Bring back the 250's

[Richy CB1000]

Now this sound a little on the silly side to some but I do have some reasons behind the thought of bringing back the 250cc class to 17 year olds.

Why? Well although still a new chap here I am often reading posts regarding new lads and lasses that all say the "larger" DAS type bikes actually feel safer than let's say a CB125F

125's in general are slow at getting up to traffic speed and I see this as a danger, it may also put off some people as it's perceived as looking dangerous.

This lack of speed in certain areas I think might lead to those trying to get the most out of them taking a risk here and there where if they could twist and go with the traffic they may not.

The lack of top speed cruising, let's say in reality 55-65mph does nothing to encourage people to get out on the dual carriageways off to the beach etc... a valuable area to learn to ride in preparation for motorways.

125's to me and it seems others are actually harder to control in the slower areas than a larger bike.

125's commmand I believe just because of the law on learners a high market price compared to a 400/600 class machine, this could stop some people attempting to enter motorcycling.

Many years ago..... well you all know us oldies were probably responsible for having the 250's banned due to being a bit silly here n there...

But what replaced it was a class too slow for normal general road use in 2012 and if it was just the top speed of the 250 (70's style) being anything from 90-over the ton that's easily addressed.

Now next year we're yet introducing another class of bike to complicate things more but in an attempt to get ready better for a larger 600+ machine in this stepped approach.

Sounds like to the idea has almost gone full circle but the agencies are just able to make more money this time round whereas they could remove it and just have 50cc, 250cc as it used to be, mmm did we actually have it right back then?

I think 250's should be back in for 17 year olds, and with fuel injection they're likely to have restrict just the top speed to eg. 85mph (open to suggestions) and say inc ABS etc to increase safety with the traffic flow.

They to me are a decent increase in size over the 125 and better prepare someone for the jump to a say 600 machine so safer in the transition period.

They would remove the need for the extra test proposal as they fit somewhere between the two perhaps encouraging more people onto bikes.

Studies that I read are showing more bikes is a good thing for the greenies, good for congestion, and good for awareness from the car driver.

The thought of a Triumph 250 on the market... heck I'd have one myself for popping into town etc...

Maybe just a waffle, you may think I'm mad, or a grumpy ol git, or actually talking some sense.....

Do I need to run and hide?!

[Marmalade]

I agree with you although being an oldie myself might have something to do with it and having had a few back in the day.
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[Blau Zedong]

Forget it. A 250 wouldn't be cheap enough to make it actually worth buying when for a bit more you could have something usefull like an ER6.

The only good 250's are 2T's and they are hardly likely to make a comeback in this day and age.

You only have to look at the biblical success of things like the CBF and Ninja to realise that 250's are not really a good idea.
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[Richy CB1000]

I take your point there money wise, it's very valid, but it's also aimed on the better suitability for a 17 year old to promote getting into biking rather than the more experienced type.

The current 250 lumps are obviously a flop as younger guys can't ride them and as you say someone with a test pass would obviously get a 400/600.

The current laws promote the market to some respects. I suppose I'm aiming this at learners, or second time round commuters on L plates ie do a CBT drop the second car in the family and get on a 250 for work.

Or is it I'm just saying that 15hp isn't enough for L plates, regardless of cc? Although having recently sat on a CBF125 the thought of taking that out for a ride wasn't a pleasing one.

[Barnaby]

I hear what you're saying.

BUT . . .

2 of my mates didn't survive to ride beyond 250cc, we were 17/18, our brains weren't fully developed & we thought we were immortal. Couple that to a motorcycle that would beat an 1100cc Katana in the twisties & I'm not surprised that they kicked all 17yr olds back to 125's with less power than my battery drill.

If you give an immature youth the capability of speed he will use that speed to it's maximum, your theory of a more powerfull bike being safer 'cos it's easier to flow with the traffic wouldn't work in the real world.

They'll be 'flowing' past the traffic on the back wheel, just like we did .

I'd like to see a stepped approach to training, actually having to demonstrate the ability to control whatever is the next step on the ladder to the ultimate goal of unlimited CC's with unrestricted power.

It scares me, really scares me, that someone can pass a test on a 600cc Hornet in the morning & then be let loose on an R1 in the afternoon.

I would have set power levels, coupled to minimum age requirements that would mean no 16yr old gets their hands on that R1 till they're at least 25. Likewise a beginner entering at 40yrs old, make 'em train & step up in power gradually for at least 10yrs.

Hopefully this will stop them killing themselve's within 500yds of the bike shop & bringing shit down on all us mature riders who've survived the journey from our FSIE's and can actually handle our rocketships.
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[RhynoCZ]

The difference between 125cc and 250cc four strokes is very little, and the extra money for 250cc doesn't look that reasonable if you have this bike, like a year as a starter.
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[Richy CB1000]

I also lost thankfully only one to the "red mist" scenario. They're still there on the 125's as they are at any bike level, although again point accepted the speed is lower but you could still kill yourself!

I've just had some involvement with someone on a 125 trying to help out and as a mature person wasn't approaching biking ready to wheelie. Being out and about watching a 125 basically struggling frankly in certain areas was potentially dangerous.

As they've now passed their test within 3 months they could as you say buy an R1 and die almost instantly, luckily they've chosen a CB500 but it's already been dropped perhaps due to lack of experience with the weight/power.

Could be the 125 bracket is actually promoting pass the test quickly and get a 500 scenario as soon as possible. At least we had a year on the road with a 250 and got some experience if brain was engaged! So that does support a stepped approach to some extent.

I appreciate it's a very fine balance what to do, giving the right amount of controllable power/ top speed to a younger biker, I just don't think 15hp 125cc is currently the safest way.

The difference between 125/250 is small but maybe it's enough...

[Tenko]

Does anybody know if the number of serious accidents per mile went down when the 250s were banned for 17 year olds? Surely if they didn't then there is no logical reason why youths shouldn't be allowed to ride a 250 at 17...

[Richy CB1000]

Interesting point! Forgot to add that the traffic thesedays is somewhat changed compared to "our time".

In some ways I can't believe I'm promoting this being in the training industry...

BUT car test scenario only a few weeks ago, my learner follows out behind another one obviously heading out on the same route. Mine arrives back first looking ok but a bit glum.

At the debrief examiner asks her how she thinks she did? Her reply was "OK but I over took the other learner on the dual carriageway"

Examiner replies (not quoted ) good job you did otherwise you would have failed as they were only going 50mph and it was clear, it was nice to see you make progress upto 65-70mph and perform an overtake as it was safe, so not enticing others to make an overtake such as a bus etc..

Mine passed the other failed for lack of progress.This is certainly a change in attitudes towards progress.

I do (obviously) support the youngsters, contrary to popular belief I don't come across a majority of nutters intent on a Saxo VTR and causing mayhem. I appreciate they are there but so are the traffic laws, camera's etc to curtail them.

With the costs involved thesedays, generally I find the youngsters approaching driving with a better attitude than in our day, I'm sure there are such lads n lasses in the bike world or have I got rose tinted glasses on........

[symonh2000]

Maybe not just 250's, but what about a 33bhp limit for learners irrespective of engine size, rather like those ridden by people who have passed their test on a 125...

I have a full car licence, and I find it odd that I can legally drive a 3.5 tonne lump of metal with any sized engine that I wish, and potentially cause death or injury on a large scale.
Yet on a bike I am restricted to something pretty slow, and have to do a training coursebeforehand. Yet if the worst happens I would most likely only injure myself...

It could also be age related, you could be restricted to 125's at aged 17, and 33bhp bikes at 21 as a learner.
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[hmmmnz]

we have the 250cc learner limit here in nz,
oz is the same,
the problem being is, that the new 250s are fuel injected singles or parallel twins, or the occasional v2,
compared to the late 80's early 90's il4's and screaming 2 strokes, they just don't cut the mustard,

saying that, atleast a 250 single isnt as stressed as the 125 equiv.
and would happily do 70 with out it screaming its tits off
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[RhynoCZ]

Here in CZE we've got 125cc 11kw bikes for 16yrs old riders and 25kw bikes for 18+ and open when you're 21. I can say that this 25kw restriction doesn't work at all. You can buy essentially whatever you want + it has to have ''max power: 25.0kw'' written in papers. So there's no problem to ride e.g. TL1000 when you're 18

This all is going change to EU specs.

My starter bike, when I was 18, was a '88 GPz550, ''restricted to 25kw'', in fact it had full power and went over 120mph and got from 0 to 60 like in 5 secs. And I even know people with GSXR750, ZX6R, CBR600RR, even a GSXR1300 and ZX12R and so on with the same number in their papers

My point here is, that the only reasonable restriction of a motorcycle is to restrict its displacement/cc. You just can't get 100bhp or 90Nm from a 125cc engine. That's my humble opinion
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[Andy J]

The Ninja 250r is very succesful, although personally I think it looks a bit shit in comparison to the YZF R125, or any other bigger sports bike. You're still looking at around 2.5k minimum second hand as well for the ninja

[Mushroom]

[Barnaby]

[Barnaby]

[Teflon-Mike]

17 year old's CAN ride 250's they can even ride ruddy litre bikes if they want!

THEY JUST HAVE TO PASS A FUCKING TEST!

What's the 'problem'?

Oh! I want my cake AND eat it! Horrible nasty government people wont let me have what I want, for nothing, for free, no effort, no thought!

Yeah! THAT is why we have 'Learner-Restrictions'

And the 15bhp limit, which was what the 250 learner-law imagines, considering typical 250 of that era to be a BSA C15, until the hi-po two-strokes became the norm not the exception, and which brought about the 125 limit, in consequence!

15bhp is MORE than 'adequete' for a learner. Its enough to propell a bike to the maximum legal speed limit in this country; its enough to make it 'useful' and do pretty much anything you would 'want' a motorbike to do... maybe not 'comfortably', but its a LEARNER bike.... an introduction to the game, if you want more take the fucking tests and you can have it!

MEANWHILE time on a lightweight that ISN'T so easy to ride is likely to teach you something.... LIKE how to effect good balance so you dont wobble, and how to make the most of what power you do have, by 'riding' the thing not just 'squidding' everywhere.

up till NOW, its a 'good' restriction, and as said, does NOT deny any-one who WANTS a bigger bike having one.... unless they are too lazy or incompetant to take the tests.

3rd Directive is another matter! THAT forces 17 year olds to stick to 125's for 2 years or more... but does little to encourage them to get tested and get a full licence, merely encourages them to stick to L-Plating. BUT they still have bikes as fast as can be legally used on british roads that are not 'toys' and are more than capable little machines of delivering a LOT of fun and usefulness if you use them right.
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[DrDonnyBrago]

I'd like a sporty, peaky, small capacity bike with a huge redline, modern handling, and that isn't ancient/expensive to own/impossible to get parts for. Something that requires it's tits to be revved off to get anywhere quickly and by the time you have changed up a few gears near the redline you aren't topping 120mph and about to lose your licence.

Modern 250 "sports" bikes are nothing of the sort, modern 125s are just commuter bikes and between 250 and 600 is a plethora of boring commuters. By the time you get to a revvy 600 you end up with 120bhp+ which is more than I want or need.


Small capacity bikes worthy of being called sports bikes are distinctly missing in the current line up. Really can't see anything that I'd be willing to pay new bike money for. In fact the line up is so shit, I am anticipating the release of a Chinese 400cc triple for a bit of variety in the market.

[pepperami]

No logic regading the license issues for me, but I like 250`s,.
Why? personally for me, mine was cheaper to insure than my 600, does`nt drink as much go-juice, & means I have a bike I can take out in the shitty weather and not worry.

Out on the open roads it will get spanked by the bigger bikes but hey-ho I can live with that.
In town I can make nearly as good progress as 90% of any other bike regardless of cc (no that is not a challenge or a boast) due to the congestion/traffic.

And any way surely the more types of bikes and different types of cc bikes on our roads the better?.
You never know it may just encourage a few more people to think about riding/getting a bike
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[Richy CB1000]

Again I take the points above, not a problem. I suppose as always certain things fit some and not others.

Most of my thought train was down to the fact this person middle 20's was struggling on a 125 and it looked at times dangerous. So extra training was taken by a professional body, not me!

Result riding is improving to a decent enough "get out there standard".

They did take the test on that 125 and pass, great!

At home was an old 250 waiting, takes a ride out just to start to get used to it what's the first comeent they make?

Basically they were that of how much easier it was to control, how much safer they felt with the flow at roundabouts etc... now that 250's got 23-25 odd horsepower so not a great deal more but perhaps just enough to tip the edge to get more riders into biking agreed initially without taking a test and just L plating but I don't see that as an issue.

Now this person has is no way become a far superior rider nor gained any more experience within the time difference of an hour before and an hour after the test but was safer on the road.

I'm not propsing let em loose on 250LC's KH triples and the like (how did any of us survive!) just perhaps a tad more for them to start with with as I suggested limited top speeds, ABS and the like.

I still think general riding including dual carriageways, encouragement to get people into biking and all the other stuff, training tests etc... might be better served by having I dunno a 250 or 20 odd hp limit.

I just saw that person getting into biking through the 125 route and at times it was frankly dangerous. Just another 10mph or 5hp might tip the balance coupled with a more stringent CBT or whatever else mght be needed.

Anyways I've had my say, thanks for the comments, it has made me think more about something that's been stuck in my head for a few weeks.

[TamaJosh]

As someone who's just passed their test and aged 18 I can say that the current rules are perfect.

My CBF took me up to 70 for dual carriageways, was comfortable and cheap to insure and fuel. After passing my test a month ago, I got a Ninja 250r and I wouldn't want anything faster right now. People will say it's not powerful enough to be a true sportsbike but in my opinion, the thought of an 18 year old on a 600 is just nuts. My 250 can reach 110mph on paper, realistically it would probably reach just over 100 but on normal roads I'd never want to go any faster than 90 and can't see why someone with a year's riding experience should!

Plenty of fun can be had on a small bike, even on my CBF125 I had a great time going round North Yorkshire

I have this 250 for two years at least, it pulls like hell at the higher revs and corners nicely, it's a good introduction to sportsbikes.

Isn't that the whole point of training and tests, to INTRODUCE people to riding? That's why the restrictions are as they are now.


Next year looks crappy though.
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[Teflon-Mike]

[Kickstart]

Hi

I would say the current limits are not that bad. 11kW is enough to keep up with traffic and enough to out accelerate most cars easily.

Possibly with a large rider the issue with a 125 is how much the lanky bods weight pushes up the centre of gravity. When I was doing my part 1 many years ago there was a guy there on a CG125 who was really struggling with low speed control. Problem seemed to be that with a top box and tall screen on it.

My view is the bigger potential issue is how quickly people want to jump from a learner bike. All that seems to be being done about that is making a licence a long bureaucratic nightmare to get.

All the best

Keith
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