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Speed VS Helmet

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KellyAFox
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 31 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 04:27 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Speed VS Helmet Reply with quote
There are so many news involving motorcycle accidents starting from the month of June. How does it comes from the news that I had recently read a minute ago where a man died for a motorcycle crash and he is wearing a helmet?

So, does it mean that if we are wearing a helmet, we are not totally safe in the road?

According to the police the cause for the motorcycle crash is the speed.
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iMark
World Chat Champion



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PostPosted: 04:35 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wearing a helmet doesn't make you invulnerable, neither does wearing leathers or textiles... all they do is make it hurt less, to a certain degree.


"speed" varies a lot... He could of been doing 150mph and faceplanted a brick wall, a crash barrier or even a lorry.
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Efes123
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PostPosted: 07:11 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Re: Speed VS Helmet Reply with quote
KellyAFox wrote:
According to the police the cause for the motorcycle crash is the speed.


Wrong, spped very very rarely is the cause of a crash, it's the loss of control. Speed may increase the damage/pain. Often, it's the rider's lack of skill when high speeds are involved, you have so much less time to react to anything.
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Hockeystorm65
Spanner Monkey



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PostPosted: 07:22 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
According to the Police stats 85% of bike accidents take place at 30mph or below in the UK..........top three circumstances are: Collision at Junctions, Overtaking and loss of control when cornering.

.......I would suggest that after buying your helmet you should do a one day session with the Bikewise chaps! Very Happy

......still not invincible but much better equipped to avoid the above.
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KellyAFox
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 31 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 07:37 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Re: Speed VS Helmet Reply with quote
Efes123 wrote:


Wrong, spped very very rarely is the cause of a crash, it's the loss of control. Speed may increase the damage/pain. Often, it's the rider's lack of skill when high speeds are involved, you have so much less time to react to anything.



Oh you got it right. It should be loss of control. Btw guys, have you watch Ghost rider? Johnny blaze was riding a motorcycle in the first scenes where he leaves the girl, what bike does he ride?
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Billo63
Crazy Courier



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 08:17 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
iMark wrote:
Wearing a helmet doesn't make you invulnerable, neither does wearing leathers or textiles... all they do is make it hurt less, to a certain degree.


"speed" varies a lot... He could of been doing 150mph and faceplanted a brick wall, a crash barrier or even a lorry.



^^^^^ +1
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yaigi
World Chat Champion



Joined: 28 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 09:52 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Re: Speed VS Helmet Reply with quote
KellyAFox wrote:


So, does it mean that if we are wearing a helmet, we are not totally safe in the road?



Of course, they're not indestructible objects, and nor are we. It only takes a sudden stop from around 30mph to 0mph (for example if you hit a brick wall) for your insides to turn to jelly and kill you anyway, with not a scratch on you. Leathers and helmets have saved lives, but it certainly doesn't mean they will on every occasion.
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T.C
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PostPosted: 11:14 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Most common cause of a fatality on a bike is not head injuries but a broken neck and it does not matter what you are wearing.

Speed in itself is not a killer. In crashes where speed is involved, it is usually inappropriate speed in the wrong place.
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Davenaylor
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: 12:10 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
take a look at this thread https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=253168

Was he going too fast? Nope
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 12:38 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
T.C wrote:
Most common cause of a fatality on a bike is not head injuries but a broken neck and it does not matter what you are wearing.


And arguably, wearing a helmet can make this even more likely by making your head bigger and heavier, thus increasing the decceleration forces during a crash
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Trasler
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 12 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: 12:56 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow, did you REALLY think that helmets offered 100% security? Man, put the bike away and start walking around, you're gonna hurt yourself or someone else because no one can be THAT stupid.
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symonh2000
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 13:24 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
The police would like us to think that speed is usually to blame.

It is easier for them to justify more camera's and speed limits.
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 13:38 - 22 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting nugget dragged from UK Stats, in 85% ish of accidents speed is not a factor in either the cause of the crash, nor the consequences. Most accidents happen, as said at junctions or in traffic, etc.

HOWEVER.... in the accidents where people die....... most of them, some-one is speeding.

Also worth noting, that KellAFox is in the USA, where motorcycle helmet laws and standards are quite different.

In UK & Europe, what constitutes a 'Motorcycle-Helmet' is laid down in law, that requires the helmet to meet certain testing standards.

In the USA the laws I believe vary from state to state, some I believe still not mandating a helmet as compulsary, and many helmets sold in the USA as 'Motorcycle Helmets' would not pass UK/Euro approvals, and offer little more 'protection' than a cycling helmet.

The popular 'beanie' helmet, that only covers the crown of the head being an example.
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KellyAFox
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 31 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 06:42 - 23 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Davenaylor wrote:
take a look at this thread https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=253168

Was he going too fast? Nope




Oh my GOD.
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T.C
World Chat Champion



Joined: 05 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 11:54 - 23 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
T.C wrote:
Most common cause of a fatality on a bike is not head injuries but a broken neck and it does not matter what you are wearing.


And arguably, wearing a helmet can make this even more likely by making your head bigger and heavier, thus increasing the decceleration forces during a crash


This theory has been tested, but the only thing that was found was that flip front helmets cause an increase in the chances of suffering a diffuse fracture to the base of the skull (broken neck).

If the impact is heavy enough though, doesn't matter what you are wearing, the neck will break.
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 23 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
T.C wrote:
This theory has been tested, but the only thing that was found was that flip front helmets cause an increase in the chances of suffering a diffuse fracture to the base of the skull (broken neck)


Recall some studies many years ago; a helmet increases head-mass by aprox 30% and significantly the moment of inertia.

Interesting thing about it, that I recall, was to do with children;

We are born with our head approx 75% the size of a fully grown adults, but a body less than 20% adult size.... (one of the reasons a large headed cartoon character looks 'cute' and child-like, apparently)

Pre-Adolescent children then have a head that is much heavier in relation to their body than an adult, and they don't have fully formed and full strength muscle to support it.

HOWEVER, nature is the most effective development device; and in compensation, children have a lot of compensating ergonomics, and up until they are about three years old, their center of gravity is offset.... so that if they fall over... they TEND to fall on their bum, not their face!

Anyway, quip line from the study, as said I cant remember what it was, BASICALLY a pre-adolescent child, in a low velocity impact had enough natural 'protection' that they were less likely to be severely injured without a crash helmet than with, because of this heavy head thing.

But, I think it was looking more at 'sporting' applications, like canoing or rock climbing and cycling, particularly BMXing where children were more often being put in 'adult' motorcycle type open face helmets 'for safety' and in accidents they weren't having the effect hoped for.

There have been a few studies into helmet weight and kneck injuries, other than flip front anomolies, but as I recall, they were rather inconclusive.

One I recall was referenced in 'Lazer' helmet advertising in the 80's when they were the only manufacturer of lighter poly-carb helmets with Type A approval, which supported lighter weight helmets, as well as mentioning the benefits of softer shell construction, in allowing the polystyrene 'crumple-zone' to better absorb impact energy.

But if I remember, it was rather inconclusive, pointing out that there were far too many variables for generalities to be relied on, and went into a lot of analysis of helmet sizing, and pro's and cons of bigger shells with more padding vs smaller shells with less padding, and considering 'fit', which was probably a nod towards Bell, who at the time claimed having a larger number of shell sizes across the range to achieve all hat sizes, in thier ad-blurb.
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yaigi
World Chat Champion



Joined: 28 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 23 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
T.C wrote:

This theory has been tested, but the only thing that was found was that flip front helmets cause an increase in the chances of suffering a diffuse fracture to the base of the skull (broken neck).

If the impact is heavy enough though, doesn't matter what you are wearing, the neck will break.


Or, in the case of the person on Huyton Industrial Estate a few weeks ago, you will be decapitated Sick
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slamminorion
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: 14:49 - 23 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Speed does not kill....... its the sudden stopping that does Razz
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Pete.
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: 15:03 - 23 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Teflon-Mike wrote:
T.C wrote:
This theory has been tested, but the only thing that was found was that flip front helmets cause an increase in the chances of suffering a diffuse fracture to the base of the skull (broken neck)


Recall some studies many years ago; a helmet increases head-mass by aprox 30% and significantly the moment of inertia.



Yes but does the neck break because the the mass of the head & crash helmet is tranferred through the neck when the body hits something, or does it break because the mass of the body is transferred through the neck when the head & crash helmet hits something?

Given that, in a sudden stop, the body is thrown forwards and the head is right at the front of this 'nissile' - I know which one I think is most likely
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kotachi
Traffic Copper



Joined: 26 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: 15:04 - 23 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
slamminorion wrote:
Speed does not kill....... its the sudden stopping that does Razz


For proof of this, see Pete.'s sig.

"132 mph off and walked away"

And then this thread (NSFW, 30mph off and look at the damage)

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=253168
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