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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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 Posted: 19:24 - 13 Aug 2012  Post subject: Oh, *there's* the 3DLD implementation! |
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Hah, got it.
The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 which amend The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999.
It's much as we'd expect. Here are the parts that interest me.
| MV(DL)(A)R 2012 wrote: |
“A3 motorcycle” means a motor bicycle—
(a)of a power exceeding 35 kilowatts or with a power to weight ratio exceeding 0.2 kilowatts per kilogram; or
(b)of a power not exceeding 35 kilowatts with a power to weight ratio not exceeding 0.2 kilowatts per kilogram and derived from a vehicle of more than double its power; |
A3? Where are they getting that from? 2006/126/EC defines A1, A2 and A, not A3. Eh, OK then.
| MV(DL)(A)R 2012 wrote: |
(e)for the definition of “maximum net power output” substitute—
““maximum net power output”, in relation to an engine, means the maximum net power output measured under full engine load”; |
Hmm. Any engineering types - Teflon Mike, Teflon Mike, Teflon Mike - know the significance of "under full load" in terms of testing bikes?
Ah, this looks good, significant word highlighted
| MV(DL)(A)R 2012 wrote: |
(2C) For the age of 19 in relation to item 3(2) [A2 motorcycle] and the age of 24 in relation to item 3(3) [A3 motorcycle] in the table in paragraph 2(a) there is substituted the age of 17 where a person passed a test before 19th January 2013 in respect of a motor bicycle (other than a motor bicycle with an engine the maximum net power output of which is 11 kilowatts or less) and the standard access period has expired. |
As I read that, it confirms that anyone who gets the A<=25kW license under the current regime will still be given full "A" entitlement (of which A2 and A3 are sub categories) after 2 years.
... but then I read this, again the interesting word...
| MV(DL)(A)R 2012 wrote: | (2E) For the age of 24 in relation to item 3(3) [A3 motorycles] in the table in paragraph 2(a) there is substituted—
(c)the age of 17 in a case where—
(ii)a person—
(aa)passes an appropriate driving test after 18th January 2013 on a vehicle of a class in category B or sub-category A2 or A3; and
(bb)was entitled, before 19th January 2013, to a licence to drive a motor bicycle with an engine having a maximum net power output exceeding 25 kilowatts or a power to weight ratio exceeding 9.16 [sic] kilowatts per kilogram. |
Say what? If you already had a license for >25kW (i.e. full A) before 19th January 2013 and you pass a car or big bike test after that date, you can ride a full power bike from 17 upwards.
I can't parse that any way that makes sense. Go, big brains, go.
It then talks about "a provisional licence which is restricted to the driving of A2 motorcycles;" and "a provisional licence which is restricted to the driving of A1 motorcycles", so I guess no more "provisional A" entitlement, and that probably confirms that A2 test bikes will need to be strictly in the 25-35kW range inclusive. A big screw you to training schools then.
But of course it wouldn't be a proper Regulation without muddying the waters a bit, would it?
| MV(DL)(A)R 2012 wrote: | [Minimum test vehicles]
“A1 = An A1 motorcycle without side-car, with a cubic capacity of 120 cubic centimetres and capable of an unassisted speed of 90 kilometres per hour on the level.
A2 = An A2 motorcycle without side-car, with a cylinder capacity of 400 cubic centimetres and a power of 25 kilowatts.
A3 = An A3 motorcycle without side-car, with a cylinder capacity of 600 cubic centimetres and a power of 40 kilowatts.” |
They could have put the upper power limits (11kW, 35kW) in there, but that would have taken some of the guessing out of it. I do like "unassisted" and "on the level" though, no more "wind assisted downhill while popping a wicked wheelie" claims. 
Also, it kind of looks like trike licenses are now a subsection of bikes rather than cars (do a lot of leaning on trikes?) but to be honest I'm going glassy eyed and losing the will to live at this point.
I guess we'll just have to see how it shakes out in practise, but they don't appear to have nobbed it up in favour of Learner riders, so get your tests done ASAP.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Rogue_Shadow
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Kickstart
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| daemonoid |
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daemonoid
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Posted: 20:36 - 13 Aug 2012  Post subject: |
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I'm normally fairly good at reading these things, but I'm somewhat confused for now! Many unnecessary clauses.
I'm often surprised they feel the need to put all legislation into words when a decent table would make more sense and be less ambiguous.
____________________
current: ducati monster 750
past: hyosung gt250r, bajaj pulsar 180, hyosung gt 125 comet
@thomasgarrard | www.straitjkt.com | www.racingseven.com |
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| daemonoid |
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daemonoid
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| Posted: 21:15 - 13 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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I think I understand it...
| Quote: | (2E) For the age of 24 in relation to item 3(3) in the table in paragraph 2(a) there is substituted—
(a)the age of 21 in a case where a person has, for a period of not less than two years, held a full licence which authorises the driving of A2 motorcycles;
(b)the age of 20 in the case of a person holding a Community licence authorising the driving of vehicles in sub-category A3; and
(c)the age of 17 in a case where—
(i)the vehicle is being used for naval, military or air force purposes and is—
(aa)owned or operated by the Secretary of State for Defence; or
(bb)being driven by a person for the time being subject to the orders of a member of the armed forces of the Crown; or
(ii)a person—
(aa)passes an appropriate driving test after 18th January 2013 on a vehicle of a class in category B or sub-category A2 or A3; and
(bb)was entitled, before 19th January 2013, to a licence to drive a motor bicycle with an engine having a maximum net power output exceeding 25 kilowatts or a power to weight ratio exceeding 9.16 kilowatts per kilogram. |
It's quite confusing, but to me it looks like a mistake... If you're 17-24 and have a restricted license before the 19th Jan you can upgrade immediately by passing an A2, A3 or rather surprisingly a car license. So either there'll be some lucky 17yo out there or they'll rewrite it.
The biggest confusion for me came from the current restricted being commonly referred to as A2. In this doc, A2 only means the new mid power bikes, kept having to remind myself of that.
____________________
current: ducati monster 750
past: hyosung gt250r, bajaj pulsar 180, hyosung gt 125 comet
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.Chris.
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
nimbA
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| Posted: 22:00 - 13 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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| .Chris. wrote: | | Quote: | A2 = An A2 motorcycle without side-car, with a cylinder capacity of 400 cubic centimetres and a power of 25 kilowatts.
A3 = An A3 motorcycle without side-car, with a cylinder capacity of 600 cubic centimetres and a power of 40 kilowatts.” |
Hmm, so you can't use a 400 for an A2 test, or a 600 for an A3 test, as both are typically a few cc shy of their nominal capacities. I was under the impression this mistake had been corrected in the directive? Would be really stupid for our legislation to then reinstate the cock-up  |
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
Excellent spot. We'd seen various missives that said that the minimum capacity would be 395 / 595cc, but that doesn't agree with the legislation.
OK, I don't see any candidate turning up and pressing the point, but it's a massive, tpyo riddled clusterfrak of a Regulation, and no mistake. 
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Shielder
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| mrdelmonti |
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Shielder
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| Posted: 13:34 - 14 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | (g)for the definition of “standard access period” substitute— .
““standard access period” means the period of two years commencing on the date, before 19th January 2013, when a person passed a test for a licence authorising the driving of standard motor bicycles of any class, other than motor bicycles with an engine the maximum net power output of which is 11 kilowatts or less, but disregarding any deductible period, or part thereof, which subsists in relation to that person on or after the date on which the test was passed;”; and
(h)for the definition of “standard motor bicycle” substitute— .
““standard motor bicycle” means—
(a)in the case of a motor bicycle without a side-car, a motor bicycle the engine of which has a maximum net power output not exceeding 25 kilowatts and a power to weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kilowatts per kilogram, or
(b)in the case of a motor bicycle and side-car combination, a combination having a power to weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kilowatts per kilogram;”.
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Okay, I am now officially confused (along with the DVLA no doubt). I think that this means that a restricted license means exactly what we thought it does at the moment, i.e. after 2 years we get to ride anything we like. But I'm not sure.
I've just sent this to the DVLA, so we'll see what they have to say:
| Quote: |
As you can see from your records, I currently have an entitlement to ride a motorbike up to 25kW. This entitlement will be upgraded, as far as I am aware, to a full category A licence with no power restrictions on the second anniversary of me passing my test (09/09/13).
I have read the new Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 and I am concerned that the restriction on my license will remain after the second anniversary of my test pass.
Can you confirm that the current regulations (The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999) will be enforced for all holders of restricted motorbike licences and that the power restriction (=<25kW) will be removed on the second anniversary of a test pass?
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Yes, I'm making a big assumption that they actually have records, but I'll post any reply that I get from them.
Andy
____________________
CBT - 22/10/08 & 30/5/11, Theory - 13/06/11, Mod 1 - 26/9/11, Mod 2 - 29/9/11
'00 Suzuki Intruder VL 125 (06/06/09 - now) |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
nimbA
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| Posted: 14:36 - 14 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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Eh, Whitehall are done screwing it up, now it's down to the DVLA and DSA to add their own potatoes to the pile.
Given that the DVLA to this day still record previous "A<=25kW" entitlement as "A2" on the paper counterpart (while cheerfully acknowledging that no such category exists yet), I'm not exactly filled with optimism.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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ajag
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mentalboy
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Rogerborg
nimbA
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| Posted: 08:15 - 15 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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From the quarterly ezine figures, the number of people sitting tests is actually rising slightly, although they don't distinguish between test types. Of course, that may be cramming before the 3DLD kicks in...
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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mentalboy
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Rogerborg
nimbA
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| Posted: 09:41 - 15 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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| mentalboy wrote: | These Euro figures don't look overly great, what's your source? |
Was this intended for the Suzuki #10 thread?
MCIA new registrations, it's possible some of the smaller marques are slipping through that net and won't show up until the DVLA release registration totals, but the year-on-year figures should be pretty consistent.
New bike registrations are slightly up this year, but that's all down to yet another rise in 125s, everything else is down again.
The DSA's latest ezine (aww, how quaint) claims that for FY 2011-2012, "57,911 Module 2 tests were carried out - up almost 17%".
https://themavesite.com/TMS-Pictures/2011-01/GoodNewsEveryone.jpg
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Conzar
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| Posted: 12:00 - 16 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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The first time i read this i was under the impression that when the new laws come out in 2013,
my A restricted license automaticly upgrades to a full "A" category meaning i can ride a full power bike in Feb 2013.
I calmed down smiling then looked again and my brain is mush
Don't understand at all.
____________________
Current ride: ZX6R 636 ------- Previous:KTM EXC 450 Supermoto --- ZX6R B1H --Hornet 600--CBR 600--SV650
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Shielder
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 13:27 - 16 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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Nice one!
For a followup, ask them what they'll put under "previous entitlement" on your counterpart when your restriction expires.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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bikertomm
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| Posted: 17:32 - 16 Aug 2012 Post subject: Re: Oh, *there's* the 3DLD implementation! |
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| MV(DL)(A)R 2012 wrote: |
Ah, this looks good, significant word highlighted
| MV(DL)(A)R 2012 wrote: |
(2C) For the age of 19 in relation to item 3(2) [A2 motorcycle] and the age of 24 in relation to item 3(3) [A3 motorcycle] in the table in paragraph 2(a) there is substituted the age of 17 where a person passed a test before 19th January 2013 in respect of a motor bicycle (other than a motor bicycle with an engine the maximum net power output of which is 11 kilowatts or less) and the standard access period has expired. |
As I read that, it confirms that anyone who gets the A<=25kW license under the current regime will still be given full "A" entitlement (of which A2 and A3 are sub categories) after 2 years.
... but then I read this, again the interesting word...
| MV(DL)(A)R 2012 wrote: | (2E) For the age of 24 in relation to item 3(3) [A3 motorycles] in the table in paragraph 2(a) there is substituted—
(c)the age of 17 in a case where—
(ii)a person—
(aa)passes an appropriate driving test after 18th January 2013 on a vehicle of a class in category B or sub-category A2 or A3; and
(bb)was entitled, before 19th January 2013, to a licence to drive a motor bicycle with an engine having a maximum net power output exceeding 25 kilowatts or a power to weight ratio exceeding 9.16 [sic] kilowatts per kilogram. |
Say what? If you already had a license for >25kW (i.e. full A) before 19th January 2013 and you pass a car or big bike test after that date, you can ride a full power bike from 17 upwards.
I can't parse that any way that makes sense. Go, big brains, go.
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Borg' I find this rather interesting. What in god's name?
Im 19 and will be up till April 2013.
I passed my Car test September 2010.
So if I pass my MOD 2 before Jan 13'..
(I will have a 2 year restriction of 33bhp?)
EDIT: Just read it again. Wow that's a loophole and a half, how mad if you are unrestricted at 17!
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 09:14 - 17 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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Yup, at 19 your best option is probably to pass the current "standard bike" test on a 125 ASAP, and get a 2 year restriction to 25kW/33bhp, which will automagically expire without further tests.
However, you could wait until January and do the new A2 test, which will give you a license to ride a 35kW/47bhp bike. You'd have to do that test on (realistically) a 500+ bike via a training school, and then pay again in 2015 to do an A3 test on a 600+. Maybe. If you can be bothered, and I suspect a lot of people might not.
I have no idea what that other stuff is about, unless they're trying to accommodate Yerpian Yoofs who might turning up waving a full A obtained by some devious, underhand means. We have made provision for allowing riding of bikes at the minimum ages allowed by the 3rd Directive, even though our test ages will be a year higher than the strict minimums.
Eh, I dunno, it's up to the DSA, DVLA and Plod to sort out now.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Conzar
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mentalboy
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 11:45 - 17 Aug 2012 Post subject: |
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^^^^^
That, it doesn't seem to make any sense. Is there some way you can currently get a full unrestricted A license at 17? Via the military or some such route? Either way, it won't apply to the vast majority of people.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 14 years, 62 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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