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Spy
Renault 5 Driver
Joined: 14 Sep 2012
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 Posted: 18:36 - 20 Sep 2012  Post subject: The route to A class: My DAS progress |
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OK, following a few posts asking a variety of questions, I thought I would create a thread outlining my progress in getting an A class licence.
I already have a driving licence, having held it for over 20 years. Some bike experience from many years ago (incl. delivering pizzas on mopeds  ) but now decided I want to get a bike for commuting. Originally I was thinking 125cc scooter but now I am thinking 600cc Naked bike 
I am impatient so don't really want to spend ages getting to an A licence whilst 'wasting time' on a smaller bike. As a result I have decided on doing a crash DAS course.
I spoke to my local training company who offered up a nice discount and suggested book and pass the Theory test first before booking in.
So....I sat my Theory test today and.....passed 
Pretty impressed with my result, scoring 50/50 on the multiple choice and 67/75 on the Hazard test 
I was impressed with the speed, booked on Sunday night for a Thursday test !
I wasn't expecting it to be so quick so I used the official DSA Theory Test interactive download app and the DSA Hazard Perception DVD to practice, coupled with the Riding:Essential Skills book.
Having passed my car driving test over 20 years ago when all you had to do was drive around with the tester for 45 minutes, I am impressed with how thorough the tests are these days. I learnt a lot of things I didn't know. A lot of motorists could benefit by doing these theory and Hazard tests judging by their road skills !
Now booked into a crash course of CBT->Mod1->Mod2 in early October. I am little nervous about the Mod1 and Mod2 but I guess you have to dive in and give it a go 
I will update this thread with progress. |
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Spy
Renault 5 Driver
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| Posted: 19:21 - 07 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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A quick update on my progress.
I have now started a 5 day DAS course starting with CBT on Saturday and some Mod1 training today.
First off, I am finding this harder than I thought it would be. I am not sure how much is down to my ineptitude and how much is a bad trainer. The trainer knows his stuff but doesn't seem to be very good at building confidence in pupils.
The instructor I have had for the last 2 days has totally de-moralised me because on Saturday I was having trouble getting my slow movement control nailed and not "caressing" the bike but instead being a bit too aggressive on the throttle and front brake.
After the pad work, he even said he didn't want to take me on the road, telling me stories of people in the past almost getting knocked over and mounting pavements but would give me the benefit of the doubt ! In the end, I did do about 3 hours of road riding, didn't kill myself, didn't mount pavements, didn't infuriate any other road users etc.
I really thought he would fail me on my CBT though the way he was going on all day. Personally, I thought I wasn't too bad given I hadn't been on a bike in over 20 years ! Well, he gave me the CBT at the end of Saturday, pretty stressful though I really felt like I had to work very hard for it.
As a result, he said that I would struggle with a full size bike and that instead of doing the A licence I should go for the A2 restricted licence as I could do it on the 125cc which would be easier for me and apparently the testers allow more minors on an A2 compared to an A. After being thoroughly depressed from the day, I agreed that I should go down the A2 route.
On to today, we did some more road riding and did some Mod1 training work today on the DSA test pad using the 125 but still not many words of encouragement. I think I did most things well, slalom, figure of eight, curves, swerve etc. The ony thing I was struggling with was the emergency brake. Kept skidding to a stop and forgetting to do the end observations !
For the next couple of days I have a different instructor (the boss), who seems to have much better teaching skills so hopfully I won't be coming away de-moralised and wanting to give up on the bike dream for a third day !! |
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DonDino
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| Posted: 19:48 - 07 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Spy wrote: | apparently the testers allow more minors on an A2 compared to an A. |
I don't think there's any difference in the examiners' attitude towards rider faults depending on what size bike you are on. You can make up to 5 faults on mod1 and up to 10 on mod2 (if I remember the figures correctly), regardless what size bike you are on. And a fault is a fault, no matter what bike you make it on.
That said, well done for persevering and getting through your CBT!
And my advice is, if you don't like your instructor, change him. The quality of the instruction you receive is about as important as the connection you make with your instructor. If you don't like him to begin with and you don't feel comfortable being with him, then tell him where to go, and get another one. It's your hard-earned money (I assume  ) so it should not be going to someone who just makes you feel bad.
I would also advise anyone (not just you) who can go down the DAS road, to go down the DAS road. I too had my doubts when I started training. I had (still have until next week) my own CBF125 bike and, while I could handle it fine, I was worried I would not be able to handle a big bike with the same ease and comfort. However I took the plunge and even though it took a bit longer and more money, in retrospect it was worth every penny and every drop of sweat, as I can now buy me any bike instead of being restricted for two whole years.
I'd suggest you too take the plunge and go for a bigger bike. Try it once and see how you get along. If it's with a different instructor that treats you a bit better, I'm sure you'll love it. |
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matto
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Spudly
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| Posted: 06:51 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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Spy, this is really important - don't let that instructor beat you down to an A2 licence. You paid for a DAS course which would give you an unrestricted licence, or the closest thing to it for your age group.
Do not let him blow you off like that.
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 07:16 - 08 Oct 2012  Post subject: |
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| inksmithy wrote: | Spy, this is really important - don't let that instructor beat you down to an A2 licence. A=>33 licence (if test taken before or on Jan 18th '13) or A1 Licence (If taken post Jan 19th '13 on a 125) You paid for a DAS course which would give you an unrestricted licence, or the closest thing to it for your age group.
Do not let him blow you off like that. |
A2 licence does NOT yet exist; current DSA terminoligy however uses it to describe the current test rules, using a 125, to gain an A=>33 'restricted' licence, via the bike requirements that come January will be in force to test for an A1 catagory licence..... DONT ask me the fucking sense of it! That's just how they have decided where they cant baffle with bullshit to trick with terminology!
Meanwhile.... with not so oblique references to 'wasting time on a tiddler', and boasting of being 'impatient' enough to exploit a 'crash course', directed at my usual cautions against intensive DAS..... I think that the chronicling of the endevour may be proving a lot of the logic behind the advice I offer, of spending some time on a tiddler, mastering good basic machine control, and not rushing in where angels fear to tread, all for the sake of some impetus derived from leaving it so late in life to begin with.
Instructor might not be on the same wave length, but he's picked up on a problem of basic machine control......
Changing the instructor to one that will blow sunshine and work around it, isn't really helping you...... might make you feel better, might get you a licence...... but?
That 'problem' in basic fundamental machine control will likely remain... given ambition to get onto a full power unrestricted licence as soon as possible, and presumably a full power unrestricted bike allowed by it...... one has to wonder the wisdom of ignoring such 'deficiencies' when discovered.
You have paid for a Training Course, and hire of a DAS eligible bike to do it on. This does not mean you have paid to be guaranteed test passes to award a full unrestricted A-group licence. Another caution I oft offer.
They can carry on training you on a DAS bike if that's what you really want; and after the hours paid for even put you in for tests, but struggling to master basics? They can also lat you fail those tests, having given you the DAS lessons you asked for.
More lessons on a DAS bike? Or wast some time on a tiddler, and get some basics mastered, and taking it in easier, cheaper steps?
DAS will still be there after January, if you waste some time on a tiddler, I NEVER say its an exclusive option and you HAVE to go 125 and 125 tests...... JUST that Time on a Tiddler IS rarely wasted.
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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DonDino
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| Posted: 07:53 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: |
Instructor might not be on the same wave length, but he's picked up on a problem of basic machine control......
Changing the instructor to one that will blow sunshine and work around it, isn't really helping you...... might make you feel better, might get you a licence...... but?
That 'problem' in basic fundamental machine control will likely remain... given ambition to get onto a full power unrestricted licence as soon as possible, and presumably a full power unrestricted bike allowed by it...... one has to wonder the wisdom of ignoring such 'deficiencies' when discovered.
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I see what you're saying Teflon-Mike, but changing instructors of course won't magically get him (or anyone) a license. Only improving his machine control skills will.
Some people are affected a lot more than others by the attitude of instructors.
I had an ex-army instructor on my CBT. He kept telling us off and putting us down and repeatedly threatened to cancel the rest of the CBT if we didn't get this or that right next try. I liked the pressure and found it helped me actually getting to grips with things, but the other lad who was doing CBT with me was quite terrified and felt completely beaten.
If he needs a softer approach and get another instructor that puts you at ease, he will be able to work out his machine control problems (or whatever problems he may have) more easily, made to feel more confident about it.
He won't get to test standard, let alone pass the test, solely by having a more polite instructor, he will still need to master machine control, that requirement won't change And he will have a better chance of getting there if he actually likes the instructor and enjoys his time learning.
I don't think there is any ignoring of deficiencies going on. If anything, he is saying plainly that he struggled with this and that and the other. And I'm sure he (or anyone) doesn't think that it will magically be all good with a new instructor. But he will be able to correct these deficiencies much better with someone else.
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First bike: CBF125, Feb. - Oct. 2012
Currently riding: ER-6N since Oct. 2012 |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 08:39 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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You're the one paying for the course, tell them what you want to do.
If you end up getting an "A<=25kW" license then you've wasted your money - you could have got that yourself by buying a 125, learning at your own pace (as long as you get it done before January), then selling it on afterwards.
Up to you, but all they're saying is that they're not able to train you properly, and think you can "get away with it" on a smaller bike. 
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 09:45 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| DonDino wrote: | I see what you're saying Teflon-Mike, but changing instructors of course won't magically get him (or anyone) a license. Only improving his machine control skills will. |
Its slightly skew logic. But practical motorcycle tests, require a certain standard of machine control. And it is NOT a particularly high standard. What the tests are most concerned with is managing traffic; observations, hazard awareness, following road conventions etc.
Mod 1... supposedly a test of machine control, right? But you still have to do your observations. Shows where the main priorities lie. Mod 2, presumed you have rudimentary machine control, its not an issue, its ALL about raffic management.
Consequently it Is actually possible to get a motorbike licence without ACTUALLY learning to 'ride' a motorbike very well.... you dont have to 'master' basic machine control, you dont even have to be particularly proficient, barely competant is actuall 'enough'.
Within the constraints of an intensive DAS course, time is limited. Basic machine control is something that beyond CBT is mostly a matter of just shear practice, and there is little more to teach; so in order to cover things that are more important to pass tests, will probably recieve no more attension than is absolutely essential to attain test standard, as will much else.
So, matter of aproach angle; and instructor who placed higher value on basic foundation skills and learning to ride properly, could make the student feel he was being held back, and not get on with him. Another Instructor placing value on getting students through tests, and more inclined to concentrate on test technique, COULD get that same rider through tests, without actually doing much to help them learn to ride or be a good competant and safe rider after. Another oft warned risk of the crash course.
| Rogerborg wrote: | You're the one paying for the course, tell them what you want to do. |
Hmmm yes Roger... so maybe when I go to the Doctors and he tells me that I need to change my diet and smoke less, perhaps I should tell him, I pay his salary, and what I WANT is a tummy tuck and some amphetamines, and he who pays the piper calls the tune, so stuff your advice and just give me what I want, eh?
| Rogerborg wrote: | If you end up getting an "A<=25kW" license then you've wasted your money - you could have got that yourself by buying a 125, learning at your own pace (as long as you get it done before January), then selling it on afterwards. |
He isn't buying a TV and being fobbed off with a plasma when he wants an LCD, Roger. You cant BUY a Motorbike-Licence. And even if you could, you wouldn't be paying a school for the fugging thing!
He's buying TEACHING, he is paying for some-one to give him advice...... blokes done that.... advised him to try a tiddler and get some basic machine control!
Maybe not what he wanted to hear, but he's got what he paid for!
| Rogerborg wrote: | Up to you, but all they're saying is that they're not able to train you properly, and think you can "get away with it" on a smaller bike. |
No, they aren't! They are saying that he is struggling on a DAS bike, and suggesting he may find it easier on a lightweight, and/or is going to need more work to get up to standard. And SUGGESTING he may prefer to continue on the 125 and possibly take A=>33 tests, IF he wants to complete and have tests in the course duration.
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Spudly
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| Posted: 10:17 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: |
Meanwhile.... with not so oblique references to 'wasting time on a tiddler', and boasting of being 'impatient' enough to exploit a 'crash course', directed at my usual cautions against intensive DAS..... I think that the chronicling of the endevour may be proving a lot of the logic behind the advice I offer, of spending some time on a tiddler, mastering good basic machine control, and not rushing in where angels fear to tread, all for the sake of some impetus derived from leaving it so late in life to begin with.
Instructor might not be on the same wave length, but he's picked up on a problem of basic machine control......
Changing the instructor to one that will blow sunshine and work around it, isn't really helping you...... might make you feel better, might get you a licence...... but?
That 'problem' in basic fundamental machine control will likely remain... given ambition to get onto a full power unrestricted licence as soon as possible, and presumably a full power unrestricted bike allowed by it...... one has to wonder the wisdom of ignoring such 'deficiencies' when discovered.
You have paid for a Training Course, and hire of a DAS eligible bike to do it on. This does not mean you have paid to be guaranteed test passes to award a full unrestricted A-group licence. Another caution I oft offer.
They can carry on training you on a DAS bike if that's what you really want; and after the hours paid for even put you in for tests, but struggling to master basics? They can also lat you fail those tests, having given you the DAS lessons you asked for.
More lessons on a DAS bike? Or wast some time on a tiddler, and get some basics mastered, and taking it in easier, cheaper steps?
DAS will still be there after January, if you waste some time on a tiddler, I NEVER say its an exclusive option and you HAVE to go 125 and 125 tests...... JUST that Time on a Tiddler IS rarely wasted. |
Don't really care about the terminology, the essence of communication is the successful transmission of a message. In this case, everyone knew what I meant, so communication was achieved.
I am not saying that time on a tiddler is wasted. I don't believe it is, I am finding my time on my slack jawed yokel of a half arsed 125 Passive Aggressor (GZ125) to be a lot of fun as well as instructive.
What I am saying is that from the start of Spy's story, it seems the instructor has been fucking him/her around with scary stories and trying hard to avoid doing any actual training.
If you wanted to go all out conspiracy, you could almost think the trainer is fobbing Spy off with a restricted licence so Spy has to attend again next year to get the unrestricted licence. I don't think that's the case, I think the trainer is being lazy and isn't giving the consumer what the consumer paid for.
If Spy fails after taking the training he/she contracted for, then fine, move in with taking a longer approach, but to do it from the outset after taking the money for a big boys licence is a bit out of order.
In before "it isn't a big boys licence etc etc".
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DonDino
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| Posted: 10:46 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | [But practical motorcycle tests, require a certain standard of machine control. And it is NOT a particularly high standard. What the tests are most concerned with is managing traffic; observations, hazard awareness, following road conventions etc.
Mod 1... supposedly a test of machine control, right? But you still have to do your observations. Shows where the main priorities lie. Mod 2, presumed you have rudimentary machine control, its not an issue, its ALL about raffic management.
Consequently it Is actually possible to get a motorbike licence without ACTUALLY learning to 'ride' a motorbike very well.... you dont have to 'master' basic machine control, you dont even have to be particularly proficient, barely competant is actuall 'enough'.
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I don't know your definition of what is 'ride very well', 'master basic machine control' and 'barely competent'. You might have different competence levels in mind than I do.
But I would say you need to learn pretty good machine control, in order to pass the test.
As you say, a lot of the training and test is about traffic management - however, good traffic management pre-supposes (very) good machine control.
Examples:
You are at a busy roundabout, waiting for your gap, you need to have good machine control so you can take advantage of any small (but sufficiently safe) gap you see coming - any mistakes with machine control may result in stalling or worse, and could be very dangerous.
Tight left turns require good machine control with clutch control and balance at low speeds while turning.
And others... if your machine control is 'barely competent' so you actually have to think about every lever press, throttle twist and gear change you make, rather than making them without thinking (in the 'lots of experience' sense), then obviously observations and the rest of traffic management will suffer and mistakes will follow.
And of course the whole of mod1!
So, while the test is indeed all about traffic management, this cannot be done successfully without good machine control to begin with.
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| Posted: 10:52 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: Re: The route to A class: My DAS progress |
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yaigi
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| Posted: 10:52 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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Please please please don't let him tell you you should be doing the test on a smaller bike. I was told this after my CBT, and went along that road, got myself a 125 expecting to stay on it for a couple of years, then when I started my lessons the instructor I had for those was like "You know, you probably should do it on a big bike, you're good enough..." so I had a think about it, and started this thread:
https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=252753&highlight=
and well, if you read that, you will see my thoughts about how much easier it is to ride a bigger bike (IMHO). I passed my test a couple of weeks ago now and am currently trying to sell my 125 so I can get a big bike. Thank god I listened to the majority and not the one guy after my CBT
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ijmok
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| Posted: 11:30 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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Change your instructor, find one who suits you,
I did my DAS in 6 weeks from CBT to mod 2, (no intensive course)
2 of those weeks i didn't even have a lesson (test waiting times)
Other weeks i might of had 2 lessons though, (test weeks)
And I had Zero biking experience, the most I had done prior to my CBT was a Honda 90 down the side of the house, I’ve only driven for 5 years but that helps, all you need to do is learn to ride, not learn how a road works, that must make it easier
I get on very well with my instructor, and I’m sure that’s the key, he knew when and how to push me, but also knew when to back off, and when to let me learn by making a mistake.
I love my 600, it’s a real machine, id of been disappointed in anything less,
You paid for a DAS to get a Cat A, so that’s what you want, lord knows I never felt ready, even now I feel shaky (passed 6 Sept 12) but I survived my first big trip (1.5 h to Newport on the motorway) on Saturday, with only a few “friendly gestures” when filtering in stationary traffic on the M5,
Even took my O/H Pillion yesterday.
Chin up and get out there, find a great instructor, and get on riding into the sunset on the bike you want |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 12:09 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| DonDino wrote: | I don't know your definition of what is 'ride very well', 'master basic machine control' and 'barely competent'. You might have different competence levels in mind than I do. |
Almost certainly, and you have to ponder 'basic machine control' in terms of balance, accuracy and finesse. Purely putting the bike exactly where you want it, when you want it.
Negotiating a junction, or picking a gap onto a roundabout; actually there's NOT a lot of finesse and accuracy needed. Mainly its about judgement, and timing, being decisive and reacting to changing situation and having the awareness and empathy to make corrections where its not quite right.
This isn't quite so basic as simply having the co-ordination & mechanical empathy to put a bike between a series of cones accurately, consistently and smoothly, and id demanding more 'road-management'.
Scales of competance? Well, I suppose right at the bottom you have some-one who just cant ride. No balance no co-ordination, who surprises you they can walk and chew gum without tripping over or bumping into anything. (why can I put faces to this description  )
You then get basic CBT standard. Wobbly, but, can do the CBT excersises and get a bike moving and not fall over, weave through fairly wide spaced cones, and building up, string excersises together in simulated junctions etc, maybe not particularly smoothly, and possibly not without fault every time..... BUT, has the idea.
Building on that working towards Mod 1, its simply practice, and getting some better co-ordination and finesse, so that you can get through the slightly tighter & more complicated Mod 1 excersises and do it with a little more aplomb and consistency.
Its not a particularly high standard, in terms of finesse and accuracy, and it certainly doesn't require wonderful smoothness or balance. It is far from 'pretty good' riding. It IS only just 'adequate' to contend with daily road situations.
Now, difference between the two, to you may seem pretty big, but; go look at vid-clips of competition trials riding, or moto-gymkhana, and the level of shear machine empathy, balance, precision and finesse employed in those specialisations of pure fundemental machine control.
Now, stick the standard of machine control that gets you through a cbt as the tick-over speed on a rev counter; say 1000rpm, then put the championship standard exhibited in national level trials, or Moto-gym-Khana at the red line, say 10,000rpm.
Cruising revs, is what 4-5K, about half way between the two? That would be the standard of a 'pretty good' road rider.
Now you tell me where you think that the standard needed to get through test would fit? 1500rpm? Higher lower?
Its relative, and datum dependent. But take the wider limits, and the standards for CBT, and test are that high. If they were, then no-one would pass them without four or five years of dedicated practice before hand, would they?
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Spudly
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Spy
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| Posted: 13:29 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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OP here, interesting reading all your comments.
Firstly, I am not saying that the first instructor is wrong or right, he may very well be right but even so, I think his teaching skills could be better. Maybe, by giving more confidence I might master the weak spots better !
I don't know if I can handle a bigger bike better or worse as I haven't tried one !
In any case, I went our for 3 hours of roadcraft with the other instructor this morning, who owns the training company. In general, my on road skills, both reading the road, hazard perception, bike control, positioning, cornering etc seem to be good, or at least he had no issues with it.
I was making a couple of errors initially. One was doing left shoulder checks on roundabouts when going straight, instead of a right shoulder check and the other was not going slow enough on left turns. Both were pointed out and I fixed both during the remainder of the riding.
The only other thing I found challenging was at one point we hit some slow moving traffic. I was able to control the bike through the throttle, clutch and rear brake but at one point, the cars were crawling at not much more than 3mph which meant I was struggling to keep the bike balanced. Is this common ? Should I stop and allow a gap to open up so that I can ride the bike at more like 5mph and stop again ?
To be honest, unless I make a stupid mistake on the day or an extremely challenging situation arises that tests me, my Mod2 on a 125cc should be fine.
As I think I previously mentioned, I spent some time on the DSA Mod1 Test Pad yesterday and my slow bike control wasn't too bad - much better than the Saturday. I think I only put my foot down once on the figure of eight out of the 5 times I did it. The real challenge was not always hitting the right speed on the speed trap.
I am hoping to do more practice on the emergency stop and U turn tomorrow. The Emergency Stop I think needs some practice based on teh Pad work yesterday. Not because I can't stop but to avoid locking up the rear wheel and remembering the observations !
At the end of the day, if I get a licence that restricts me to 33Kwh for the next two years, I should still be able to buy a 600cc bike and stick a restrictor on it shouldn't I ? I believe all the restrictor does is cap the top end speed but not the acceleration ? |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 14:24 - 08 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | | Rogerborg wrote: | Up to you, but all they're saying is that they're not able to train you properly, and think you can "get away with it" on a smaller bike. |
No, they aren't! |
Aren't they? I apologise for the "quotes", it was a paraphrase of this:
| Spy wrote: | apparently the testers allow more minors on an A2 compared to an A |
So, is Spy mis-recollecting, or did they just flat out lie to him?
Getting a bike license via a training school is elective, it's not a trip to the NHS sickline. If you want to buy the missus truly epic tits, you just shop around until you find a slicer who'll take your money.
Paying for a training course leading to a test is pretty obviously about getting a license. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise, it's like getting the wife back with only one falsie stuffed in because Doctor Knows Best.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| new001 |
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| Spy |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 13 years, 108 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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