why don't motocross bikes ever have mag wheels?

[trevor saxe-coburg-gotha]

Anyone know why motocross bikes and scramblers etc always have wire spoked wheels and not mags? I'm guessing it's because spokes have a tiny bit more give in them and so handle better on rough ground. Is that right?

[orac]

cast metal is brital, you jump that thing and the wheels colapse your screwed. spoked wheel will buckle (will colpase under extreme conditions), but at least you wont end up in smelly heap o the track with a bike wedged in your arse
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[trevor saxe-coburg-gotha]

Right - thanks for that!

[stinkwheel]

As said. Spoked wheels are WAY stronger than cast ones. The spokes act in tension. Imagine how much force it takes to snap a spoke by pulling on either end.
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[Snorty]

[Shinigami]

think it could be the difficulty of having tubeless tires on a spoked wheel?
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"Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.

[Kradmelder]

[Bikermice]

[Snorty]

For mass manufacturing, cast wheels are the better option, I understand, but I'm guessing spoked wheels are lighter, and as said, tougher - so I wonder why they don't use them in MotoGP/Racing where they have the time and tech to make sure it's right.
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Current: Yamaha FZ1 '07 | GSXR 750 SRAD

Past: CB125TDC | TZR125 | GPZ500 | CBR600F3 | ZX9-R | GSXR1000 K4

[Bomberman]

[chris-red]

[Irn-Bru]

I think you can still get carbon spoked wheels, fairly sure I saw a 690 SMC with them on 'tinternet.

Also, KTM do tubeless (tubliss I think they're called) spoked wheels, cool stuff means fixing a puncture is easier on the go.

Spoked wheels are a pain in the arse to clean, that would be my no.1 disadvantage as a lazy man
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KTM 990 SMT & Suzuki DR-Z 400 SM

[garth]

I want plastic mag wheels like a bmx so I can put them in the freezer to unbuckle them.

[daemonoid]

Spoked wheels don't hold up as well to sheering forces as cast.

The benefit of spokes as mentioned is they work under tension, which is great for impacts and upright travel. Cast wheels have a high overall rigidity (can handle tension and compression) which makes them good for impacts, upright travel and cornering.
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[trevor saxe-coburg-gotha]

[lifeisforlivi...]

My excel spoked wheels are awesome and take lots of punishment. I drive over raised roundabouts and some illegal cutting through over grass areas to save time on my commute. I believe that the tension is distributed depending on where the force is applied.

[Irn-Bru]

I used to ride up the path on a certain bit of my commute to college when I had my DTR, as the cagers would block off the lane I wanted... heard the police aren't too fond of such antics though!
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KTM 990 SMT & Suzuki DR-Z 400 SM

[pepperami]

Why dont off-roaders have cast wheels?

All of the above and because the likelyhood of coming off when riding an off-roader is higher.

With spoked wheels you can only fit your hand in the spokes before it will jam
With a cast wheel there is a chance you could get your whole arm in .

That is why when I was playing Moto-ball (you-tube) we would only allow spoked wheels
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I am the sum total of my own existence, what went before makes me who I am now!

[Teflon-Mike]

Hmm... remembering the debate many many years ago when cast or modular wheels started coming into common useage. A lot of racers still ran wire spokes back then instead of mags, by preference, and there were a lot of arguments for and against them; some having some seed of truth, some not.

https://www.ducati.ms/forums/attachments/sport-classic/80662d1290995610-new-wire-spoked-wheels-kineo-sc-kineo-maxi17.jpg

The 'cross-laced' wire spoke wheel. Came into being around the end of the 1800's, and a few folk attempt to claim credit for it's invention - Witworth & Rudge being a couple of names I associate with them.

Anyway, the 'key' to thier construction, is that wire is very strong under tension, much more so than it is under compression, and the wire laced wheel basically hangs the rim in 'tension' around the hub.

And you can gain rigidity from 'triangulation' angling spokes from either side of the hub, and crossing them from one side of the hub.

And building up a wheel from very slender wire columns, you can put strength pretty much were most effective, and not carry much redundant weight. So, the wheel can be very light and very strong.

Cart-Wheels of the era used wooden wheels with wooden spokes in compression, and for a heavy load, were adequetly strong, so some-what perplexing that the wire spoke wheel had any real advantages, BUT the craze of cycling had taken off, and for a bicycle keeping weight down was important, and tilting into corners, the bending strength of the wheel was shown to be of increased importance also, and triangulating a wire spoke wheel, gave it a lot more strength in bending than a wooden wheel in compression.

Right up until the 1960's, steel wire spoke wheels were lighter and stronger than even cast magnesium wheels and used on high performance sports cars and racing cars, as well as motorcycles.

Buy, second world war engineering advances, in aluminium and magnesium casting, for aeronautical applications had shown the benefits of alloys, which are most easily cast.

Magnesium has the advantage of being very light; I have seen some pictures of the cast mags off an AC Cobra racing car floating down a flooded pit-lane at Le-Mans, and I actually owned a set of 10" Magnesium race wheels for a Mini, which were so light you could litterally bounce like a basket ball (with the tyres of of course!)

For a car wheel, cast wheels were more practically possible. They tend to be smaller and wider and with careful girder sectioning, a rim could be made as strong where needed as a laced spoke wheel, and gain full advantage of the lighter material, especially as loadings are less variable in the horezontal plane.

But for bikes, with a larger, slimmer wheel, and with a wider range of angular loadings, it was harder to make a wheel as strong as a laced wire spoke wheel.

Which was why many racers in the 60's and 70's claimed they were better, becouse they often were stronger. Also heavier.... but with alloy hubs and rims, not so hugely.

https://www.startright.co.uk/images/20100113_0009.jpg

In racing the cast wheel was more quickly adopted; well financed factory teams could afford to use high cost aero-grade casting techniques to gain the strength as well as lightness, and treat the wheels almost as disposeable, perhaps throwing them away after a few races, before they cracked through metal fatigue, which was the main worry with them.

Filtering down to production road bikes, 'cheaper' cast wheels were often hugely over engineered, and seven or even nine spoke alloys were quite common, and often heavier than equivilent wire spoke wheels!

And fears over thier strength and longevity remained. There were a lot of allogorical accounts of early aloys cracking or stress fracturing, and they certainly cracked in impact.... I had a Kawasaki 7-spoke that was smashed into three pieces after hitting a kerb...... while the early Suzuki GSXR's were renouned in racing for the 'spindly' 18" alloys flexing under race loads!

However, in GP-Racing, there was a short-lived fasion for ever smaller wheels.

Road-bikes of the 1960's often ran 19" 20" or even 21" wheels, 1970's seeing the common standard around 18"/19". Most modern bikes run 17" diameter wheels. The extra leverage of those couple of inches between hub and rim can seriousely magnify the loadings on the spokes.

Smaller wheels meant less metal and less rubber, so the wheel was lighter before you started worrying about construction. It also meant that the loadings were smaller from less leverage between rim and hub, so it didn't have to be as strong, you started finding compound benefits as far as moments of inertia and gyroscopic stability etc, that all seemed to promote the vogue.

Many race bikes of the early 80's were running 16" wheels back and front, and something of a 'leap' when Kawasaki who had tended to keeping the larger 18 & 19" wheels on thier big bikes while others were coming down to 18", used 16"s front and back on the avante-guarde GPz600R....

I seem to recall a Bimota race bike that was running 15" wheels, and press commenting that if the vogue continued, bikes would be running scooter wheels soon!

Anyway, down-sizing rims was a big advantage to the adoption of the cast alloy wheel, and early 80's we had bikes running 16" front wheels and 17 or 18" rears, where until then bias had tended to be the other way around, with larger 19" front wheels paired with smaller 18" rears or similar... "For quicker steering" it was said.

But tyre technology was strugging to keep pace with motorcycle technology; and those old bikes were running tubed cross-ply tyres.

A mate bought a Honda CB900F in 1980.... blue on a W-Plate..... and that was teh first production bike any of us had seen that had 'Tubeless tyres' and yes, seriousely we all asked "So what do you do if you get a puncture?"

My 1984 VF1000 has a 140 section back tyre!..... thats 5.5"... by kageebus that was FAT for the day! The big Z's of the 70's usually ran 4.5" section tyres. The Original Honda CB750 'Four' ran a 3.25" front and 4.00" rear tyre. (In 1982, they launched the CB125 Super-Dream, with 3.00 front and 3.25 rear, sizings commonly used on 'big' 650's of that era!, YET we look at those now and think them 'skinny' even for a lightweight 125!)

ANYWAY...... lagging tyre technology, and vogue to smaller wheels to allow wider section tyres and gain other advantages helped significantly mitigate for the technical limitations of the cast alloy wheel, although its worth mentioning the interim technology of the 'composite' wheel.

https://www.stotfoldengineers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Astralites07.jpg

This was THE must have drool-worthy race accessory of the 1970's / 80's. The wheel was alloy, and made in a similar manner to the wire spoke wheel, in having a seperate rim, and hub, but instead of being laced together with triangulated wire spokes in tension, they were connected by alloy plates in compression.

Lighter than a wire spoked wheel, and many cast alloy wheels, they were 'almost' as strong, curtecy of triangulation and section, and certainly 'strong enough' for race aplications.

BUT, big advantage was that the seperate components, the hub, rim and spokes could be manufactured by different methods, and in different grades of material. The hub commonly cast, the rum, probably extruded, the plates from rolled sheet, or possibly even 'spun' basically moulded on a lathe, the metal 'spun' out from maybe a 4" billet, and moulded to shape with iron shaping tools pushed into the soft metal as centrifugal forces stretched it to final diameter.

With joints between rim and spoke and spoke and hub, the construction was said to offer the 'complience' of a wire spoke wheel, against cyclic fatigue and shock loading, and be less susceptible to cracking or fracturing.

This was the thinking behind Honda's original plate 'Com-Star" wheels of the mid 70's on.

https://images.canadianlisted.com/nlarge/honda-front-end-parts-and-comstar-wheel_5623992.jpg
(I just put Honda Comstar into google image search and got pictures of my own frigging CB125 wheels everwhere! GEEZ!)

OKAY!... moving on.... worth a mention here, becouse the first recorded use of Carbon-Fibre in motorcycle wheels was by Honda on the ill-fated NR500 spam-can piston four-stroke GP bike in the early 80's.

If any-one is interested, it's a much meligned motorcycle, and infamouse for being a spectacular flop, I believe winning just one GP podium positions in three seasons, that by Rocket Ron Haslam in a very wet race! Remembered mostly for Honda's perversion in tryin to beat the two-strokes with a regulation beating four stroke; its oval pistons being basically to make a V8 with siamesed cylinders so it was techniocally a V4 to meet FIM cylinder limits! and being an awful lot of technology for very little success!

HOWEVER.... technology debuted on the machine was a decade ahead of the competition, and a lot of what they learned on the NR500 went into the RC30... and later RVF, but thier use of advanced composite materials on the NR500 was phenominal.

In 1980, the David Essex / Bo Bridges film Silver Dream Racer was released.... utter-utter sap of the worst order, BUT I love that film! Race footage is wonderful and I still watch it, using the advanced technology of DVD 'slo-mo' to try and spot aspiring aces in the Brands and Silverstone sessions!...... err. where was I! Oh yes! Truth is stranger than fiction! Centre of the rather weak pappy on-off track race & love rivalry between Essex & Bridges (Wonderfully encapsulating the American Ace' Ego-Racer' steriotype of Mamola, Lawson & Co of the time, BTW!) was this BIKE.... which was created by some back garden boffin in his garage, and want to beat the world, curtecy of a 'Carbon-Fibre-Frame'.

Back then..... well, sliced bread was still a bit of a novelty, and the hight of materials advancement was probably Non-Crease school-Trousers! Carbon WHAT? Sounds like my mums Spaghetti! Remember even Magniesium was an exotic race material, and a dural gear-lever something to shout about! Could have been invented for the film.

Yet, at the time Heron Suzuki were playing with aluminium honey-comb compesites, skined in baco-foil at the time, but progressing towards Carbon, which sister team Galini had tried.

The Heron Suzuki is interesting, becouse they were breaking from 'tubular' convention, using tubular beams linking stress points in a chassis, and using 'sections' of laminate plate in effect. Very avante-guarde at the time for a motorcycle, but not unprecedented. When Suzuki pulled GP development in house, the technology was picked up by Armstrong who used a Rotax engine in a development of the Heron chassis, in full Carbon skinned carbon honey-comb form; raced to impressive effect by Kenny Irons & novice Niel McKenzy. The Gallini team and frame ended up being the basis for the Castillioni's GP endevours with teh Carbon framed Cagiva piloted by Mamola.

BUT... the S-D-R had a more conventional, tubular chassis formed from manderel wound carbon..... Oh YES it DID exist... I believe three working bikes were built for action footage, though not in Carbon.... that remained a close-up, and trailer bike.

But THAT was the construction used on the NR500...... which ALSO used carbon-fibre com-start wheels, which probably did more to further understanding of Carbon-Construction any other application. Honda evolved auto-clave negative pressure curing techniques, lay-up practices and preciccion fibre orientation, as well as pressed die forming carbon, for both the rim and spoke place construction, having to over come technical problems of bonded in hard-points where drilling carbon components lead to freying and fretting under load.

Yes... they weren't a wonderful success..... like the bike..... but point is that before even cast wheels became 'accepted' Honda were trying Carbon-Fibre!

Mid eighties, and we get to the now common 'hollow' three spoke.

https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partslists/yamaha-fzr1000bc-1991-front-wheel_bigyau1141f-7_e8a1.gif

Black & white pic, becouse factory scematic nicely shows the hollow spoke section.

Right, pioneered by I believe Marchesanis? And used on racing Bimota's with whome Yamaha had close technical relationship at the time; the hollow section cast alloy wheel, was a clever solution to many of the problems of the cast wheel.

To make a wheel stronger meant thicker spokes or more spokes. Both made the wheel heavier. Dymag in the UK were renouned for making some of the strongest-lightest magnesium wheels, but they did it by having deep girdered spokes, very carefully pressure 'Die' cast, demanding expensive tooling and very slow manufacturing cycle time, as the wheel had to be controll colled in the mould before it could be ejected and another one made.

The Marchesanisi Holoow spoke wheel, achieved a very high stiffness from minimal metal, by making big thick spokes.... but hollowing them out.... and as I understand, saved such expensive manufacturing costs by using a 'lost wax' process, so a slightly more refined version of simple gravity sand casting. Great for keeping low volume costs down, but not so great for making large volumes of wheels cheaply.

That was the task that Yamaha set to solving, 'productionising' the hollow spoke cast wheel, and I think they did it with a low-pressure die cast system.

And that is where we are at now. Materials technology and manufacturing technology basically being refined to minimise the problems of the cast wheel; softer more maleable alloy compositions helping avoid cyclic fatigue fracture and structural engineerig tackling the weight-strength issue....

BUT aided by the other trends LIKE the vogue towards smaller wheels, and wider tyres, that allow wider spoke structures, and reduce bending moments.

DIRT BIKES..... you suspected I may get there eventually!

Running over an uneven surface, the bigger the wheel the better. How easy it is for a wheel to 'ramp' a bump is significantly effected by the bump height and angle, in relation to the wheel radius.

Bigger the wheel, the earlier it encounters a bump, and on a shallower portion of the curve from the leading edge to the contact patch. And the more 'leverage' the wheel has to lift the bike over the bump.

This is the important bit, because, for an off-road machine, bigger wheels are better, and SO much better than having bigger wheels is a bigger advantage than better suspension.

Look at a pit-bike, with little 10" junior-cross wheels; despite quite advanced and reletively long travel suspension, they dont handle anywhere near as well as an old twin-shock bike, that has full size, 21/18 wheels, and bugger all suspension travel.

Brings us to a little question of why 21/18 on a dirt bike in the first place, and if bigger is better, why not bigger still? Why not 26" or full 30" or more?

Small matter of inside leg measurements, and the artificial impediment of competition regulations!

The 21" diameter front wheel of a dirt bike, and the coresponding 2.75" tyre sizes gives a rolling diameter of near as makes no odds 27". The 18" diameter of a dirt bike rear wheel, and the corresponding 4.00" tyre size, gives near as makes no odds 27".... These are the regulation wheel/tyre sizes for FIM regulated Trials competition. I think you can use smaller wheels or tyres, they are maximums, but not bigger. MX bikes often use smaller wheels, but I'm not sure about the tyre carcas sizing, think that may still be 4" or close on, but with extended knoble length gives 'bigger' effective tyre sizes, but brings rolling diameter back up close to that 27" 'norm'.... ish.

and that 27" norm, is the legacy of the 26" push-bike wheel with a 1" section tyre! Why?

Well, the Starley-Safety Cycle of 1885... the first modern push-bike with diamons triangulated frame, equal sized wheels and a chain driven rear wheel........ was conceived becouse poor old Joe was a bit of a short-arse! and a keen Penny-Farthing racer... struggled to win races against longer legged competitors who could get a bigger wheel between thier legs and not risk the family jewels on the down stoke of pedeling the fized crank So Our Jo decided that using an mechanical gearing system, he could get the same tall gearing of a bigger wheel..... and not risk his gonads....

Why 26" with 1" tyre? Well with a 26" inside leg..... that was just about the biggest wheel he could swing his leg over!" And its been with us ever since!

Back to the plot.... dirt bikes bigger wheels are better, limits to how migh you can make them constrained to some degree by how tall the bike can be and still be able to clamber onto the saddle, as well as competition regulations and available tyre sizes.

SO, we have not seen any trend towards smaller wheels that would aid the adoption of cast wheels on off-road bikes.

Next, road bike evolution has taken them to ever wider profile tyres. On dirt bikes, wider isn't necesserily better.

There is the matter of ground pressure, and if you increase the tyre width, you better spread the weight, so you don't sink into soft ground so easily, but at the same time, you don't get the same contact pressure between tyre and surface; transmitting drive, finding ;traction' wider tyre with less ground pressure can actually have LESS 'traction' than a narrow tyre with more pushing it into the surface, the narrower tyre can have more 'bite'.

Another evolutionary avenue that has not favoured the cast wheel.

We then get to the matter of strength, and complience, and modern cast wheels are stronger and more durable and less prone to fatigue fracture or cracking under load.

But, off road, wheels will be loaded a lot more heavily and frequently in 'shock' pounding over rough terrain and bumps and smashing down off jumps.

Whats reached a level of 'acceptable' strength and durability in the less harsh enviroment of road racing or road riding, is still questionable under the loading conditions of hard sustained off-road use.

And the wire laced spoked wheel is STILL incredibly light for the strength it has.

Another trend in road and road race bike evolution; as they have got more powerful, they have also got heavier. OK, they have got heavier, then got lighter again, BUT. ho-hum....

Another very significant influence on handling is the unsprung mass, or more significantly the ratio of sprung to unsprung mass.

Basically, the lighter the wheel and anything else that moves in teh suspension system when a wheel strikes a bump, the easier time the suspension has, and the more easily it can absorb that bump force. Heavier the bike over the top of that moving 'unsprung' mass, the less inclined the body of the vehicle is to deflect in response to suspension movement, and so smore of the bump force is directed into deflecting suspension, rather than motorcycle and rider.

So, lighter wheels are better... road bike or dirt.

But dirt bikes have been getting lighter!

Hmm.... 'light' cast alloy wheels would be even more of an advantage then..... well, YES... if they were.

On a big road or road race bike, the added mass of the machine can 'tolerate' a higher weight wheel, so if you need to engineer it up to a strength, you can to some degree get away with it being heavier.

On a dirt bike, though, many of them are lighter than a CG125, and the 'problem' is that a cast wheel would not be significantly lighter than an alloy rimmed wire spoke wheel, and while it may have a higher load carrying 'strength' on such a light bike, that's no real advantage, whats needed is that fatigiue and shock strength... and casting the wheel lighter, would reduce the strength below that actually needed.

So the wire-spoke wheels construction is a very apropriate 'technology' and provides a very good compromise of ultimate strength, ductile strength, fatigue strength and complience, for limited weight.

Especially on a machine who'se weight, and the radial loadings or torque from brakes or engine, are well within what the wheel can cope with.

Its no single 'advantage', its the overall balence of properties and application of 'appropriate' technology.

And its subject to evolution....... We are forever Re-Inventing 'The Wheel'

I believe that there have been some interesting experiments using high tensile nylon in tension in place of wire spokes in a laced wheel, and some interesting work on nono-fibre technology and super-filliment steel.... which I am still perplexed by, but I believe is a flexible filliment 'textile' like carbon fibre, but unlike C-F which is strong in compression, is amazingly strong in tension, for making 'pre-stressed' tension structures.

I also recall a 'cantilever' carbon fibre wheel, being demonstrated, which was rather like a honda Com-star with plates arranged around a hub, conecting to a seperate rim, only carbon is strong in compression, so to put the rim into tension, like a laced wire wheel, it used little see-saw rockers that when the rim was attached tensioned the rim, putting the spokes in compression.... not sure what happened to that...... must have been a great success!

And that's future tech; even since the common adoption of the cast wheel for road-bikes, the wire laced wheel has been evolving.

Tubless tyre technology, required new, sealed rim-forms, and that has lead to some novel variation on the wire spoke wheel.

Just a couple, the 'straight' spoke, using a ball ended spoke with no 'kneck' to loop through a hub flange, instead hooked into a slotted rim. The upside down spoke, that puts the hook end through a flange on the rim, and the nipple through a flange on the hub.

Probably one of the more useful and less aknowledged 'advances' in wire spoke technology has been the 'forged' spoke, where the hook end is formed from forging the spoke as a single compinent, rather than taking stock wire, bending to shape, peening the end to form the button, and then threading.

There's also been some interesting variations in spoking arrangements tried and developed.

Principle of 'cross-spoking' has been experimented with, and rather then just crossing spokes in pairs on one side of the wheel, triangulation achieved in two dimensions, crossing spokes in pairs from side to side. Likewise the practice of 'straight-spoking' NOT crossing the spokes, but keeping them radial from the hub, or even straight spoking on one side, but cross-spoking side to side.....

And then multi-flanging..... conventional hub, you have two flanges on the hub, one set of spokes radiating to the rim from either side.... but, on a wide hub, cast four flanges, and you can lace to a wide rim in any number of complex ways!

And interesting thought; the wire laced wheel is still the accepted norm on dirt-bikes, as the cast alloy wheel is the accepted norm on road bikes.... yet almost NO dirt bikes use cast or composite wheels, yet a large number of road bikes DO use spoked wheels.....

Yes, a lot of them use spoked wheels for pure asthetic reasons; the classic look, or the 'custom' style.... but no reason that a little CG should have one type of wheel over another other than cost or ease of manufacture.

And so back to 'apropriate' technology; cast wheel has become the accepted norm over the last thirty years, as the performance of road bikes has increased and as a cost reduction and manufacturing easement as the technology has filtered down.

The Carbon-Fibre wheel, has been around ALMOST as long, and has NOT recieved any significant wide-spread adoption, despite much effort.

Technology has been developed and evolved and is now a lot more reliable and accessible than it was twenty years ago; same as cast wheels were thirty years ago.... but it has not made it to the high street.

Which suggests that we are at a technological plateau; where the encumbent technology has been refined to a level of 'usefulness' that is apropriate to the needs it fullfils, and it would take another spurt of development, or shift in market demands, that left current wheel technology deficient for needs, to see alternatives promoted in any way.

Waiting such a trigger, the technology of the wire laced wheel, and the developments in its technology over the last twenty five years?

Could we see a ressurgence in its adoption? Could the stimulus that promotes change see the focus of atension and wide-spread adoption shift BACK to a modern wire laced wheel?

It is a very elegant,and incredibly efficient bit of engineering technology, and its day is far from done, I think.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[U_W v2.0]

and that post took you how long?
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BCF's biggest cunt list: Cansa, Pits, Rob

[Vracktal]

[trevor saxe-coburg-gotha]

[Frost]

wow.....
even by mikes standards
THAT was a very long post
of which i read
almost none of BECAUSE despite the information....
it may contain...... the formatting still BUGS the hell out of me

[Fisty]

[Timmeh]

epic post was epic
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GSXR400 x2 | '94 RVF400 | '93 TZR125 4DL (again)
20:22:30 BLUEX5: i would love to be forced to undergo a**l plugging with different sizes
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