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| sheriffjonny |
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sheriffjonny
Nitrous Nuisance
Joined: 17 Feb 2012
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 Posted: 22:12 - 02 Aug 2012  Post subject: what would you be riding on a restricted license >£1500? |
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Right been on the cbf 125 for about 6 months now. I really do love that little bike after sorting the intial niggles out and changing the tyres.
I had originally planned to ride this until i booked in for DAS, but alas, I haven't got the annual leave or the money, so thought i'd be better off doing the restricted test on my own bike, which i'm very comfortable on. I'm not too worried about screaming about on a litre bike at the moment, so 33bhp will be enough fo me for awhile, and if I can learn withing myself on that as i have on the little 125, hopefully I'll be more ready for a bigger bike in 2 years.
So theory is passed and i'm looking for test dates now. SO I've got around £1500 to get a new bike. I'm searching ebay fror 33bhp bikes but not many come up, what bikes should i be searching for that may not be advertised primarily as a 33bhp bike, or that are easier to restrict and relatively cheap within my budget?
Any advice/comments/slagging off for not using the search facilty properly accepted and welcomed
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Current bike........'09 Honda CBF 125, seeking new big bike............New bike found '01 Honda VFR 800 |
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snikks
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| Posted: 22:51 - 02 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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Fazer 600 (  from me), SV650, Hornet, GPZ500, GS500, ER500 tend to be the mainstay of beginner bikes. All restrict pretty well and fairly easily, most you can find kits to restrict cheaply on ebay if you have a look, and DIY it.
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- CBT: 02/01/11 Theory: 26/04/11 Mod 1: 19/05/11 Mod 2: 19/08/11
- 2007 Honda XL125V Varadero (Sold), 1999 Yamaha FZS600 Fazer (Sold), 2001 CBR600F |
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sheriffjonny
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| waffles |
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waffles
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sheriffjonny
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 06:37 - 03 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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One of the twins.
Ultimte decission would probably be what came along in best nick at best price, & I'd keep my options open.
My favourite would be an SV650, but I'd look hard for ER5's, as they are often bigger bargains.
Plenty GPz500's around, as 'default' 33bhp restrict bike, if I couldn't find something better.
I dont really like the CB500, but worthy alternative, as is GS500.
But getting 'silly' there would be a fair few googlies I'd be looking at, like Moto-Morini 3 1/2's and Moto-Guzi v50's, or the 'boring' BMW f650.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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ThoughtContro...
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| thepuma |
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thepuma
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thepuma
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ThoughtContro...
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| Posted: 08:34 - 03 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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| thepuma wrote: | The CBR250R and NINJA250 seem popular in that category as they don't need restricting/unrestricting and seem to hold their value well. |
Both are overpriced for what they are. There's no second hand CBR250s around, so you will be paying new prices. It only produces around 26hp, which you may find very limiting (or boring depending on your POV), especially if you want to do some long distance rides that involve motorways. The Ninja is bang on 33bhp, but again expensive. You may end up working that engine fairly hard, which may make those touted mpg figures not as impressive as you'd have hoped. Also the used market prices may suffer in the future when the new A2 licence restrictions become 46bhp, instead of the current 33bhp.
Get an SV, Fazer, Hornet or similar. The bike will be cheaper, or you'll get a mint used one for the same money, and you get a second lease of life out of the bike when your restriction period is over.
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Cadbury
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| N cee thirty |
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N cee thirty
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M1ghtyDUck
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L-Jam
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el_oso
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janner_10
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| Posted: 12:14 - 03 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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Big thumbs up for the Fazer - damn fine first bike. I miss mine 
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Ribenapigeon
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Themightyimp
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| Posted: 12:52 - 03 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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Another for the Fazer from me.
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 13:15 - 03 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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| Boozehawk wrote: | If your not in a hurry for a big bike then I htink its worth hanging on for a good deal on a 33BHP machine next year. |
I think thats a bit of a falce hope TBH - I don't see the value of the modern 250's dropping THAT much.
I know Roger says they are likely to become almost valueless, BUT... Its supply and demand.
The 33bhp licence restriction bolstered the value of the 250's which had languished for years in the bottom of the bargain basement.
BUT that limit going up wont change much.
First of all, there are likely to be MORE restricted licence holders for the next two years than we have had for many years.....
(as so many people 'rush' to get licences under current rules)
So they wont 'loose' the demand for at least two years until that end-stop 'spike' of new riders has ridden out their restrictions.
And if ANYTHING there will be MORE demand for them, from people that don't want to get bigger bikes and restrict, by dint of that end-stop spike.
BUT, not many will buy 'new' so more are going to be chasing second hand. So 2nd hand values of the newer 250's MAY actually go up!
We then have question mark lingering over access to A2.
SUGGESTED that there MAY be some 'direct access' to A2..... but as yet, that's mute, letter of 3rd Directive says that you cant do A2 'test' until you have held A1 for two years....
If there is a direct access to A2, then the 250's will still be A2 eligible. A2 may allow a 45bhp bike, but there are still remarkably few of those around. Only 500 commuter twin that would drop under the limit is the GS500, everything else would still need restricting.
So the 250's would still appeal to A2 licence holders that don't want the hassle of restricting.
Again, Rogers suggestion that 'most' riders having had to test on an A2 bike, wont want to go 'backwards' and ride a lesser machine, I don't see being that big an influence.
A2 test requirement is for something almost bang on limit; having ridden pretty much the most powerful they can on test, almost everything they could ride on entitlement gained will be 'less'.
Especiacially as the A2 adds impediment to 'restriction' that anything that is restricted cant be restricted from more than 90bhp, basically stopping them getting anything even remotely 'sporty' in the 600 class built since the early 90's! & Very few 'fours cylinder' bikes will be eligible for restriction.
We 'suspect' that there will be a lower uptake of people going for A2 licence, which will probably 'damp' the end-stop spike somewhat, and may deflate the market somewhat, as more ride it out on 125's....
BUT, that is presuming that when legislation hits it does demand tripple testing..... IF they manage to frame this 'upgrade by training' scheme, and get it through, and make it workable.... we might NOT see such a drop off in restricted licence take-up.
There's a lot of variables in the 'Demand' equation.....
Meanwhile on the 'supply' side..... the 250's have never sold in big numbers, and they are not 'cheap' bikes.
If people cant get sensible money for them when offered for sale, a lot will simply hang on to them, as they are cheap to run. Either as hack commuters or second bikes.
People wont just 'dump' them for fire-sale prices JUST because fewer people want them / value them... they wanted them, and they will hold out for best price or not sell.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Slacker24seve...
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| Posted: 13:49 - 03 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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I sold my mechanically sound but mildly crashed 600 Hornet for 1250, more than enough change to knock some restrictors up.
Having said that, I'd have a CB500 or something more interesting like a CB400 or 250 Hornet if it was restricted.
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Selling a hack/winter bike for less than a grand? PM me.
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Ribenapigeon
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jasond
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 07:46 - 04 Aug 2012  Post subject: |
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| Boozehawk wrote: | So if 250s are a bit of a dead duck and not going to come donw in price what are good machines to restrict to 33BHP. I might go the restriction route but I dont want a dog of a machine wheezing along with big washer in its carb. Also does restricting damage the engine. |
Not sure that 250's are a dead duck; they are just in a bit of a vacuum in the market, and have perverse ecconomics working against them.
Restricting gives more options. You can take almost any bike and artificially restrict it to 33bhp. Means you have much wider choice of machines.
Restricting needn't 'wreck' the engine. But depends what you do to it to restrict power.
Ill conceived carburetor or exhaust mods, whether for more or less power, or simply sound or style, is what is most likely to 'wreck' an engine, 'mechanically'. More likely though, changing the variables you will 'ruin' the power delivery, and possibly effect 'rideability', if you put big flat-spots in the power-curve or similar.
However, if you have a CV carbed bike, and restrict with a 'flow-restriction' - Ie washer in the carburettor inlet..... the more usual method of restriction.... what you do is limit the amount of charge fed to the engine.... hence the power it can make.
Carburettor, metering fuel dependant of air-flow, ought to keep the same 'metering-profile' as for unrestricted bike, so in effect, the restriction simply 'clips' the top off the Wide-Open-Throttle power curve.
At lower revs and part throttle then, the restrictor may make no difference at all to the way the bike rides or how the engine behaves.
Only as revs increase and wider throttle openings are used will it come into 'play' impeding flow, as you reach the 33bhp power limit, at which point, it will stop the engine flowing more charge, same way as not having the throttle wide open.
https://www.dynojet.com/graphs/GS500F.jpg
Randomly grabbed power chart for a GS500. From units on the bottom being in mph, I'm guessing its taken from an inertial rolling road dyno, and power is 'corrected' crank bhp, as book says bike makes 50bhp@.9,200rpm
So if you look at the chart, you get 33bhp at WOT at about 7,200 rpm
A restriction washer will then start 'supressing' air-flow, a little before this, and then 'clip' beyond, so where the un-restricted power curve caries on climbing, the restricted bike will go pretty much 'flat' accross the top, and maintain 33bhp right the way almost to the red line, where power drops off again.
GS500 is a pretty 'nice' bike to restrict; Its a fairly 'soft' tuned engine, with nice gently ramping power curve and a farly round power peak. ie: curve ramps smootly and progressively, and theres 'almost' full power for many revs either side of maximum.
Power peak is also not hugely higher than the restricted power level you want. book says 50, we want 33, so you are only restricting it by 33%, and will remain most of the charecter of the bike.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_K5H5ZY-5C0g/TRIDI64AnLI/AAAAAAAAAAk/nXBP1LYdPxs/s640/BDK+Race.jpg
For comparison, this is the dyno-trace for a Yamaha TZR250, two-stroke, that again standard makes about the same 50ish bhp, but look at the shape of teh power curve.
Power builds up from tick-over much more slowly, then ramps more quickly from about 6K revs, 'surging' to peak at 9K....... 'The power-band'.
33bhp, comes up again at about 7Krpm, but that is 'just' as the engine is starting to get into its stride on that two-stroke-surge.... and THAT is exactly where restriction would clip it....
This would make for a quite frustrating ride, as you would not have 'as much' power at lower rpm, and 'just' as the bike starts to do its 'ting'... you chop its balls of and stop it doing it!
Bieks also a two-stroke, wich relies on harmonic tuning of the exhaust and uses plain 'slide' carburettors, so you would not be able to use simple orafice restrictors on this kind of bike, it would require much more 'involved' engineering to 'de-tune' the engine down to the power limit; and to do it reasonably well and maintain some charecter, you would probably have to change the reed-block, the exhaust and teh carburettors, possibly the ignition.
And JUST for lols....
https://images.sportrider.com/bikes/146_z+2001_gsx_1300r_hayabusa_dyno_chart+.jpg
Hyabusa Power-Trace....
Nice 'fat' power curve ramping from tick-over, to a peak of almost 160bhp....
You COULD restrict this bike, and CV carbed, use simple orafice restrictors....
But look at it.... starts at 2K and there is a 'lead-leap' from virtially nothing to, oh, about 35bhp at a mere 2,200rpm!
You would be clipping te power curve almost before it even began!
Would make for interesting riding..... you would have almost a completely 'flat' power curve, and the throttle would almost do NOTHING, becouse your restriction washers would be clipping power BASICALLY at 'tick-over' air-flow!
Be like trying to ride every whithout touching the throttle, modulating speed purely on the clutch & brakes!
So bikes that restrict 'better' tend to be those where the 'restriction' is simpler..... and you cant get simpler, really than a washer in the intake of a CV carbed bike, and obviousely a single to twin, is going to be easier to restrict than a four, and probably be less significantly 'effected'.
Next, bikes that have a 'softer' power delivery to start with, will tend to restrict 'better', clipping the power curve, you'll stand less chance of lopping it off in its prime and changing the way it rides 'as much'.
And obviousely, the closer to the restricted power they are to start with, less restriction that has to be applied, less you will effect the 'nature' of the machine.
This is why the twins are more popular restricted bikes.
Hence: GS500; ER5; GPZ500S; CB500; SV650; NTV650; Transalp;
But whole point of restriction is opening up bike choice, you COULD restrict a 'busa... be horrible BUT you could restrict one, if you wanted, all down to your preferences and budget.
Like I said, I quite like the idea of an SV650, which is reported to restrict well, and Suzuki do offer factory restriction kits for.
Its actually a bike I have considered on unrestricted licence, as a slightly sporty 'Budget' all-rounder, with notion in the back of my head that IF we can get snowie through tests, make a nice 33bhp restrict for her to have a play on.
ER5, is my other favourite, and if I was going out specifically to get a bike for Snowie on 33-restrict, as an every day, all-round commuter, probably be my top choice. Simple twin-shock chassis, there's not a lot to go wrong or have to fix, or overhaul on them. GS with air-cooled motor probably slightly 'more' bargain commuter freindly, and a DAS bike favourite more of them around; though many of them aren't much cop. ER5's when you find them, tend to be a lot 'tidier', I think more of them originally private buys. But swings and roundabouts either which way.
Being a little bit less sensible, and opening up the options which is WHY you go restricted in the first place, Snowie likes the Guzzi V50.... bit of an antique, and not got CV carbs..... would take more to restrict one..... but what the heck.... whole point of restricting is so you can have a bike you WANT not 'all you are allowed'.
If I was 19 again? Bike I ACTUALLY likes when I was 19 curiously, and still do! Moto-Guzi V35 Imola! 34.5bhp.... wouldn't take much to restrict THAT would it! Nor would its similar era rival the Moto-Morini 350, at 35bhp! Though I suspect, being beligerant (even more so as a teenager!), I would probably want a full-power Cagiva Mito!
So really what bike would YOU want?
Then lets look at how easy it may restrict, and how 'well' it might take restriction.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| ThoughtContro... |
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ThoughtContro...
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| Posted: 08:18 - 04 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Though I suspect, being beligerant (even more so as a teenager!), I would probably want a full-power Cagiva Mito!
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Would you even get away with a full power Mito? Is it under 0.16hp/kg?
I notice no one mentions the XJ600. They always seem to come up second hand dirt cheap, and get slated as bland and unexciting, but as a cheap first bike I'd have thought a restricted one would be ideal, certainly no worse than a GS. You wouldn't end up being so heartbroken if you ended up chucking it down the road as you would for some flashy plastic thing. Probably wouldn't appeal at all to your typical under 25 year old, but then I don't think most of em strictly adhere to the 33bhp limit to start with.
If you choose an SV, the later 2003+ models are fuel injected, so there's no carbs to fiddle with. You just swap out the ECU for a restricted one, an absolute doddle of a job*, although the part is likely to be fairly expensive unless you can pick a second user one up from the likes of ebay or the SV650.org forum.
* see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXc0EcpeQpg - no need for garage fees for that one if spannering scares you off.
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The last post was made 13 years, 170 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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