Riding on ice?

[BravoCharlie]

Hullo!

Posting here as any answer i receive may help other newbies

i was wondering if anyone out there had any advice on riding on ice? there's going to be some moments where i absolutely HAVE to ride the bike this winter and as i've never rode on ice before, im a little worried!

I binned my bike last week and it should be back on the road tomorrow, so any advice on icy travels would be appreciated
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Current: Kawasaki ZL600 Eliminator
Past: Suzuki GZ125, Kawasaki GT550, Kawasaki GPX600R, Honda vrx400,Kawasaki Zephyr 750, Suzuki SV650 K5
Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.

[lihp]

bikes fall over on ice

[BravoCharlie]

more an observation than advice, but well spotted!
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Current: Kawasaki ZL600 Eliminator
Past: Suzuki GZ125, Kawasaki GT550, Kawasaki GPX600R, Honda vrx400,Kawasaki Zephyr 750, Suzuki SV650 K5
Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.

[Irn-Bru]

Honestly, unless you have spiked tires it's a lost battle unless it's just a small patch - consider public transport. If you mean slushy snow, well it's not so bad, ride in the car tyre tracks and you should be alright. I managed to ride through winter on a scooter once, even that would lose traction under acceleration at some points, and to get in my street I had to get off and push because the council neglected to grit anything other than main roads. Avoid heavy braking, plan well ahead, leave a decent gap between you and car in front, careful on hills etc.
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KTM 990 SMT & Suzuki DR-Z 400 SM

[doggone]

If you really must you can chug along on sheet ice with both feet down like outriggers.
The slightest bit too much throttle or touch of brake and it will try to go down.
If you enounter a steep icy stretch you might have to resort to walking alongside attempting to push it in first gear

In practice you can often find a bit right at the edge that is more grippy. In short you don't want to do it, and if your bike isn't cracked or bent when you set off it probably will be by the time you arrive.

Snow is slightly better but not a whole lot of fun - although trail bike nobblies might be rather good in it.

[J.M.]

[Dave70]

Was wondering about this myself, as I'd heard/read about others riding in such conditions.

But, thanks to what I've read in this thread, my instinct is confirmed.

Think I'll give it a miss. My shiny fairings don't like meeting the ground. Need to get a second bike for this kind of stuff I think

[Val]

If you see or feel ice, gently reduce speed with the trottle, try not to steer when you are reducing the speed, do not touch the brakes and pray. Touch the bike as it is made from glass. Relax but prepare yourself for some offroad like moves. If you want to be really prepared find offroad training course and try what actually is to ride bike on ice.

Invest some money in proper winter tyres like Conti Navigator M+S (mud and snow), in temperature under 7 degrees Celsius the rubber compound for winter tyres stick way better to the road including ice, the tyre recomendation in my country is if there are 3 days in a row under 7 degrees you change your tyres to winter ones

However for long term snow and ice riding you will need studded tyres, you can buy some winter tyres with studs or you can do DYI studs which in some ways is better:

https://www.snowmobiletrails.com/moto/index.html


not sure how legal is this in UK, some countries does not allow studs on tyres because they will damage the road if there is no snow or ice.


https://www.motorace.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=M&Category_Code=tre

winter riding without studded winter tyres

I have tried once riding a bike with summer tyres in snow and ice and will never try again, although there are people that do that safely, see some advice from Norway

https://www.mc-addict.com/aguidetowinterriding.htm
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Yamaha Fazer FZS 600, MT09, XSR 900

[Louise]

Last year was pretty awfull riding on ice - As above both feet down, but too much of something and it will want to go over.
Had my first slip on Ice on friday evening, exiting a roundabout to join the M27 and the back twitched

[mic]

id like to think an element of frostyness added to todays off. it was crap i didnt enjoy it.

decided that slipping on a bike is shit so 2 feet down at snails pace sounds good if thats what it takes.
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zzr600

[BravoCharlie]

[daemonoid]

As above, feet as outriggers and changes in speed are to be avoided. Above all though - don't be too precious about your bike and learn how to pick it back up.
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@thomasgarrard | www.straitjkt.com | www.racingseven.com

[Rogerborg]

Snow isn't really a problem, but if you're absolutely determined to ride when there's a chance of ice, then fit crash protection to the bike and yourself.

"Black" ice is a slight misnomer. It means invisible ice. The first you'll know about it is that the planet is rapidly approaching your face.

There's no journey that's short enough to be safe: I got caught out 50 yards from my house, on a bright, sunny morning.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Vracktal]

A good trick I know with outrigging that I use when I come across a patch of ice is to stick both feet down and slide them, but not splayed out like i would if I was stopped at a set of lights. Instead, I slide the feet but keep my legs tucked tight against the sides of the bike, which helps because it means the bike can't slide out from under you as easily.

Been doing that ever since I came a cropper on ice a while ago and it's worked fine every time I tried since.

[haroman666]

I had the back end kick out the other day before it was very icy. My fault for accelerating too hard while still turning. But in short, best avoid ice really.

Mountain bike on ice however... Great fun
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The mistresses: 2000 Honda CBR600f, 2000 Honda VTR1000

[Teflon-Mike]

Ice isn't 'slippery'.

Stop blustering, bear with me, I shall explain! Ice, is chrystaline H2O, and scientifically speaking, it's not all that slippery. The slipperyness of 'stuff' depends on many things, like how smooth they are.

Polished steel, is probably as if not more inherently 'slippery' than ice, which is why we make low friction ball bearings out of the stuff; but in a slightly more 'rough' form, we have a metal file, which is rather less 'slippery'.....

Bearings... a device for reducing frictiontional resistance between moving objects..... have you greased your bearings lately?

I ask because 'lubrication', a liquid or semi liquid substance that has the property of helping further reduce frictional resistance in a bearing.... essentially by 'smoothing' the surface even more from the 'smooth' polished surface, filling in the ridges and furrows of the interface at a microscopic layer and taking the smoothness down to shear planes at an almost molecular level.....

Lubrication..... THIS is the 'Key' and what makes Ice 'slippery'.

Curious property of Ice, is that under pressure, its self lubricating.

Liquid water reaches maximum density at 4 degrees C, to 'freeze' the molecules have to adopt a very open crystal structure, and expand in volume to do so, which is why Ice floats in water.

NOW, put Ice under pressure... squash it.... the molecules all want to scrunch up and compress, BUT, they are in this crystal and the only way that they can do that is to give up the nice ordered crystalline arrangement, and 'Melt'.

So, what makes Ice slippery when you stand on it, is not that it is any more inherently 'slippery' than say, glass, or nylon, or steel... but where you put pressure on it..... the surface 'melts' and provides a layer of lubricating 'liquid' water.

Lot of waffle to get there, but, worth noting, BECAUSE...

Tyres are made of rubber, and rubber is, as far as materials go, pretty damn gripy..... Provided there is no 'lubrication' between it and whatever its trying to grip.

Tyres, are made of rubber, and even better, road tyres at least have 'relief grooving' or a tread patern that is specifically designed to squeegee water out from under the tyre, so it can grip whatever is underneath.

SO! and getting there the long way.... 'Ice' is just solid water, and the scary slippy thing is not the ice, but when ice melts and becomes water again....

ARE YOU SCARED OF RAIN?

I ask, because dealing with ice, is merely an incremental step from dealing with rain.

In the dry you trust your tyres to grip tarmac, right? Then when it rains, you get this layer of lubrication, and you get a bit worried about it, and grip is reduced, BUT you learn that the tyres can deal with it, tread squeegees the stuff out the way, and they still grip. Maybe not to the same limit, but they DO still offer grip.... and track racers lap times show that the limit of grip is not so HUGELY reduced that bikes might only go half the speed... wit lap times are only maybe 10% down on dry laps..... so the limit of grip is only dropped 10% or so in the rain.

Back to ice... lets talk Frost first.

The ice isn't the slippy bit, its the melt water created when you put pressure on it that's 'slippy'.....

So, nice whit chrystaline 'frost'.... we have frozen dew drops on the tarmac surface, and when you ride on them.... they melt... become water, and the tyres can squeegee that water away.

Light 'frost' need not be any REAL worry. As you ride over the stuff, it melts away, and its little different to a light summer shower in terms of how much water is under the tyre and how much 'contact' you have between rubber and road.

I have few qualms riding out onto a nice what 'frosted' road. It has a certain glittery winter wonderland texture, but I can sort of 'see' the colour of the road beneath, 'whited' by the frost... which means that its crystal ice, and there's not too much of it, and when I roll over it, it will melt, and grooving in the tyres and the tarmac ought to dispell most of it.

BIT of caution, not a problem.

So.. non-virgin frost... same deal, but I can see tyre tracs in it from neighbors cars... confirms that there is tarmac beneath, and that driving over it melts the ice, and dispels the water..... BUT, there is now water that has been melted by previous vehicles....

There is here a 'worry', in that that melted water must have gone some-where, and having melted under pressure, pressure removed, it will freeze again, and THEN rather than being nice dew-ice, it will form sheet-ice, which is a slightly different animal, and get to in a second.

BUT, as long as its not a heavy frost, then ought not be that much water, and in all liklihood, the melt water will soak into the cracks in the tarmac, and you will have 'veins' of ice around the gravel, rather than continiouse sheet, and to all extents and purposes it ought be NO worse than driving any other 'wet' road.

So we get to 'snow'. Think big frost.

White is good, means light and fluffy and melts easily. Falling snow, often wont 'settle' and wont even need ground pressure of a vehicle rolling over it to melt, ground heat is enough to melt it almost as soon as it touches the floor!

We merely have another 'wet' road, and snow, less dense than water, remember, possibly less water on the surface than a heavy rain storm.

IF it settles.... though, clue is that ground temperature is low enough that it stays frozen..... but, THEN its not a lot different to frost, and light and fluffy, when you drive over it, ought to melt and let you find the tarmac beneath.

But depends how deep or thick it is. If its more than a few mm, then tyre may have trouble melting enough and clearing enough to get to the surface beneath... BUT, you will be making a 'rut' and what water is melted out by your tyre will drain into the snow around that rut, and the rut itself, and the snow WILL provide 'some' tyre support and grip.... not a LOT, not its not a total loss, and you CAN still ride or drive on it.

Brings us to compressed snow.... which is more troublesome; previously squashed and melted, but not 'cleared' melt water soaks down, and can re-freeze and forma glass-like layer under the snow, so tyre compresses the surface, and melts that, but doesn't find tarmac beneath, it finds re-frozen ice. You still have the rut effect though.....

Trick is slow and smooth... like dealing with a wet road..... only more so!

AND the reality, particularly in this country, is that we don’t often get THAT much snow, and its rarely SO cold to so easily re-freeze.... AND we are 'lucky' that our authorities 'salt' the roads, to help lower the melting pint and dispel much of it as water.

Which brings me to RISK and PERCEIVED risk, and the frequent gulf betwixt the two, which is something I get to a LOT!

Many things scare us out of proportion to how much real danger they pose. That's what sells horror movies.

Its also what sells a lot of crash-helmets and over priced motorcycle gear.... very easy to make people scared.

Very DIFFICULT to get people to accurately assess 'risk' and deal with it accordingly! Gamblers so frequently under-estimate risk, and loose money, or crash bikes or cars, ignoring the risks, the more cautious, over-estimating risks and missing opportunities not taking them.

Sheet-Ice, where surface water, either from snow or frost melt has re-frozen or from standing water freezing, is the 'main' hazard.

Doesn't usually cover roads edge to edge and end to end though, like an ice risk, roads have a camber so water runs to the gutter at the edges, and it's incredibly rare to get edge to edge sheet ice, over a very long section of road.

Where you do get large areas of sheet ice is on more 'broken' roads where the cambr isn't so good, or ones with ruts that 'hold' the water in the ruts... THEN in lower lying areas of road, dips and the bottoms of hills.

READING the terrain, you can usually spot where sheet ice is most likely to form, though....

So its ALL down to hazard awareness and observation, and NOT riding where the ice is likely to be 'worse'.

And this is the 'thing'.... diesel spills, mud on the road, loose chippings, can be pretty fairly unpredictable.... yup, good chance of a diesel spill on a petrol station forecourt, or on a traffic island near a truck depot.. but CAN happen almost anywhere, and be hard to predict. Mud similar; more chance of meeting it in the country, especially around ploughing time, but I've come round corners in urban areas to discover it coming out of a building site or flung from a tractor delivering spuds or something!

ICE and where its most likely to be found, ought to actually be LESS 'unpredictable', in where and when you might encounter it.... hence be MORE 'avoidable'.

This doesn't make it 'safe', but it DOES mean that the 'risk' the 'hazard' actually represents is slightly mitigated.

Which brings me back to the question, "are you scared of the rain?"

Because, what we are dealing here, is just another 'hazard' like many, MANY others we have to deal with every day.

It reduces grip, yes, but same techniques you use for wet roads, work for snow & frost. hazard awareness, slow, smooth, progressive riding. Reduces grip more than rain, yes, but doesn't totally rob you of ALL of it. Its just another incremental notch down the scale.

AND, taking it as a grip reducing hazard, its actually more predictable than say a diesel spill. More of it around, on more roads on cold days.... so take the hint, do you want to go deal with them or not, when that cold.... but of you do.... well, you know its going to be there... and you ought to know what to look for.

So... tips for dealing with the stuff? As anything else, and basic advice, same as I offer so frequently for any other 'hazard'.

- DONT let fear rule reason

- Keep your wits about you.

- Relax - don't stress

- Smooth & Progressive 'Cool-Riding'.

- And Biking is supposed to be FUN..... if its doing your head in, stressing you out, and scaring the bajeebuz out of you.... it ent fun... catch the bus!
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[BravoCharlie]

thanks for all the advice guys!

unfortunately i tried it today. i did not like. think i'll be taking public transport a lot this month. sucks.
____________________
Current: Kawasaki ZL600 Eliminator
Past: Suzuki GZ125, Kawasaki GT550, Kawasaki GPX600R, Honda vrx400,Kawasaki Zephyr 750, Suzuki SV650 K5
Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.

[Dave70]

@ Teflon Mike.

I almost feel like crying when I come upon one of your posts.

Not because they're bad, far from it. But, because I know it's gonna be a long read and full of indepth, useful information that just has to be absorbed and no matter how little time I have to have a quick look at a thread, I just can't tear myself away.

Top man you is +1

Ps. Still ain't riding in no snow or ice though

[Slacker24seve...]

Gun it everywhere and brake with maximum effort whenever possible.
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Triumph Daytona 675 track bike + girlfriend's Honda Hornet 600
Selling a hack/winter bike for less than a grand? PM me.
Banger rallies are ace

[mentalboy]

[BravoCharlie]

lol, not sure if you guys think i'm ENTIRELY new to biking, or planet earth for that matter.

cheers for the advice, although you should maybe add a disclaimer in case someone takes it and dies.
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Current: Kawasaki ZL600 Eliminator
Past: Suzuki GZ125, Kawasaki GT550, Kawasaki GPX600R, Honda vrx400,Kawasaki Zephyr 750, Suzuki SV650 K5
Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.

[mic]

havent thought this thru fully (i.e. gearchanges) but maybe gaffataping small skis to the bottom of your boots?
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zzr600

[Slacker24seve...]

[mentalboy]

^^^
Slacker you need some new crampons, those look ready to fall apart - especially if you use them on those boots!
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Make mine a Corona.