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Trasler
Scooby Slapper
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Alpha-9
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Trasler
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| kotachi |
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kotachi
Traffic Copper
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 Posted: 20:25 - 25 Jul 2012  Post subject: |
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Filtering is, I believe, illegal in the US, but it's not in the UK!
In fact it's one of the main reasons to get a bike, London traffic 
____________________
CBT done - 24/03/2012, theory test done - 03/04/2012.. Mod 1 done -26/06/2012, Mod 2 done - 29/06/2012. Current steed: Cage.
Suntan Sid said: "Look at it this way, your employer wants to pay you the minimum amount, it thinks it can get away with, and extract from you the maximum amount of graft. Ergo it's your responsibility to ensure that karma is restored and you do as little work as you think you can get away with, for the maximum amount of money." |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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Posted: 20:26 - 25 Jul 2012  Post subject: |
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'Under-Taking' IS illegal... there are merely a few exceptions where it isn't.
If the vehicle on the right is 'stationary' or during 'stop-start' traffic on a multi-lane road, being two main ones.
OK.... been corrected on this becouse they have adoptted the term in the Highway-Code, but strictly there is NO SUCH THING as 'Filtering'... what it IS is '"Over-Taking"
So... ponder your situation, and change the 'name' of what you are doing from 'Filtering'... call it 'Over-Taking'......
Now ask yourself would you 'Over-Take' in the manner and situation you describe?
THAT small question of 'defanition' often answers 90% of queries about 'filtering''!
Ie: call it over-taking, and you wouldn't do it! Call it 'filtering' and suddenly you think it may be 'OK'!
Passing o the near-side..... No.... NO, THRICE NO!
Just DONT do it. Cagers DO NOT look out of us, and even the best of them WILL NOT be looking to their left for us!
Its just NOT worth even trying... leave it to the suicicide Ped-Boi's.... few seconds travel time it might save you IS NOT worth the risk!
Front of queue, between car and 'keep-left' bollard/divider.
THAT is a BIG danger-Zone....
Risk is that the car THERE will be looking to the traffic on the round about, as you aproach you will be driving into thier blind spot, and at such close quarter they will NOT be likely to see you until you have ridden past thier wing mirror.
If the vehicle is a short nosed van, that's likely to be a VERY big blind-spot.....
And risk is that they will start to pull away BEFORE you reach the give way line, AND they are likely to 'veer' closing that gap between thier vehicle & kurb YOU are heading into, AS you enter it.....
Big BIG danger zone....
Next, IF you avoid hazard and make it to the line, blocking thier line of sight you WILL piss them off, two-fold, foirst for having the audacity to steal thier place at head of queue, second frustrating thier line of sight, to see if they can pull away....
Off the line, even on a BIG powerful bike, a tranny van can pose a big threat to you for a good half car length and particularly on a round-about or worse a short T-Jucntion or X-Road, where an S-Bend puts them behind on the first longer curve, but then brings them parallel or ahead on second shorter....
You are at inredible risk of being side-swiped into oblivion TRYING to 'force' a second lane in the gaps.....
Its 'Over-Taking', and law says that ANY over-taking manouver is deemed a 'hazardouse manouver' undertaken at riders risk....
Ie fact you are trying to pass them, fact there is no specific lane for you to pass them, YOU are in the wrong as soon as you start.
Every situation is different, and this is where the buck-falls.... its YOUR CALL, and for YOU to assess each and every situation, AS you encounter it, with what YOU can see 'on the ground'.
I cant give you a panacea-precription' that will work in all cases!
You NEED to use your head....
Default is its OVER TAKING..... think of it as such and ask WOULD you 'over-take' in this situation?
THEN look at the risks you are going in to.
And remember, just becouse you can, dont mean its a good idea.
Them cagers are ever more imaginative in thier homicidal tendancies, and provoked THEY are the one with a safety cage around them, YOU are the one who'll be hurt.....
I cant say 'never', but I would say 'Discretion is the better part of Valour'!
For the sake of a few seconds travel time, against risk of not getting there, 'filtering' is SO often a fools expedience....
I do it, BUT, its time and place, and you need to build up experience of where that time and place may be.... it is ONE place you really cant afford to learn by mistakes!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Trasler |
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Trasler
Scooby Slapper
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Trasler
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Turkish
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| daemonoid |
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daemonoid
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| wayne.p |
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wayne.p
Nitrous Nuisance
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daemonoid
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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| Posted: 20:50 - 25 Jul 2012 Post subject: |
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| Trasler wrote: | Oh no, i know filtering is legal in the UK, but it does depend on road markings and was unsure with the curb, also undertaking while the traffic are stopped. :/ |
Passing a 'stationary' vehicle on your right, is only 'notionally' legal.
Provision is specifically for if a car is stopped on a main highway and indicating to turn right..... holding up traffic.
If its only YOU its holding up..... yeah, go past it, IF safe to do so....
If there is another car behind..... DONT.... that car is a double hazard, and likely to only be stationary in indecission, and if the gap is beg enough for you to go through, good chance that that car driver is looking at it, and trying to weigh up if they can.... and sods law says they will decide to pull into it JUST as you do.....
Heading dangerousely into the realms of suggesting precription..... If there is more than one car 'stopped' DONT pass them on the near-side.
Coming up to a junction; queue of stationary traffic; all waiting the lead vehicle.....
Technically legal to pass on the near-side, IF you are turning 'left'....
Who is to say though that lead car isn't also turning left..... and you will both be plotting a collission course into that bit of road space.
But again; hundred other hazards...
Pedestrians, seeing stopped cars, steo off pavement, or run through the cars not expecting YOU to be between cars and pavement.
Oncoming cars.... particularly if there are parked cars on opposite side of the road, likely to result in car in 'stopped' queue veering into the kerb to make space for oncoming traffic hogging the line.... straight into your path.
Cyclists, cutting in, to use that bit of space you are planning on, and often coming in from the pavement.
List goes on and on....
BASICALLY anywhere you are likely to consider 'filtering', is most likely to be a place that's frought with multiple 'hazards' that it would not be prudent to try 'over taking'.
Back to the caveot of law: its a 'hazardous' maneuver undertaken at riders risk.....
You need eyes in your arse-hole, ears and elbows! You need to have your wits about you to the extent of the Wheeja-Senses, tuned to perfection, and the 'idiot-anticipator' working over-time!
I'll often filter SUPER-SLOW weaving into gaps between cars wiggling handle-bars to get attension in rearviews with the head-lamp, AND reving (open) pipe to make my presence and intentions known, covering brakes and horn all at the same time!
And I'll still 'hang-back' from many situations that I 'might' filter.... because the odds are stacked too far against me!
Its all down to confidence and knowing where the line between being assertive and beeing fool-hardy is....
BUT, finding that level of 'discretion' is the hard bit.... I've had twenty odd years to attune it.... and I may be a little on the over-cautiouse side these days..... certainly wasn't when I commuted every day.... but then looking back on all the 'heart stoppa' moments I was in the margin and nearly DIDN'T get away with it?
Its a skill you have to develop, like most, and its ALL down to judgement.... and starting with that "Well if I call it OVERTAKING..." is a prettyt good start to build it on!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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| Posted: 21:12 - 25 Jul 2012 Post subject: |
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| daemonoid wrote: | Mike, please research those 'facts' you've mentioned at the start of your post. Your posts carry a lot of weight purely due to length and your massive number of blobs, but in this case you are totally incorrect. You're doing a disservice to yourself and the noobs in this section posting such badly researched parp. |
Not quite; I simply said that under-taking, is illegal, with exceptions where 'passing' on the near-side isn't 'undertaking', and you have provided the statute that makes it illegal, if not a specific offence. Whats the problem?
If you are talking about comment there is no such thing as 'filtering'; mentioned I have been corrected on this, as up until I think five or six years ago the term was not used in either RTA or High-Way code.
I believe it is now used and defined... and its defined AS 'And Over-Taking Manouver'......
Which is symantics; but 'idea' is to get that 'message' across to a newbie... 'filtering' is an OVERTAKE.... think of it as such, take 'filtering' out of the vocabulary... you will consider the matter a LOT differently.
SO MANY times, people describe what they were doing before an accident as 'ONLY 'filtering'....... as though its inconsequential.....
Change the way they describe it...... "You were making a 'multiple' vehicle 'over-take' at 30mph in a built up residential street"
"Yeah.... Filtering!"
"No! You were making a 'multiple' vehicle 'over-take' at 30mph in a built up residential street, with parked cars on either side"
"Hmm.... well, if you put it like that.... But.... its still LEGAL!"
"Yeah, MAY be legal.... but its still over-taking! Change the words, use mine, and if you had thought Oh, a seven car over-take, in a 30mph limit, with parked cars either side... would you NOT have thought a little more about it?!"
That is almost exact conversation I had with my eldest!
Wrote of his RF9, and a Fiat Multipla Taxi, and added a few more screws and plates to his extensive collection!....... "But I was ONLY filtering! Wasn't like I was hooning it!"
Seven car OVER_TAKE in 30mph built up residential area, with parked cars both sides.....
Completely changes the 'context' doesn't it?
"Well, if you put it like that!" He said...
"Yeah... you might still have a bike, and not be hobbling so much!"
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| daemonoid |
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daemonoid
World Chat Champion
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| Posted: 21:31 - 25 Jul 2012 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Not quite; I simply said that under-taking, is illegal, with exceptions where 'passing' on the near-side isn't 'undertaking', and you have provided the statute that makes it illegal, if not a specific offence. Whats the problem?
If you are talking about comment there is no such thing as 'filtering'; mentioned I have been corrected on this, as up until I think five or six years ago the term was not used in either RTA or High-Way code.
I believe it is now used and defined... and its defined AS 'And Over-Taking Manouver'...... |
Both! The highway code is not a statute, it's a bunch of recommendations combined with some other legal knowledge. 'must not' means it's illegal. 'do not', 'should not' etc. mean various levels of recommendation but not a law! So be clear, undertaking is not illegal, it may be contributory to another charge (say 'without due care').
Filtering is also not an overtaking manoeuvre, some things are similar but even the mention of 'in slow moving traffic' in every case (see 211 too) hints at the different rules expected for filtering. There are some rules in common with overtaking but classing the two the same will only cause confusion - this is a good article about the differences https://www.motorcycling-uk.com/training/motorcycle_filtering.htm
Note if you combined both your assertions then the exceedingly common practice of filtering between lanes would be illegal, which it quite clearly isn't when you look at HC:211 where it discusses filtering between lanes.
You clearly go to a lot of effort in writing posts, just wish you'd fact check them a bit more. I hold you to a higher standard than many of the twunts on here 
____________________
current: ducati monster 750
past: hyosung gt250r, bajaj pulsar 180, hyosung gt 125 comet
@thomasgarrard | www.straitjkt.com | www.racingseven.com |
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
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| hodgerydoo |
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hodgerydoo
Two Stroke Sniffer
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| Posted: 22:16 - 25 Jul 2012 Post subject: |
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hodgerydoo
Two Stroke Sniffer
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| Posted: 22:27 - 25 Jul 2012 Post subject: |
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Can I chip in with another noobie Q? My commute brings me to this situation every morning.
2 lanes going my way, 1 lane going in opposite direction. Inside lane 1 free-flows while lane 2 queues for right turn signal, I'm going right, signal is short and only lets a few cars through so the queue is long.
I want to get to the front of right turning queue, should I go between lane 2 and the oncoming traffic to the front or go up lane 1 then move into lane 2 at the front?  |
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| Going |
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Going
Nearly there...
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| daemonoid |
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daemonoid
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daemonoid
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
nimbA
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Posted: 20:21 - 26 Jul 2012  Post subject: |
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"Illegal" is defined in an Act of Parliament, or Statute. Statutory instruments, aka regulations, rules, codes, can define the details of the offence, and either can refer to the other, but I'm not aware of any combination of statute and regulation that makes it an offence to overtake on the left / undertake, whatever you want to call it.
Please, please don't claim that anything is illegal, ever, without being absolutely sure what makes it so. We are drowning in a swamp of legislation; it's hard enough for honest citizens - and coppers - to even be aware of what's legal or not without us inventing new offences where none exist.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| jimac |
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jimac
Two Stroke Sniffer
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| Posted: 14:26 - 27 Jul 2012 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | "Illegal" is defined in an Act of Parliament, or Statute. Statutory instruments, aka regulations, rules, codes, can define the details of the offence, and either can refer to the other, but I'm not aware of any combination of statute and regulation that makes it an offence to overtake on the left / undertake, whatever you want to call it.
Please, please don't claim that anything is illegal, ever, without being absolutely sure what makes it so. We are drowning in a swamp of legislation; it's hard enough for honest citizens - and coppers - to even be aware of what's legal or not without us inventing new offences where none exist. |
Indeed. There isn't even a specific law that requires you to drive/ride on the left. |
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krytenboog
Nova Slayer
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| wayne.p |
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wayne.p
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| Posted: 17:05 - 27 Jul 2012 Post subject: |
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but, as it is in the HC to keep left, then it would be taken as dangerous driving / due care if you drove on the right?
& at the filtering link, VERY good read... well worth the time...  |
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Rogerborg
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 13 years, 151 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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