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Braided brake line layout options

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Al
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PostPosted: 12:29 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Braided brake line layout options Reply with quote

I'm going to order some braided brake hoses but there is different options on the layout of the hoses and I was just wondering if there is any advantage to one layout over the other.

The standard front layout has a single hose from the master cylinder that goes down to a splitter where it connects to two hoses that run to each front caliper. Hel do a copy of this layout but it is more expensive.

They also do another layout that they call 'race layout' where two hoses run straight from the master cylinder directly down to each caliper. I guess they must some how join into each other at the master cylinder as this only as a single connection point. This layout is cheaper but to me it seems better as you have less connections Confused
Is there any other reasons why one would be better then the other?
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Last edited by Al on 13:45 - 05 Jun 2012; edited 1 time in total
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Philly46
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PostPosted: 12:34 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just go with the race setup, HEL will supply you with everything you need. Easy job.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 12:37 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

No real advantage beyond price.

Race regultions don't allow a split below the bottom yoke (not sure on the exact wording), hence race one go direct from the master cylinder. Down side is about 30% more line length to expand (unlikely to be an issue)

All the best

Keith
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 12:44 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 lines, 1 from each caliper to the m/c

its what all the winners do Thumbs Up
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 12:46 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaNsA wrote:
2 lines, 1 from each caliper to the m/c

its what all the winners do Thumbs Up


Yay I'm a winner because I do this too! Laughing
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binge
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PostPosted: 12:49 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another vote for two completely seperate lines.

The T-piece half way down the line works okay. But the above is better.

Avoid the piggyback setup like the plague though.
One line to first caliper, then double banjo across the fender to the second caliper.
Actual ball-ache to bleed!





Ben
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keggyhander
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

binge wrote:
Another vote for two completely seperate lines.

The T-piece half way down the line works okay. But the above is better.



Give me a reason.

NB: "Because race bikes do it" is not a valid answer.

I actually suspect it's something to do with pressure drop as the single pipe splits at the tee.
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T0MMY
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PostPosted: 13:42 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

keggyhander wrote:


Give me a reason.


Because race bikes do it Thumbs Up
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 13:42 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

keggyhander wrote:

I actually suspect it's something to do with pressure drop as the single pipe splits at the tee.


It is a hydraulic system, pressure should be the same through the whole system.

If properly bled the only different will be the race setup having more hose to expand and more fluid to compress (neither should be an issue), while the normal setup has more banjo bolts for air to hide in.

All the best

Keith
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keggyhander
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PostPosted: 13:56 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
If properly bled the only different will be the race setup having more hose to expand and more fluid to compress (neither should be an issue), while the normal setup has more banjo bolts for air to hide in.


If race teams aren't proficient enough to bleed a couple of banjos it's time to pack it in.
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keggyhander
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PostPosted: 13:56 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

T0MMY wrote:
keggyhander wrote:


Give me a reason.


Because race bikes do it Thumbs Up


Automatic fail Wink
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Werny
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PostPosted: 16:19 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

keggyhander wrote:
binge wrote:
Another vote for two completely seperate lines.

The T-piece half way down the line works okay. But the above is better.



Give me a reason.


Pretty sure there's no real world performance difference between 2 separate lines and the 1>2 with a T-piece.

The reason the race setup is (considered) better is because it is cheaper. That is all.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 16:25 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

keggyhander wrote:

If race teams aren't proficient enough to bleed a couple of banjos it's time to pack it in.


They don't have a choice as they can't have a split low in the system. No real benefit to this (believe the reason for the regulations is to do with perceived exposure to damage in close racing or accidents.

All the best

Keith
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 16:29 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just had the experience of two types with my rebuilt calipers, both braided HEL. One that had a line to one caliper with the other line going from that one over the mudguard to the other. The second has two separate lines coming from the M/C, one to each caliper. The second is significantly superior.
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DrDonnyBrago
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PostPosted: 16:30 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

keggyhander wrote:
I actually suspect it's something to do with pressure drop as the single pipe splits at the tee.


Incorrect.


Race bikes do it because they have to. People do it on road bikes because braided lines are sold per line - two lines from the MC is the cheapest and also the easiest to bleed.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 16:35 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

keggyhander wrote:
Give me a reason.


The single line from MC to caliper then another from caliper to caliper system is banned in racing due to its vulnerability. The reason given is an accident many years ago where a rider lost a slider which went between another riders front wheel and mudguard ripping off the mudguard and the up and over brake line. With this in mind there is to be no T piece or loop of any kind below the bottom yoke.

The two lines from the master cylinder are a lot easier to bleed than a system with a T piece as each line bleeds independent of the other whereas with a T piece they don't until fluid is below the T piece. There is no loss of pressure in a system with a T piece. The practical side of two lines is that there are less possible places for a leak and both lines can be the same for spares purposes.

HTH Thumbs Up
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 16:37 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hetzer wrote:
I've just had the experience of two types with my rebuilt calipers, both braided HEL. One that had a line to one caliper with the other line going from that one over the mudguard to the other. The second has two separate lines coming from the M/C, one to each caliper. The second is significantly superior.


It actually makes absolutely no difference how the lines are laid out to how the brakes work. The MC is still doing the same amount of work, the same amount of fluid moves and the pistons move the same amount.
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 16:40 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
Hetzer wrote:
I've just had the experience of two types with my rebuilt calipers, both braided HEL. One that had a line to one caliper with the other line going from that one over the mudguard to the other. The second has two separate lines coming from the M/C, one to each caliper. The second is significantly superior.


It actually makes absolutely no difference how the lines are laid out to how the brakes work. The MC is still doing the same amount of work, the same amount of fluid moves and the pistons move the same amount.


I know, so go figure. :shrug: Maybe the first setup didn't bleed as well.

Having said that, each caliper has an entire pipe's worth of surface area to itself, instead of sharing one between two. You'd think the limiting factor then would be the piston in the M/C, but maybe it's not as simple as that.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 16:42 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hetzer wrote:
I know, so go figure. :shrug: Maybe the first setup didn't bleed as well.


It doesn't but until people pre-fill their calipers with brake fluid when bleeding a dry system they will always have trouble bleeding anything. You did pre-fill didn't you? Wink
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 16:51 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
Hetzer wrote:
I know, so go figure. :shrug: Maybe the first setup didn't bleed as well.


It doesn't but until people pre-fill their calipers with brake fluid when bleeding a dry system they will always have trouble bleeding anything. You did pre-fill didn't you? Wink


No, I sucked the stuff through with a mini-vac to start with, then pumped the lever, tapped with a rubber mallet, went for a ride and bled again. The lever was nice and stiff in both cases but I get better braking with the second.
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Jim Mc
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

As above, brake fluid is not compressible so the split shouldn't make any difference.

I was considering switching my lines and moving to the brake setup but if it's a bit cheaper I might just stick OEM.
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Mikey3
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PostPosted: 17:05 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only difference I was told is that the single line to each caliper ones are easier to bleed rather than the lower case 'h' style layout.

They do exactly the same thing if both are done properly, otherwise they may show differences, but not due to the layout of the lines.

Mike
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weasley
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PostPosted: 18:39 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another practical consideration if changing from a split setup to a 'race' setup is having the space and hose clamps to route and secure two lines from the m/c rather than just one.
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binge
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PostPosted: 20:14 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

keggyhander wrote:

Give me a reason.


Cheaper as there are less components.
Lines are easier to run, as there is no heavy/solid unit half way down the line, which then forces the lines to change direction, being a T piece.
Easier to bleed (unless you are using garage equiptment, vac/pressure).
Look better.
Less to go wrong.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:31 - 05 Jun 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Mc wrote:
As above, brake fluid is not compressible so the split shouldn't make any difference.


Yes and no. DOT 5 (not 5.1) does seem to be regarded as slightly compressible.

All the best

Keith
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