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Plans afoot to expand council "policing" of roads

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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 27 Aug 2012    Post subject: Plans afoot to expand council "policing" of roads Reply with quote

Including abuse of pedal cycle advanced stop lines in case you're wondering where the properbike angle is. Anyone know if the London spycams face the front or rear of vehicles? Thinking

AA bloke wrote:
I think the risk is the cameras will click away automatically where there is a traffic management problem, such as a badly designed junction.

It means there will be no incentive to improve junctions, given the amount of money councils can make from these fines.

As I understand it, this is already business as usual in London.

Foul up the signs, install a stealth camera, rake in a few million then fix the signage when PATAS or someone with clout eventually calls foul, and move on to the next honeypot. They spaff on about the goal being "full compliance with no penalties" while at the same time budgeting for receiving tens of millions in penalties each year.

I guess the "End to the war on motorists" was just a cease in hostilities to develop better weapons.
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J4mes
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 27 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Peterboghorror we have a smart car driving around with CCTV/ANPR on it which catches motorists out for parking illegally and issues fines, think it took £25K in 3 months which is more than the other 8 traffic wardens put together.

No doubt this new legislation will widen what this wheeled bastard can dish out charges for, and the council will invest in a good few more. Not sure if they are cheaper than putting up a fixed installation on a junction, but obviously it can cover multiple junctions/ areas in the day and perhaps cover areas when they are known to be a problem. Perhaps covering the school gates at 8am and 3pm, but roaming the city looking for yellow box/ cycle box infringements in the day time. And permit-parking infringement at night.

Then hopefully someone will set fire to it.

I can imagine councils absolutely going to town with this if it comes in. Confused
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:19 - 27 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll just leave this here..

https://img243.imageshack.us/img243/7170/smartwx7.jpg
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 20:48 - 27 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im actually in favour of this, blatantly ignoring traffic signals and overstepping white lines has reached epidemic proportions in London and poses a real danger to bikers, I see an average of three or four red light jumps on every commute.
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Joncrete Cungle
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PostPosted: 09:42 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt such Orwellian sheet will reach the shires. The council / camera safety partnership round here can't be bothered to bring in to operation all the dummy red light cameras.
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Kris
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy_Pagin wrote:
Im actually in favour of this, blatantly ignoring traffic signals and overstepping white lines has reached epidemic proportions in London and poses a real danger to bikers, I see an average of three or four red light jumps on every commute.


Yea, because 'insta-fines' will really provide a long term solution rather than adjusting the light phasings or redesigning the road layouts..

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Benno
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PostPosted: 10:03 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joncrete Cungle wrote:
I doubt such Orwellian sheet will reach the shires. The council / camera safety partnership round here can't be bothered to bring in to operation all the dummy red light cameras.


Plymouth already has a "fleet" of camera vehicles that patrol the streets
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Joncrete Cungle
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benno wrote:
Joncrete Cungle wrote:
I doubt such Orwellian sheet will reach the shires. The council / camera safety partnership round here can't be bothered to bring in to operation all the dummy red light cameras.


Plymouth already has a "fleet" of camera vehicles that patrol the streets


I wonder if such 'public sector' largesse might eventually reach the frozen North? As on a number of occasions I have filtered to the front of traffic light queues in a morning. Upon my light turning green, my spirited progress has been impeded by cagers ignoring the red light.

Not that I expect anything less than a fully liveried up traffic car prominently parked at the lights will dissuade such morons, well at least the ones looking further ahead than 5 feet in front of the bonnet.

But in these days of ever dwindling fully liveried up traffic cars that appears far fetched. Perhaps a cardboard cut out of a fully liveried up traffic car will do the trick? Like the card board cut out of a policeman in the local supermarket. Rolling Eyes
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U_W v2.0
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PostPosted: 10:31 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm easy solution. 2 cameras facing the junction, those lights with the sensors on them, tie the sensors in so when a car goes through a red light the cameras take a picture of said car getting its plate and fine them.

apply the same thing to yellow boxes
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natefz6
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PostPosted: 11:05 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy_Pagin wrote:
Im actually in favour of this, blatantly ignoring traffic signals and overstepping white lines has reached epidemic proportions in London and poses a real danger to bikers, I see an average of three or four red light jumps on every commute.


I take it you are talking about the cyclists?

Lately I see more and more police waiting at lights and ticketing cyclists for running them. They are so easy to spot but I guess by other people seeing them get done at least it raises awareness of the fact it is not legal for a push bike to run a red light.

I try to stay out of the green pushbike advance boxes but in some cases I think its safer for me to pull forward to it to let the cyclists through who would otherwise be waiting in between traffic behind me. In London if they implemented in strict fines for motorbikes in the green boxes then cyclists would struggle to get to them for all of the bikes filtering.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 11:38 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy_Pagin wrote:
Im actually in favour of this, blatantly ignoring traffic signals and overstepping white lines has reached epidemic proportions in London and poses a real danger to bikers, I see an average of three or four red light jumps on every commute.


Having spent the past year in a country where traffic signals are optional for two wheelers below 50cc I really can't see the problem. As motorcyclists we take extra risks to get to the front of queues, cyclists should be able to take a similar risk to make progress their way.

I went for lunch on my bicycle yesterday - I headed the wrong way down a one way street (twice), ran a red light, travelled through a pedestrian only zone and not once did I get a complaint, despite meeting cops half way down one of the one way streets.

Don't be jealous of cyclists, don't tell people what risks they can/can't take. Just get on with your own business!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:48 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

The UK isn't some commie vassal state like "North Belgium" though.

Why make a distinction for pedalists? If they can ignore traffic signals, why not us? Why not buses? Or trucks? Or cars? Can't we all make our own decisions?
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D O G
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PostPosted: 11:52 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
The UK isn't some commie vassal state like "North Belgium" though.

Why make a distinction for pedalists? If they can ignore traffic signals, why not us? Why not buses? Or trucks? Or cars? Can't we all make our own decisions?


Thing is, if I run a red light on my pushie, if I make an error and end up getting wiped out, I'm likely to just hurt myself. Bit different for a truck....
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map
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PostPosted: 12:03 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

D O G wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
The UK isn't some commie vassal state like "North Belgium" though.
Why make a distinction for pedalists? If they can ignore traffic signals, why not us? Why not buses? Or trucks? Or cars? Can't we all make our own decisions?
Thing is, if I run a red light on my pushie, if I make an error and end up getting wiped out, I'm likely to just hurt myself. Bit different for a truck....

I think Rogerborg by making an exaggerated analogy was trying to illustrate that cyclist are road users and so should follow the same rules as all the other road users.

The fact is certainly wrt to red lights they don't. What's more the attitude with cyclists appears to be they've a god given right not to. This does tend to irritate just a little Mad
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 12:23 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kris wrote:
Andy_Pagin wrote:
Im actually in favour of this, blatantly ignoring traffic signals and overstepping white lines has reached epidemic proportions in London and poses a real danger to bikers, I see an average of three or four red light jumps on every commute.


Yea, because 'insta-fines' will really provide a long term solution rather than adjusting the light phasings or redesigning the road layouts..

Rolling Eyes


It's nothing to do with phasing or junction layouts, I'm talking about simple equally phased cross roads and road users going through red lights.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
The UK isn't some commie vassal state like "North Belgium" though.

Why make a distinction for pedalists? If they can ignore traffic signals, why not us? Why not buses? Or trucks? Or cars? Can't we all make our own decisions?


Why aren't cars allowed to filter then? Why can pedestrians ignore the red man?

Some modes of transport have more restrictions than others, it's just how it is. Also worth noting that all the things I did were illegal, just no-one cares.
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D O G
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PostPosted: 12:33 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

map wrote:
D O G wrote:
Thing is, if I run a red light on my pushie, if I make an error and end up getting wiped out, I'm likely to just hurt myself. Bit different for a truck....

I think Rogerborg by making an exaggerated analogy was trying to illustrate that cyclist are road users and so should follow the same rules as all the other road users.

The fact is certainly wrt to red lights they don't. What's more the attitude with cyclists appears to be they've a god given right not to. This does tend to irritate just a little Mad


Everyone shouldn't speed, everyone shouldn't accelerate through an Amber light, but 95% of people do.

I'm well aware the rules of the raod apply to me when I'm on a pushbike, I just know that I'm unlikely to get caught or endanger anyone else if a run certain red lights.

I run certain red lights because I don't want to lose my momentum, I'm unlikely to get caught, and I'm not endangering others, not because I think they don't apply to me.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 12:36 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

But there is an EU law that they are trying to bring in here in the UK that says if a cyclist is involved in an accident with a larger vehicle, it is always the larger vehicle's fault, disregarding all behaviour by the cyclist.

This, combined with cyclists running red lights adds up to some pretty nasty consequences.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 12:49 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
But there is an EU law that they are trying to bring in here in the UK that says if a cyclist is involved in an accident with a larger vehicle, it is always the larger vehicle's fault, disregarding all behaviour by the cyclist.

This, combined with cyclists running red lights adds up to some pretty nasty consequences.


You've been reading the daily mail too much. No such thing...
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 12:52 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

daemonoid wrote:
MarJay wrote:
But there is an EU law that they are trying to bring in here in the UK that says if a cyclist is involved in an accident with a larger vehicle, it is always the larger vehicle's fault, disregarding all behaviour by the cyclist.

This, combined with cyclists running red lights adds up to some pretty nasty consequences.


You've been reading the daily mail too much. No such thing...


Not at the moment no, and maybe the EU legislation was altered to not include this. It doesn't mean that it won't happen though. Just look at the motorcycle Type approval and the new 'Super MOT' and the motorcycle licensing system etc etc...
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map
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PostPosted: 12:54 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

map wrote:
...the attitude with cyclists appears to be they've a god given right...
D O G wrote:
...I'm well aware the rules of the raod apply to me when I'm on a pushbike, I just know that I'm unlikely to get caught or endanger anyone else...

...and there it is. Wish I had reason to ride a pushbike more regularly so I could develop such arrogance.

How do you know you're not endangering others. If you're hit by a car how do you know the driver will not be angst ridden and traumatised. If it's a bus driver are you 100% certain they won't be disciplined and maybe loose their job? There's more to this endangerment than physical injury.

As to unlikely to get caught, that's just trying to be a smug git. I'm guessing every criminal starts out with that philosophy.

The pro-cycling lobby is very good at misdirection and talking up the health and green issues (as in "we behave like complete areholes but we're promoting fitness and health and vitality and we don't pollute and lycra is sooo sexy isn't it and cycling won sooo many Olympic gold medals and we won the Tour de France and it's sooo gooood, etc. etc. etc." ad nauseam).

Anyhow, I think that's all I can say as cycling is a religion to some. No good really came out of trying to discuss religion and politics.

Thumbs Up
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natefz6
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

D O G wrote:

I run certain red lights because I don't want to lose my momentum, I'm unlikely to get caught


Then you are one of the type of cyclist that they are trying to target. Unfortunately people judge what is acceptable by what they see others doing. If a cyclist sees another cyclist jump a red then maybe they will be more likely to do it in future without the care that you take to consider the situation.

You can see the same with illegal bus lane use and going around the wrong side of traffic islands. One scooter goes round and then they all start to follow like lemmings even in to the face of on coming traffic. I don't care so much if a cyclist jumps a red light in a safe and considerate way, but many in London no longer even look to check if its safe. I have had to do a couple of maneuvers to avoid cyclist that have ended up putting me in greater danger than I would have liked. They thought their route was safe but what about the changes I had to make to mine... I don't think they considered that.
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 13:16 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

daemonoid wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
The UK isn't some commie vassal state like "North Belgium" though.

Why make a distinction for pedalists? If they can ignore traffic signals, why not us? Why not buses? Or trucks? Or cars? Can't we all make our own decisions?


Why aren't cars allowed to filter then? Why can pedestrians ignore the red man?

Some modes of transport have more restrictions than others, it's just how it is. Also worth noting that all the things I did were illegal, just no-one cares.


Cars are allowed to filter - it's just another word for overtaking.

Pedestrians do in fact fall outside of the regulations, an argument between a local council and the MOT in 1954 over a pedestrian crossing established that there was no legal basis on which pedestrians could be prevented from crossing a road.
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 13:24 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

D O G wrote:
Everyone shouldn't speed, everyone shouldn't accelerate through an Amber light, but 95% of people do.

Please provide the sources for those statistics as they are bollocks in my experience.


D O G wrote:
I'm well aware the rules of the raod apply to me when I'm on a pushbike, I just know that I'm unlikely to get caught or endanger anyone else if a run certain red lights.

I've done many e-stops to avoid killing cyclists with this attitude, luckily so far I haven't had a truck plough into the back of me yet.


D O G wrote:
I run certain red lights because I don't want to lose my momentum, I'm unlikely to get caught, and I'm not endangering others, not because I think they don't apply to me.

Same bullshit as above.

In a nutshell you're saying you ignore the law because you can't get caught and try and justify your behaviour by saying you're unlikely to hurt anyone else.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 28 Aug 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

nategs500 wrote:
Lately I see more and more police waiting at lights and ticketing cyclists for running them.

Good. Thumbs Up TS10 is a TS10, the method shouldn't matter. For the context of this rant, I treat all road traffic signs and signals as advisory (which is how I know it's a TS10), I'd just like a bit of consistency in policing of them.

Actually, the idea of super-taxing motor vehicles for using pedalist advanced stop lines at busy junctions is pretty hilarious given how few pedalists do actually stop in those locations.

Back OT, if I searched the length and breadth of the land, do you think I could find a single person anywhere who could look me in the eye and say with a straight face "I honestly believe that councils won't abuse these powers for revenue raising." Very Happy
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