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woll
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PostPosted: 19:06 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Pensions Reply with quote
I'm thinking of starting to put a few quid away in a pension. I'm only 20 so i figured if i put like a hundred in a month by the time i get to retirement age I'll have a fair pension. I've had a quick look on natwest website at their pension thingy ma bobs. An it's safe to say i'm confued. any help?
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 19:10 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Will your work be contributing or will it just be you? What rate of tax do you pay?

Pensions are not always the best idea unless you get extra contributions from elsewhere. If you do get contributions from work and/or pay high tax they're great though.

If your work are making contibutions they will normally have their own scheme or a "group personal pension" plan that they link with. It's usually best to go with them as they have increased buying power.
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woll
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PostPosted: 19:17 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just me. As far as im aware my work dont have a pension scheme. Although they could have, I got bored of reading my contract never finished reading it or signing it for that manner. Should sort that sometime. Erm my tax code if 810L iirc.
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chrisw
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PostPosted: 19:25 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
My opinion? Pensions are the biggest financial con ever created.

General rules are (and if someone knows a product that contradicts, do tell):
    1) Pay in the hope of reaching a figure that seems good now but inflation will most likely render worthless.

    2) Pay into an account that you can't withdraw from and is difficult to move to other companies.

    3) Pay into an account that is a ready target for future governments to plunder.

    4) If personal - hope the company stays afloat until you retire. If workplace - hope you work in the same place for long, long time.

    5) Your money is used by 'bankers' to gamble with, for better or worse.

That alone has made me give up on the idea and look for alternative ways of securing a retirement (not that I expect to get there, morbid but most likely true).
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J4mes
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PostPosted: 19:29 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Buy some gold every year!
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
woll wrote:
Just me. As far as im aware my work dont have a pension scheme. Although they could have, I got bored of reading my contract never finished reading it or signing it for that manner. Should sort that sometime. Erm my tax code if 810L iirc.


Look at that first - employer contributions are the bit that really make it worthwhile.

Tax code doesn't mean much as far as top end tax is concerned, I'll assume you aren't on 40% (ie earning over £40k ish).

I'm not an advisor so get some real advice, but... if it were me (and assuming work won't contribute) I would look at getting on the property market first. Stick your money somewhere you can access and build up a deposit - a home will be one less bill once you retire, and assuming you do move up the ladder as you get older you'll even be able to release equity. Traditionally in the UK property has gone up faster and more consistently than any other investment, you'll also be paying yourself with each mortgage payment rather than a landlord.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 19:58 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
chrisw wrote:
My opinion? Pensions are the biggest financial con ever created.

General rules are (and if someone knows a product that contradicts, do tell):


I'll give it a go Wink

chrisw wrote:
1) Pay in the hope of reaching a figure that seems good now but inflation will most likely render worthless.


All of my pension statements have the words "at today's rates" on them - the figures seem good now and will be inflation adjusted.

chrisw wrote:
2) Pay into an account that you can't withdraw from and is difficult to move to other companies.


Can't withdraw until you retire, which is kind of the point (some of us don't have the iron will to not touch money Wink Once you retire you can take 25% tax free as a lump sum, the rest is to buy an annuity.

Transferring is easy nowadays - just phone up the new company and they'll handle it for you.

chrisw wrote:
3) Pay into an account that is a ready target for future governments to plunder.


My pension (like most people's) is held by a private company - the company couldn't take it from them any more than they could just withdraw your money from your savings account.

chrisw wrote:
4) If personal - hope the company stays afloat until you retire. If workplace - hope you work in the same place for long, long time.


I believe private pensions have a backing by the treasury up to some value, after that you should really get your accountant to diversify your investments (not a worry for most of us).

Workplace pensions tend to be GPPs now, but they're also meant to be transferable too.

chrisw wrote:
5) Your money is used by 'bankers' to gamble with, for better or worse.


I can certainly choose my own funds or even individual investments - I control the risk to some extent. If you don't want your money gambled with then there is always the mattress and getting nothing back (but really you're gambling on not having a fire and not getting robbed).

There are no safe investments anywhere; but you can choose what level of risk you want. Pensions tend to be a reasonably safe bet, the biggest controversies in recent times tending to be people comparing their pension pot with previous years and finding it's gone down - what they forget to compare is their contributions vs what they've still got.

In short, if you can find a better investment for someone already on the property ladder than a pension (assuming workplace contributions and/or higher rate tax payer status) I'd be amazed.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 20:03 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you can be sensible enough to let it accumulate, an ISA might be a better option.
There used to be tax advantages for paying into pensions but at the end of the day they are companies taking their own profit off your money.
You would retain greater flexibility - for example no penalty if you wanted to draw a sum out for deposit on property - still the best investment for most people.
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woll
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PostPosted: 20:07 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe a pension isn't the best idea then lol. I have been thinking of getting a deposit saved for a mortgage. Maybe I should stick it in an isa n get saving for a house instead Thinking
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
doggone wrote:
If you can be sensible enough to let it accumulate, an ISA might be a better option.
There used to be tax advantages for paying into pensions but at the end of the day they are companies taking their own profit off your money.
You would retain greater flexibility - for example no penalty if you wanted to draw a sum out for deposit on property - still the best investment for most people.


There are companies taking a profit on your ISA too, and there still are tax advantages to paying into a pension!

There was even talk recently of allowing property investments as part of a pension.

I personally think property is the number one, but I also think pensions are too easily dismissed by many who don't really understand them.

I paid in 4% of my salary for about 6 years and despite the recession really hurting some of the funds I already have ~£50k in there. The rest came from employer contributions, SSP and tax relief. Even my house hasn't earnt me that much in that time!
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WillOdling
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nfu mutual do a good stocks and shares ISA

When you get a decent sum saved use it as a deposit on a house then rent it out and let it pay for itself.

Buy cheap houses circa 100k so you only need 10k deposit (10% on a BTL)

200 a month and you could get one every 4 years Thumbs Up
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chrisw
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:

chrisw wrote:
3) Pay into an account that is a ready target for future governments to plunder.


My pension (like most people's) is held by a private company - the company couldn't take it from them any more than they could just withdraw your money from your savings account.


You've missed the point I was angling for there. Taxes. Money someone has already save is a very easy target.

Your other points are interesting but are the same I hear from anyone that's already paying into a pension and are not enough to persuade me it's a solid investment - not by itself anyway. (The easy transfer was new, so Thumbs Up )
As you alluded to, a diverse set of investments is key but that's not something you can easily do if you're already ploughing cash into a pension fund (although that is dependent on your income).

Last edited by chrisw on 20:41 - 03 Nov 2012; edited 1 time in total
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 20:41 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
WillOdling wrote:
Buy cheap houses circa 100k so you only need 10k deposit (10% on a BTL)

200 a month and you could get one every 4 years Thumbs Up


That's a rather blasé explanation you give there. It suggests either a) you've not done it or b) you have a lot more than the £10k deposits required.

A 10% deposit is not the end of it, you tend to have to fix up the houses bought on a budget (if you don't fix them up then you're buying the wrong ones). Then you have to have a decent emergency fund in case the boiler goes or the patio doors fall off or one of your tenants moves out without telling you and the environmental health go mad because they've left 3 months worth of rotting rubbish in the outside loo/coal shed*.

*all of these things have happened to me
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Kradmelder
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PostPosted: 20:45 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
The problem with a company pension is if you leave, generally you lose their contribution, and it is paid out. It is a way to lock in employees. Government is especially bad for this. If you are a degreed professional generally you can have a private pension not linked to a company, pension pay outs are part of your package, and you dont pay tax on money you stick in there.


That is here anyway.

For me it is like soubling my savings since i dont pay tax on that saving. And it is a way to legally send cash overseas.
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WillOdling
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PostPosted: 20:47 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
WillOdling wrote:
Buy cheap houses circa 100k so you only need 10k deposit (10% on a BTL)

200 a month and you could get one every 4 years Thumbs Up


That's a rather blasé explanation you give there. It suggests either a) you've not done it or b) you have a lot more than the £10k deposits required.

A 10% deposit is not the end of it, you tend to have to fix up the houses bought on a budget (if you don't fix them up then you're buying the wrong ones). Then you have to have a decent emergency fund in case the boiler goes or the patio doors fall off or one of your tenants moves out without telling you and the environmental health go mad because they've left 3 months worth of rotting rubbish in the outside loo/coal shed*.

*all of these things have happened to me



B is correct, also have money is aside for emergencies etc like last year the boiler going on December the 22nd Rolling Eyes
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
chrisw wrote:
You've missed the point I was angling for there. Taxes. Money someone has already save is a very easy target.


The key here is that they can tax any investment if they suddenly feel like it. You run that risk however you invest.

In fact, they did it a while ago - quantitative easing was/is essentially a tax on every bit of money in circulation.

chrisw wrote:
Your other points are interesting but are the same I hear from anyone that's already paying into a pension and are not enough to persuade me it's a solid investment - not by itself anyway. (The easy transfer was new, so Thumbs Up )
As you alluded to, a diverse set of investments is key but that's not something you can easily do if you're already ploughing cash into a pension fund (although that is dependent on your income).


The thing with a pension is that it's relatively small - you don't notice 3% (the normal matched contribution) when it goes out your pay packet.

I ask again though, what other than your home is a better investment than an employer matched pension? As an example, lets assume we're earning £25k:

Each year at 3% that's £562.50 out of your income (an extra £187.50 goes in courtesy of Mr Osbourne, making £750). Then, your employer puts in £750. That's a grand total (without any interest) of £1500. All for your £562.50 investment. I do not know anywhere else you can almost triple your money without getting very, very lucky.
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Kradmelder
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PostPosted: 20:54 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
chrisw wrote:
You've missed the point I was angling for there. Taxes. Money someone has already save is a very easy target.


The key here is that they can tax any investment if they suddenly feel like it. You run that risk however you invest.

In fact, they did it a while ago - quantitative easing was/is essentially a tax on every bit of money in circulation.

chrisw wrote:
Your other points are interesting but are the same I hear from anyone that's already paying into a pension and are not enough to persuade me it's a solid investment - not by itself anyway. (The easy transfer was new, so Thumbs Up )
As you alluded to, a diverse set of investments is key but that's not something you can easily do if you're already ploughing cash into a pension fund (although that is dependent on your income).


The thing with a pension is that it's relatively small - you don't notice 3% (the normal matched contribution) when it goes out your pay packet.

I ask again though, what other than your home is a better investment than an employer matched pension? As an example, lets assume we're earning £25k:

Each year at 3% that's £562.50 out of your income (an extra £187.50 goes in courtesy of Mr Osbourne, making £750). Then, your employer puts in £750. That's a grand total (without any interest) of £1500. All for your £562.50 investment. I do not know anywhere else you can almost triple your money without getting very, very lucky.


3%? here we can put away up to 15% and not pay tax. I can claim uop to 30% on vehicles and not pay tax (if I can prove km). You need to right off as much as possible and not pay tax on it.

Medical you can only claim tax free if it is more than 15% of your income.

Not payin tax is an immediate 40% growth on your income. No investment beats that
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 21:01 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kradmelder wrote:
3%? here we can put away up to 15% and not pay tax. I can claim uop to 30% on vehicles and not pay tax (if I can prove km). You need to right off as much as possible and not pay tax on it.

Medical you can only claim tax free if it is more than 15% of your income.

Not payin tax is an immediate 40% growth on your income. No investment beats that


3% is what companies tend to match for most people. I was lucky at my last place and got 4% and the company put in 6% (the upper limit is something like 25% tax free).

Considering Pensions are taxed on the way out they're not always the best idea unless the company does the matching.

The rules for those self employed are very different and you can get 40p per mile, re-invest in the business, take dividends rather than salary, all kinds of fun stuff to avoid paying a lot. But, like most people in the UK I mainly worked for other people and the rules are different (with the benefit of no need to do your own taxes).
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:11 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
I will never get a pension. No idea why, but I've always been of the opinion that I'll be in a position some day where I don't need one. I'm not a big spender so I can save by myself without asking someone to look after it for me. Not that I have any savings right now though Laughing
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 22:40 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
sa1988 wrote:
I will never get a pension. No idea why, but I've always been of the opinion that I'll be in a position some day where I don't need one. I'm not a big spender so I can save by myself without asking someone to look after it for me. Not that I have any savings right now though Laughing


This just confuses me...

Your argument is "I'm not going to save in a way that maximises my savings*, I'd prefer not to have as much given to me and pay tax on it". Odd...

It's not "you looking after it anyway" I assume you're not stuffing the mattress so any savings account you have is looked after by someone else.

Every argument I've ever heard against pensions doesn't stack up, even on the most basic of calculations - explain to me how else you're going to nearly triple your money before even factoring in compound interest?



*assuming as I keep doing - you can get an employer to match it and/or pay tax.
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Kradmelder
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
Kradmelder wrote:
3%? here we can put away up to 15% and not pay tax. I can claim uop to 30% on vehicles and not pay tax (if I can prove km). You need to right off as much as possible and not pay tax on it.

Medical you can only claim tax free if it is more than 15% of your income.

Not payin tax is an immediate 40% growth on your income. No investment beats that


3% is what companies tend to match for most people. I was lucky at my last place and got 4% and the company put in 6% (the upper limit is something like 25% tax free).

Considering Pensions are taxed on the way out they're not always the best idea unless the company does the matching.

The rules for those self employed are very different and you can get 40p per mile, re-invest in the business, take dividends rather than salary, all kinds of fun stuff to avoid paying a lot. But, like most people in the UK I mainly worked for other people and the rules are different (with the benefit of no need to do your own taxes).


Then that is 6 pct, plus 40 pct of your 4 pct. Nearly 8 pct free money there. Do you keep the company contribution if you change jobs?

For us their is no income after you retire unless you have a pension. So it is essential.

The only time I worked corporate I got 7.5 pct company contribution and 7.5 from me. But when I left just got mine. I then had to rrinvest or would have to pay tax on it. I'm not cut out to do the office work corporate thing. Besides, as a white male it is best to stay out of management here. All the affirmative actions want those posts so it is open season on you. Far better off staying technical and private, consulting.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:48 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:

This just confuses me...

Your argument is "I'm not going to save in a way that maximises my savings*, I'd prefer not to have as much given to me and pay tax on it". Odd...

It's not "you looking after it anyway" I assume you're not stuffing the mattress so any savings account you have is looked after by someone else.

Every argument I've ever heard against pensions doesn't stack up, even on the most basic of calculations - explain to me how else you're going to nearly triple your money before even factoring in compound interest?



*assuming as I keep doing - you can get an employer to match it and/or pay tax.


Honestly you're right about everything, I'm sure. It's just some kind of admittedly stupid unjustified mental barrier/block/opinion I have.

I suddenly feel like I should consider it now!......
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 23:00 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
sa1988 wrote:
Honestly you're right about everything, I'm sure. It's just some kind of admittedly stupid unjustified mental barrier/block/opinion I have.

I suddenly feel like I should consider it now!......


Like I said, it's odd. You're certainly not alone though - so many people have a fixed opinion about pensions. I'm a programmer and so work with a lot of logical, mathematically trained people and yet they too have this in built hatred of pensions.

They're not the only thing you should rely on by any means, but they certainly should be considered by anyone with access to a scheme where the company contributes.

I am not an advisor though, so do look into it yourself. I'm just stating my views but I think nearly everyone would be pleasantly surprised if they looked into it.
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 03 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:


They're not the only thing you should rely on by any means, but they certainly should be considered by anyone with access to a scheme where the company contributes.




Thats the killer point, how many people have jobs where your employer will match any payments in?

The law changed last month and the government forces a 1% payment into their scam. And the employer to put in 1% as well (this will rise +1% every year). What has happened now? Employers are handing out pension opt out forms in addition to working time directive opt out forms.

daemonoid wrote:

I am not an advisor though, so do look into it yourself. I'm just stating my views but I think nearly everyone would be pleasantly surprised if they looked into it.



Which is another funny point. On paper it looks great NOW. Who knows what it will look by 2050 ? My whole dad's generation got caught up in the pensions wheeze. It sounded fantastic back then. His employer put in loads too. He put in loads.

He got what he was promised. His council tax bill wipes out his pension savings. While his mate who didn't save gets some sort of credit which covers his council tax. So he's no better off.
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syl
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PostPosted: 00:26 - 04 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
A pension is generally a good investment.

My only concern re: the new pension scheme is that if you don't save much, you'll only get a small payout - however that might be enough to make sure you don't get any benefits. At the end of the day you may find that you get the same amount as someone who didn't save a penny.
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