Mad project, sub 33BHP Cafe racer on a budget

[Ribenapigeon]

What would make a cheap poroject bike to convert to a cafe racer style bike. I'm thinking a four stroke 250. Has to be a cheap doner bike any age but with easyly sourced spares. Any ideas? Its a plan for a fun bike post test.

[ocatoro]

plenty cheap h100 and rxs100 around for very cheap at the moment.
____________________
CBT - 17/09/12 * Theory - 23/10/12 * Mod1 - 05/03/13 * Mod2 - 25/03/13 * BOSH!
Current - None but shed project H100 (first bike )
Past - ER5, '93 ZZR600, '92 CB400 SF, ZZR600 (again), yellow Monster 620, Blackbird - black Monster 620ie - '96 ZZR600

[Zen Dog]

[ocatoro]

no i know... but the brief was

"I'm thinking a four stroke 250. Has to be a cheap doner bike any age but with easyly sourced spares. Any ideas? Its a plan for a fun bike post test."

so i thought didn't 100% need to be a 250...
____________________
CBT - 17/09/12 * Theory - 23/10/12 * Mod1 - 05/03/13 * Mod2 - 25/03/13 * BOSH!
Current - None but shed project H100 (first bike )
Past - ER5, '93 ZZR600, '92 CB400 SF, ZZR600 (again), yellow Monster 620, Blackbird - black Monster 620ie - '96 ZZR600

[Teflon-Mike]

1/ The poverty-project 'Cafe-Racer' is becoming as dire a cliche as the 'street-fighter'.... its all oh so last season.

2/ Project bikes are far too frequently anything BUT 'cheap'.

3/ Old 250's you can pick up for peanuts.... can be usually be picked up for peanuts, becouse the peanuts are more useful... they at least have some nutritional value, and can provide hours of amusement in a pub, if only to flick at people who are drunk.

OK... where does that leave us?

Project bike... yeah... something to while away boring winter nights; get the creative jucies flowing, and waste lots of money and effort, cause consternation with who-ever does the laundry or shares light switches... to feel a fleeting sense of satisfactioon in creating something ... actually, no, its not that unique is it.... but hey I created it....... yeah... I'n not really happy with that bit..... I think I'll just.......

Project bikes are a peculiar perversion of masocism, and as often result in a perpetual project that is never 'quite' how you want it, or having another 'idea' explored in the shed, is almost as common as the "For Sale Unfinished Project! Just needs wiring and MOT"

Actual, on the road, usable, reliable, joy to ride 'projects' are a very rare breed......

WHAT you actually start with for a project then CAN be pretty much irrelevant.

Doesn't really matter, if its only ever going to get wheeled from one side of the garage to the other, or live in bits distributed around the garden, bathroom, attic, boot of the car...... or simply be bundled into carboard boxes and displayed on the patio for than almost inevitable e-bay add.......

I be flippant.......

But there is rather TOO much 'truth' in what i say for it to be funny.

Have you seen the state of my back garden?
https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/Little%20Dreams/imag0828.jpg
And I'm a fellow who doesn't have such grand ideas of 'customisation' and DOES get the job done..... eventually... perhaps..... occasionally!

So lets look at your mandate:-

1/ Its a plan for a fun bike post test.

OK, lets start with the last thing on your list; this is often actually the most significant.

FUN..... well that has a lot of connotations, and could be a lot of things. Fun to ride, fun to own, fun to play around with, 'fun' as in silly to look at...... possibly a few of them

Before re-inventing the wheel.... whats out there? Is there anything already available that would tick the boxes?

https://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSk3r5xpCor-tRukBkU520cOkq70WR_AZSJvsrc7te2OptAHp-I

Honda CB250RS - they tend not to be exhorbitantly expensive; you can pick up a good tidy runner for around £750. Often plauded as the 'best' 250 honda ever made. Four-Stroke single, based on the old XL250 dirt-bike motor, that's renowned for being pretty tough. Last of the line examples pumped 31bhp, and were the most powerful 250 four-stroke Honda made. Certainly more than the lardy twins, while they were aplauded for being lighter, better handling and more ecconomical. Sharing a lot of Honda parts bin spares, and being a honda bits are usually fairly easy to come by, and for a post test, out the crate solution THIS would actually be pretty high up my 'to get list'.... and I would leave the thing standard.

Looks like a humble commuter; could be mistaken for a 125, YET the dang thing is as quick as an italian sports stroker 125 in genuine full power guise... and has a thing called 'low down power'!

Even paying over the odds for one, say £900-£1200, for something original, well looked after and in very good condition, long term could still be a bargain.

ESPECIALLY against something you buy with the notion of 'fixing it up'. Especially if you compound that little bit of kiddology with the suggestion that its 'cheaper' to modify a bike that's scrap, because you are only going to cut stuff up or chuck it away anyway...... it seldom proves so!

That would be my top choice for an out the box, no fuss solution, anyway, but far from the only one.

https://www.osmc.co.uk/images/honda_xbr_500a.jpg

Honda XBR500, was Honda's 'idea' of a 'traditional' british style sporting single, taking cues from the old Velocettes and BSA's.

Likely candidate for making more 'retro', often gaining wide spoke wheels.. I think there is a common donor, but cant remember what it is..... some do get done quite well, but 'cheap' is relative. Some bikes get sold for peanuts, others get hawked for daft money. You could snag a bargain or sorely ripped off, but again, for that 'kind' of bike, its a good one to go for and delivers most of what you might hope for right out the box, all it would need is a restrictor washer and dyno run.

https://www.tamiya.com/english/products/list/12bike_img/14048m.jpg

Yamaha's rival, and again, very well regarded was the SRX. I think in the UK we got the SRX500, with the old XT500 engine in, before it was superceded by the SRX600 with the updated XT600 lump.

However, they also did 200 & 400cc variants; using I think the XT200 Serrow engine, or an over bored version of the XT350 motor, for different markets, to suit licence laws. Personally I'd avoid these as likely to be grey-imports and not so easy to sourse bits for. the 600 would be the one to go for, and easily restricted.

https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3062/2757249929_aeb8cd645a.jpg

This wee beastie, is a Regal-BSA 'Gold-Star' 500..... built by the licence holders of the original BSA company, Regal, using bought in components, including the Yamaha SRX motor..... its a genuine 'factory' Cafe-Racer and shows how good one COULD be 'out the crate'......

Back to your mandate?

2/ What would make a cheap poroject bike to convert to a cafe racer style bike.

Well, any bike that doesn't need ANY 'conversion'... would as like as not be the cheapest way to go. Certainly the easiest, and least risk.

Go look at Show & Tell.... and look how MANY 'Cafe-Racer' threads there are, how many are even remotely successful, and how many actually LOOK properly cafe'd.

To my mind, takes more than replacing the seat with a bit of vynal covered hardboard and a the curve cut from an old crash-helmet to make a bum-stop, ripping of the indicators, side panels and air-box, turning the handlebars upside down, and painting it all black!

https://www.bikeexif.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/velocette_venom_thruxton.jpg

Velocette Thruxton

https://classic-motorbikes.net/images/gallery/gold-star-replica.jpg

BSA Goldie

https://www.bikeexif.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/honda-cb450-cafe-racer.jpg

Honda CB450 'Black-Bomber'

https://www.pipeburn.com/storage/benjes_cb350_cafe.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1255774765045

Honda CB350 - I think this might actually have been a Super-Dream once upon a time!

https://www.pipeburn.com/storage/cb750_cafe.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1266057807350

Honda CB750 'Four' SOHC.... bit like Fizzers old bike, and this one I is so oft referenced and inspired so many to brutilise poor unsuspecting CGs or CG copies it ought to carry a warning!

NOW THIS:-

https://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-hBqUr0isjfsyovCgXDyqBtp8k4iwPqzfCjFRFSbhKHKqmzUT

Triumph Thruxton..... THATS a real Cafe-Racer!

OR the 'original' real deal....

https://www.realclassic.co.uk/triton04120101.jpg

The Triton

OK... inspiration pondered.... lets have a think about what REALLY makes a cafe.

Triton... Basic ingredients; one 650 parallel twin Triumph engine with high compression pistons, raucouse cam, big amal GP carbs on open bell-mouths, and open pipes, stuffed into a Norton Featherbed frame. Dresed out with either hand beaten aluminium or GRP slim-line 'race' tank, to accomodate clip-on or 'ace' bars. Rearsets for extra ground clearance, short, solo seat with bum-stop, and lightweight 'sports' mudguards again in either aluminium or GRP. Bare bones, minimalist, garden shed engineering.

Asthetically, there are a few 'features' or cues that are strongly associated with the genre. The big round headlamp is obviousely one, the bum-stop seat and clip-ons or ace-bars another, but those are really accessories.

More subtle, but intrinsic, is the twin-shock rear suspension, and the horezontal line, from the head-stock to the tail, made by the top frame rails, linking the tank and seat.... and the TANK, that is probably the most intrinsic part.

IF I was going to 'do' a Cafe-Racer... to be HONEST I wouldn't start looking at old Super-Dreams or XS650's..... I would be scouring the auto-jumbles for a genuine aluminium triton tank, and a GOOD bum-stop seat. THEN I would be ordering a pair of aluminium 'pre-65' trials mudguards from Sammy Miller Spares, and looking for something that they could all be hung on! Tidily, keeping that horexontal line between headstock and tail.

Like ANY custom these days its almost exclusively an asthetic excersise, so IF you are going to do it, and do it mainly for asthetics, you MAY as well do the job properly and make it LOOK like what you think it ought to and look GOOD, rather than skrimping and bashing trying to do 'something' simply because its 'cheap' and making excuses NOT 'art'.

I'll put my hands up here, and say THIS is why I NEVER try building a real 'special' or 'custom'.

It really IS difficult to do something truly different or unique. Its now incredibly hard to avoid making a cliche, and with so many really, really 'good' customs out there, its very hard to make something that doesn't look like a mess, or something that really doesn't look like anythiung more than it really is, a mes cobbled together from old scrap and a few bits out the M&P catalogue!

Why I do what I think of as 'renovations' to basically show-room stock, with a few 'sympathetic' adaptations....

Here's one:-
https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/XX-Forum%20Posts/101_0043.jpg

Hand-Guards on Snowie's Pup. The whole bike looks, and IS pretty much 'stock'. Colour is not actually 'black' though, its dark-aubergene, a purple-sheen, which when we have some sun, comes out in it! Livery? Based on that of a later model to what it is, and looking pretty factory, but not 'quite'. Corf did us some custom decals, and the red stripe is 'muted' from the Honda original, to let the colour come out in the purple paint, and the stripes are seperated, allowing body colour pin-strip between them, where factory had an actual black stripe which was slightly broader.... THIS is VERY subtle 'stuff'.... more obviouse it says 'Super-Dream' on the side panel, and the CB125 is outlined in white... this looks factory, but its not! But back to the hand-guards. Wanted them, for a couple of reasons, one was as a learner bike to protect lever ends; other was with heated grips to offer some wind deflection, and come winter expand bar-muffs.

Originally bright orange, intended for a dirt-bike, they were in your face and looked HUGE and out of place. Fitting them. Looking at them. Taking them off. Fiddling with them. Looking at what you MIGHT do with them. Then, sanding them to key for paint, using plastic primer to get a key, then doing that careful 'two-tone' paint job on them in body-matching colours, and doing it to 'de-emphisise' the size, and blend them into the bike.... that was probably a weeks tinkering, and that was just ONE small detail, on an other wise pretty much 'stock' bike, where we were working 'to the book' and merely adapting or refining on what was there.

Departing entirely from the original; chucking the book out the window, you have to look at the detail, back up, look at the whole, adjust, consider, change something, back up, consider, go back, balence something else.... its a HUGE under-taking to try and make a big collection of what are really pretty random bits, come together an LOOK like they BELONG together.

Have a lot of respect for people that do it, and manage to make it work, and look good, but unfortunate fact is, VERY FEW do.

Those that do, have a very clear idea of what they want to achieve and what they want it to look like, and an inate sense of asthetic as well as engineering, and hyper critical eye for detail, before they start, and they DO NOT COMPROMISE.

But even then, even the few people who DO manage to build something that really is 'special'... so often it merely gets shifted from one side of teh garage to the other, or is forever being pulled back to pieces to sort something they feel they could have done better..... its a danger of the game..... IF you have what it takes to build a special, your forever building it, its always a work in progress... folk that 'finish' projects so often have ones that are so UN-finished! or least look it!

Hence big caution... think hard... do you REALLY want a project?

Quick Caution: CafeRacer has started a thread on S&T: Honda CB 125 RS

£100 Basket case Honda 125 Single, bought barely a week ago, with nieve optimism & idea that he could build a 'cheap' Cafe-Racer from it for under £300.... well, its been a week, and he has it running, but he's spent more than his £200 build money and not got it near a test centre yet, and shelved the 'aspirations' for Cafe-Mods...... JUST getting the thing to ROAD will be a feat.... and the rather dissolusioning truth is, that when he does... and encouragement, He WILL do it, I DO want to see this one happen... its likely to have cost him MORE than he could have bought a bike, ready to ride.

The Pup? Over two grand and still counting. We Could have bought Snowie a brand new YBR for less than that bike cost to put together. Yeah, easy to diminish that, "Yeah well, but you over restored it - went for as new standard, used all new parts etc"... but thats what it costs if you want to build to that standard.

Building to 'rat' standards, JUST getting a scrapper to road, little different; you put money, time & effort into it, and by the time you have added up JUST some basic service spares... tyres, brakes oil change, spark plugs, a new battery, seat cover.... not done much to make it 'pretty'.... by the time you have a test on it... you have spent, three, four, five hundred quid? Add the cost of your donor bike, and what are you looking at?

£500, give or, give a little more? Even for a 'rat' project.

There are, some pretty useful bikes out there, ready to ride, for that money, in the big bike world.

Do you REALLY want this 'hassle'?

Think long and hard WHAT you really want, and WHY you want it. And before you begin, be SURE you know what you want to achieve and be sure you know how much its likely to cost, AND you are prepared to pay it.

Few people value other peoples 'customs' more highly than a standard example. It is so often a way ONLY to throw good money after bad.

CAN be a heck of a lot of fun. WILL if ever completed give an inordinate sense of satisfaction, and can teach you a heck of a lot along the way.

Snowie's sig holds truth, REAL BIKERS BUILD THEIR OWN..... its another dimension to the persuit, and one that can be imensely rewarding.... but it can also be just as infuriating, exhausting and expensive.

After that? If you STILL want to 'do-It'? I'd be thinking 'singles' rather than old twins.. and I'd probably be looking at old unloved twin-shock dirt-bikes, like the XL250.......

https://motoprofi.com/bikephoto/191/honda_xl_250_s_1979_2.jpg

Keep the engine and frame 'stock' and you dont need to re-register it. Wire wheels, a traditional tank/seat line.... new shorter shocks? Shorter forks? Tank is not far off the right shape to start with.... could be 'dummied' with some creative filler work.... seat? well its think but flat... the ingredients are there.... low level mudguard? Ace-Bars? very close.... probably closer than something like an XBR that has already had honda try and 'blend' styling elements.....

Just a hint......
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Rogerborg]

GPz305 would be absolutely ideal. Don't even consider anything else. I could be persuaded to part with mine...

Actually, semi seriously... it's a neat "250" with an over stressed engine making bang on 33bhp, a funky belt drive (that can be converted to chain) and breaker parts available because the engines do like to assplode if treated harshly. Or well, for that matter. "A hand grenade looking for a war", as stinkwheel put it. What's not to like?

Ongoing GPz 305 cafe project.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Matt B]

Save up... Buy a 2nd hand Enfield Clubman (28bhp)... Move on with your life...

https://royal-enfield.3xmotorcycles.com/images/models/clubman/fs/clubman-right-side.jpg
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stinkwheel: He had an animated .gif of a cat performing fellatio. It's not socially acceptable. It can have real life adverse effects on other people.

[mysterious_rider]

I had a gs500 that I turned into a cafe racer. Lovely bike!


https://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj88/mysterious_rider/Photo0095.jpg

[Ribenapigeon]

Tef I know people who have ASBOs for having gardens like that hahaa. Ok point taken. When I say project I mean something more than tinkering. I want to become familier with motorcycle engines and overhauling an engine for a project bike would be my starting point. The notion of a cafe racer is just a daft idea but doable I think. In fact stripping any bike to bits then putting it back together has got to be a good way to learn. Thanks for the excelent pictures though.

[matto]

I've seen a very nice xs250 somewhere...

https://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/caferacer,xs400/Recent

https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5295/5518341873_7380231d42_m.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_I-0IDKU8Hz0/TS45giPAgyI/AAAAAAAAAIk/YRfItRp6Kec/s1600/v44638_xs400_caferacer.jpg

[ocatoro]

what model is that triton? my grandmother had one just like it
____________________
CBT - 17/09/12 * Theory - 23/10/12 * Mod1 - 05/03/13 * Mod2 - 25/03/13 * BOSH!
Current - None but shed project H100 (first bike )
Past - ER5, '93 ZZR600, '92 CB400 SF, ZZR600 (again), yellow Monster 620, Blackbird - black Monster 620ie - '96 ZZR600

[N cee thirty]

mz ETZ 250
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'00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30 Mod 2 Passed 09/06/2011

Jewlio Iglesias wrote: I actually did vote BNP once

[Ribenapigeon]

I did think at first of getting an MZ 250 but they're two strokes. I'm just not up foir getting into the wierd science of tuning up a two stroke

I do like MZs though and would be tempted to get one as a daily ride. They're one of those bikes mates had back in the eighties when I wanted a bike but couldent have one. Other nostalgia bikes for me would be RD 125s 250s either air or water cooled but they're expensive these days.

[Teflon-Mike]

This is the point; cheap is reletive.

You buy a CX500 or get given a CX500 'because its cheap'.. we know, that absolute bare minimum, to get a derelict back on the road, is going to take cash chucked at it, and a fair bit of it, in all liklihood, more than it would be worth, on the road.

Thats for a standard bike, that would tend to fetch more money sold, and not demand any after-market accessories or stuff to change its look.

Reason its 'cheap' is becouse its 'beyond ecconomic repair'... if it was ecconomically repairable... SOME-ONE probably would have repaired it, OR the thing wouldn't be 'cheap', becouse there would be a dozen people quing up to have a crack at it and take the profit.

As is; there are more than enough nieve optimists looking for 'cheap' projects and prepared to pay way over what they are really worth for them, pulling prices of scrappers up.

More others, who will look at something, price up what people will pay for bits of it as 'spares', £50 for a brake assembly, £30 for a wheel, £20 for a pair of clocks, £10 for a headlamp, etc etc etc, and buy purely to break....

Double damnation for YOU the 'baked-bean-bike-builder'... 1/ they are pushing up the price of project candidates, 2, when you need bits, yes they are there, BUT... you paid £100 for a bike pulled out of a hedge... and now some breaker is asking half as much again JUST for a bit its missing.......

Pick something that's actually WORTH something when done; I dont know, a Single Overhead Cam Honda 750; an RD250, or an X7.... its worth doing... becouse you KNOW it'll be worth something....... BUT you have to put the money in up-front to get your donor.

And you can STILL be throwing good money after bad.

Pick something that doesn't really need 'so' much doing to it..... I'm looking at at a derelict as potential CB750 anti-vandalism measure.... (keep Snowie away from MY bike project!) at the mo.... No tax MOT, sat for three years in a garage, 'wont stay in 2nd gear'

That could be a pretty 'easy' fix.. I have a suspicion I know what it is, its a common fault on those motors, and two chances... it would fix in half an hour pulling the side cover off, and replacing a spring (which I have) or in about two days, splitting the cases to replace a selector fork... I also have......

Bit of scrubbing, bit of grease, oil and service attention, a weeks tinkering.... and provided I got the bike for sensible money.... could be worth the doing and be a cheap rider, or small profit.

BUT that's not a 'Project'....... not enough to do to fix it for it to be a project... and as a project, wouldn't teach you much mechanics, or give you any great sense of achievement from over coming big problems.... becouse you'd have avoided big problems picking a bike that's financially viable to begin with!

If you want to learn bike mechanics, you wont learn by not tackling big jobs or problems, but tackiling big jobs or problems to learn, you WILL end up having to spend money the bike probably doesn't warrant.

And like I say, you are only one of many many nieve optimists with the idea they WANT a project, all hoping to get a bike for pennies that they can scrub up and make work and unique for less than they could buy something off the shelf.... Very few succeed, the odds are against you.

BUT if you insist on percevering with a barel-dreg project base, then you are asking the wrong question.... you shouldn't be asking "What should I be looking for?" you should be on e-bay, on gum-tree, in pre-loved, scouring the 'for sale' boards of all the forums, looking in shop windows, talking to people at meets or at work, trying to hunt out something some-one wants shifted for the space, asking "So whats OUT THERE that is cheap?" then pondering it, and trying to work out whether its more or less liable, whether its a big money-pit a small one, or a monster money-muncher, or a complete non-starter.

Its not a case of being choosey, its a case of taking what comes along.... beggers cant be choosers as they say.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[SamWise72]

TL/DR Don't do anything, you might fail.

Lots of people buy project bikes and cars and don't finish them. On the other hand, none of the really cool project bikes and cars you DO see finished would have happened if everyone let themselves be talked out of it. I've done a number of stupid things that everyone told me I wouldn't, and I've started a few things and not finished them as well. I don't regret either. If you wanna do it, do it, and if you don't finish; oh well. Put it down to experience.

[Ribenapigeon]

I'm not wihout a few unfinished projects in my past but a few finished ones as well. Half the attraction of bikes though is you can do for hundreds what with a car takes thousands.

[SamWise72]

I have exactly the same attitude and a similar plan. Get my garage put up, and in a year or two when my youngest is big enough to want to help me with it, do a project. Big idea in my mind is to find a tired old Guzzi, recon and Bobber it, but there's a perverse idea about a CG125 Cafe Racer in my brain too.

[Ribenapigeon]

I think I will tke Tefs afvice on seeing what's out there rather than setting my heart on a single type of doner bike. I'm not going to get a basket case though it will have to have at least six months MOT.

[SamWise72]

There are huge bargains to be had on eBay on every type of thing you can purchase, if you can be patient and thorough. I got giant bargains on a lot of bicycles, and made decent money for a while flipping ones I bought at way under their value.