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treeno
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 Posted: 01:22 - 02 Jan 2013  Post subject: Crashing |
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Evening all. I was just wondering (being a new biker) what the main causes of serious injuries and deaths while biking are. By that I mean is it car impacts? Being flung from the bike? Hitting stationary objects like lamp posts or trees? After looking through some crash threads including bEN's thread where he came off at a roundabout and almost got killed by a lamppost, it worries me just how easy it is to get yourself killed biking.
Luckily in my first few weeks biking I have had no incidents or close calls, partly I hope because I have previously cycled in London for several years and after that I know what to look out for. It does surprise me that after several years cycling and a few weeks on a motorbike that I have never come across a situation where I have not been in control of my own fate due to another driver. The closest I have come to an off is looking in my mirror for a second and then looking up and suddenly that car is much closer than it was.
It seems to me like a large amount of accidents while motorcycling come from people coming off around a corner. That's one of the things as a new rider that I am very nervous about. I don't actually know the limit of cornering on my bike as I have never come off, but I tend to take corners very cautiously and slower than most. Anyway, any opinions on the things I have discussed would be welcome!  |
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Andrew_
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TheSmiler
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| Posted: 01:33 - 02 Jan 2013 Post subject: |
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Don't really care to think about it anymore, however with the new rider I'd say that most crashes or offs are down to either one of these they are not in any order;
1) Rider not knowing or used to the machine they are riding
2) Over confidence in their riding
3) Poor clutch control
4) Not enough experience with riding (if your brakes lock what do you do)
5) Going too fast for the conditions/experience
Although there are differences between having a crash and having an off personally I'd class an off as simple damage (indicator/headlight) potentially whilst on a diesel patch on a roundabout. Crashes on the other hand would be serious damage to the bike (can't ride it away from the location) this would mainly be involving vehicles/potholes/kerb/diesel or oil.
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treeno
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Benno
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Posted: 01:40 - 02 Jan 2013  Post subject: |
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I think OP wants some statistics rather than abstractions, so I did a very quick google search and I'll regurgitate some stats I found here:
| Quote: | 48% of crashes between motorcycles and cars were the result of the car driver failing to look properly. |
| Quote: |
Failing to look properly was the most frequent cause of crashes for all vehicles except motorcycles. Motorcyclists were most likely to crash through ‘loss of control’ and also most likely to be the victim of someone else failing to look. |
A point to note on this one - the actions of another vehicle can and frequently do in 'crash situations' cause motorcyclists to "lose control". A car in front of you braking suddenly can cause you to lock up your brakes and take a fall. So don't interpret this as people coming off on corners all the time.
| Quote: | A study (Clarke et al 2004) has indicated that there are 2 clear peaks in casualty age (21-25 & 31-35) and that there are 3 basic discernable motorcycle crash types:
- Right of way violation accidents (38% of cases)
- Loss of control at bends at speed (11% plus of cases)
- Overtaking/filtering accidents (15% of cases)
Clarke et al found that road users other than the injured motorcyclists are usually the cause of crashes and therefore road safety initiatives should be targeted at those other road users in addition to bikers. |
| Quote: | Fatal accidents often involve the motorcycle running off the road (41% of fatalities) |
So you can see coming off on corners only accounts for around 11% of crashes.
| Quote: | As solo accidents without collision with another vehicle account for only a small proportion of total accidents, it appears that impairment has a much more deadly effect on motorcyclists than simply rider fault. |
| Quote: | Recent European research reveals that nearly 70% of motorcycle accidents involved a car, lorry or bus and that approximately 55% of accidents occur at junctions |
| Quote: | Factors that contribute to motorcycle accidents are:
- the speeds that they can reach
- their acceleration rate (high power to weight ratio)
- their relative lack of stability (single track) when compared to 4 wheeled vehicles; and
- their conspicuity. |
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Last edited by Benno on 01:43 - 02 Jan 2013; edited 2 times in total |
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treeno
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Shaft
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Posted: 01:46 - 02 Jan 2013  Post subject: |
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What hurts the most isn't the speed you're going, it's the speed you stop.
As can be seen in MotoGP, you can slide and roll for many metres after an off at 150mph, suffering nothing more than few grazes.
On the other hand, do a youtube search for Lee Richardson fatal accident; he was doing maybe 50-60mph and hit an air fence, with a solid backing.
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Benno
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treeno
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| Posted: 01:54 - 02 Jan 2013 Post subject: |
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| Shaft wrote: | What hurts the most isn't the speed you're going, it's the speed you stop.
As can be seen in MotoGP, you can slide and roll for many metres after an off at 150mph, suffering nothing more than few grazes.
On the other hand, do a youtube search for Lee Richardson fatal accident; he was doing maybe 50-60mph and hit an air fence, with a solid backing. |
Wow, that video is scary mate. Didn't even look that awful (although the camera is quite far away), it didn't look like it was head on or anything.
| Benno wrote: | | treeno wrote: | I just read that same page Benno. What do you make of the theory in my last post? About how cases of a car driver failing to look could be avoided? |
Well in regards to your statement that a lot of those incidents can be avoided, yes indeed they can - by the car driver, and less so by the rider, because if you are going at speed (note: not speeding) then you may not be able to stop in time if they pull out on you. Moving into the middle of the road may not prevent a collision and may not be possible either.
I do the same as you do, I slow down and move to the middle of the road. Sometimes I beep the horn, sometimes I switch the headlight on to full beam (and KEEP it on until you are past, otherwise they will interpret a flash as "go on mate, pull out, go ahead and kill me"). |
I understand that, my thinking is purely that slowing down and changing position will make it much more likely that you will live in the event that a car pulls out. I always tend to go at a speed that would allow me to stop or avoid if they pulled out (obviously not if they pull out into the side of you). It just strikes me that there are always going to be dick head car drivers that don't look, so we might as well do the best we can. I would rather take 5 minutes extra for every commute because I slowed down, and get there in one piece.
Yeah, those sound like good tactics. |
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TheSmiler
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Posted: 02:10 - 02 Jan 2013  Post subject: |
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Before I post this, know that if you are really worried about crashing make sure you have some good gear on you are not going to avoid crashing. All people crash or come off at one point you can only minimize the chance of coming off.
| treeno wrote: | Yeah, but what is the most common cause? Would you say that the majority of serious injuries or deaths are caused by rider error or because of another road user?
Having seen a lot of crash threads and videos it also seems to me that crashes where another road user is supposedly at fault (e.g. a car pulling out into the path of a rider) could actually have been avoided by the rider. How do you all react when you see a car waiting to pull out at a junction? I almost always slow down considerably and if possible change lane or at least move over to the centre of the road. I have seen a lot of videos where in the exact same situation the biker carries on as if the car were not there, only to get pulled out on and put it down to the driver. Obviously the car driver is a fucking idiot, all I am trying to say is that a lot of those incidents could be avoided from what I have seen. |
Couldn't say what the serious accidents are caused without the stats to back up my points I'm just basing it on what I've seen/read and experienced. Also yes a lot of the time a rider could avoid a collision with a car pulling out sometimes its the heat of the moment kind of thing and it just happens. However I've explained further down but I'll add here furthermore if a car is coming to a junction now when I'm riding I slow down slightly prep the brakes and move over slightly whilst giving them the evil stare.
Personally I used to wear Hi Viz as I thought it helped on the road making other drivers aware that I was about however I've realized that it doesn't matter anymore in my opinion. Due to the amount of people that wear hi viz during the daily life for careers it is no longer seen that HI Viz equals Biker. To reduce the amount of collisions by car drivers the only thing I can think of adding is something specifically for bikers or motorcyclists. Something unique and out of the ordinary for them to spot you.
It's laughable but the advert with the people riding about with massive neon signs above people something like that I believe would actually work. But who would want one of them hanging above them.
| treeno wrote: | EDIT: Can you expand on that Smiler? When you say not knowing the machine, what incidents does that usually lead to? The same for poor clutch control? Also, what DO you do if the wheels lock under braking? |
People are really going to laugh at me giving advice with all the offs I've had but I'll try to explain a bit more on the points I raised.
1) Rider not knowing or used to the machine they are riding
Problems here that could arise happens with a lot of people I'd say that are new to bikes they get a bike after CBT or after passing DAS. Now they have the bike but they are not used to where the power range is, or the brakes. They will also not be used to the weight and how it reacts in corners.
2) Over confidence in their riding
This is a simple one and relates to all the others depends on the rider but you will get some people that are over confident and will think they are the bees knees. Going into corners full throttle when they have been on the bike for a day, trying to lean the bike over to get knee down. Confidence is great on a bike and it will help you out in so many ways with riding. However you have still got to be cautious and weary of other road users. If you see a car coming to a junction slow down and move over on the road just you riding along might not spark in their mind you move slightly to the side they notice the movement and are more cautious.
3) Poor clutch control
Mainly happens when people are waiting at traffic lights holding the clutch in and in gear they can release it too early or all at once and if you have the throttle on you could cause a nasty accident.
4) Not enough experience with riding (if your brakes lock what do you do)
Not enough experience again is linked to the others if you are an all weather rider and ride in the rain then you will get used to how the road is, you will notice other vehicles are less likely to notice you as well as you will have to use brakes more carefully. Instead of roaring down a road and expecting everyone to have seen you, you slow down slightly you move over. Giving hints to let the drivers know you are there, be prepared to stop.
Regarding brakes locking if you feel the brakes are locked or about to lock, release the pressure and then pump it to slow yourself down (well that is what I'd do anyway)
5) Going too fast for the conditions/experience
This is simple like the others depending on the conditions you have to get used to the riding, notice that if it had been raining and now the sun is out and dried the roads they are going to be slick. OR when the sun has been out all the time and you get the first rain in ages watch yourself as they can easily be slippery. When approaching roundabouts especially in the wet be prepared that their might be oil or diesel on them so go carefully. IF you think you are going too fast slow down a bit you can always regain the speed easier and safer than you can loosing it going into a corner too fast. In the countryside beware that you might not see vehicles hiding around the corner so take more care (killers thread Is great for corner observation been deleted I think).
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Benno
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| Posted: 03:01 - 02 Jan 2013 Post subject: |
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| treeno wrote: | Thanks for that, really useful. Even though I'm only riding a CG125, I do wear all of the gear all of the time. I have Spada Tornado jacket and trousers (they even match the bike haha) and I wear them no matter what the journey. Not only does it make me feel safer but also it's more comfortable and keeps me warm and dry. Also got Hurricane boots and Storm gloves. I may look like an idiot in full gear on a 125 with L plates but I'd rather look like a dick and not get hurt.
The gear does have all that high-vis lining everywhere that reflects light, so hopefully that makes me more visible. Also I am glad that I am learning to ride in the winter, hopefully should make me much safer when it comes to summer.
As for the clutch control, if I let the clutch out on my CG it just stalls, so I know I will have to take a lot of care when I move up to a bigger bike. Thanks for all the tips. How many times have you been off? |
If you want trousers that you can wear casually as well as being safety gear then buy some kevlar jeans, you can get cheap pairs on amazon (or ebay). Currently they're the only leg protection I've got.
I reckon overconfidence is the most dangerous thing smiler talked about there. Just ride sensibly and safely and chances of an accident are waayyyy less. Had a few near misses recently because of more aggressive riding so toned it back a bit, though fortunately only ever had one off, that was on my old 125, and I was going around a corner in a tesco car park at about 15mph! Gear still helped prevent my elbow from being more bruised though 
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andy_uk
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| Posted: 06:59 - 02 Jan 2013 Post subject: |
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| treeno wrote: | I may look like an idiot in full gear on a 125 with L plates but I'd rather look like a dick and not get hurt.
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In who's opinion would you look like an idiot?
Another biker's? - No, probably not.
Your family's? - again, probably not.
Someone who doesn't know the first thing about bikes? - possibly.
I know who's opinion(s) I'd care about and it sure ain't the last one! 
The only time I've not worn full gear was in the first few days of riding when I didn't yet have all the gear. Since then, even just nipping to my lockup (10 min ride) involves jacket, trousers, gloves & boots (and helmet obviously!).
As for hi-viz... It's a bit like Marmite  some like it, some don't. I have a waistcoat one (complete with BCF logo ) that's always on my jacket and I just forget it's there. If it helps me be seen once then it's done its job and worth every penny...
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TheSmiler
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| Posted: 12:56 - 02 Jan 2013 Post subject: |
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| treeno wrote: | As for the clutch control, if I let the clutch out on my CG it just stalls, so I know I will have to take a lot of care when I move up to a bigger bike. Thanks for all the tips. How many times have you been off? |
Nice to hear you are wearing the gear, however remember the gear is only there for when you come off if you have the funds get a few extra lessons, they will always help and can improve your riding straight away. Also wearing gear does not mean you are in a plastic bubble and won't get hurt there are people on here that have worn gear and still got serious injuries, it just minimizes the amount of damage you get.
My off list not proud of it however it happened;
*Too fast on CBT bike on car park that was fun (for the lark of it, target fixation, too fast)
*CBT bike going into neutral on corner (inexperience)
*Failed emergency stop (Before buying bike) (wasn't expecting not concentrating)
*Crash via bus; went into a side road and bus came along it was diverted, I went down on the corner didn't hit it (not concentrating wasn't expecting)
*Crash via bottle (target fixation)
*Crash via van he stopped on a roundabout (not paying attention/wasn't expecting)
*Robertos Vid (too fast, not concentrating, target fixation)
*Crash via car, car was stopped on corner (too fast into corner)
*Crash via diesel roundabout (car braked in front of me, wasn't concentrating on roundabout hit the patch grabbed front and slid on diesel patch)
*Crash via oil roundabout (too fast maybe, no idea to be honest)
All them were my offs and all were in my first year of being on the road, none resulted in serious damage and most were slow speed. Now I've worn my gear all the time I personally wear generic black leather jacket and trousers on my CG125. May look stupid to other people but I find it more comfortable than textiles.
My second year started in October and so far nothing which is the way I intend to keep it (last one was the 25th September the oil.
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yaigi
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| Posted: 14:07 - 02 Jan 2013 Post subject: |
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| Shaft wrote: | What hurts the most isn't the speed you're going, it's the speed you stop.
As can be seen in MotoGP, you can slide and roll for many metres after an off at 150mph, suffering nothing more than few grazes.
On the other hand, do a youtube search for Lee Richardson fatal accident; he was doing maybe 50-60mph and hit an air fence, with a solid backing. |
+1 to this - it's similar to that saying, it's not the fall that'll kill you, it's the ground
I think a lot of new rider accidents where another vehicle isn't invloved will be caused by people not knowing what to do should they approach a corner too fast or lose the back end. I fell off around a roundabout in my first few weeks of riding cos I decided half way round that it was too fast in the wet, and pulled my front brake to slow down   Luckily I wasn't ACTUALLY going that fast and escaped with nothing but bruises and a hurt ego.
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 14:09 - 02 Jan 2013 Post subject: Re: Crashing |
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| treeno wrote: | Evening all. I was just wondering (being a new biker) what the main causes of serious injuries and deaths while biking are. |
BEING STUPID!
Here, have a look at these:-
Motorcycling is DANGEROUS! Will I REALLY kill myself?
A look at motorcycle safety, for a newby. Putting the 'risks' in context. Riding a motorcycle is dangerouse, yes, but so is putting up a shelf, mowing the lawn or crossing the road. It's certainly one of the more dangerouse ways to travel, BUT? Its not SO dangerouse as to garantee to kill you!
the INVISIBLE biker!
Little look at SMIDSY accidents, and how its not becouse car drivers dont look, its that they dont look for BIKES. They look for CAR or they look for NO-CAR and conditrioning of experience, where bikes are such a tiny % of road traffic population, experience says NO-CAR is a SPACE they can drive into.... BIKE is NO-CAR... to they see us, but brain over-writes what they see, with 'SPACE' in thier preception.
Knowing how accidents occur, is teh start of avoiding them. And source of teh advice, "Treat Every-One like they are out to kill you!"
And there is an AWFUL lot we can do to keep ourselves 'Safer' on the UK roads, than stats suggest, and it STARTS with not being Stupid, and not being lazy and not taking anything for granted.
Going through the reported 'spills' on here and elsewhere; an awful lot of them, there may not be 'Rider Blame' accident was caused by some-one elses error, but even so, SO many of them the rider could have don SO much more to avoid the incident in the first place.
EG: you see a car sitting in a T-Junction in a side road off road you are riding down, on your left. HAZARD... you percieve it..... you know its there, you know that car could SMIDSY you.
What do you do? You have priority, so you carry on riding and BANG pulls out on you.... you exchange insurance details, go to teh doctors and biotch about it, and how these 'idiots' dont look for us.
BUT, you could, as easily, slow down, move to the right, prepare to stop.......
NOW with the cat like reflexes of self preservation... "OH FUCK! - That was close" as car pulls out, you have more space infront of where his bumper is going to be, and you haul up in a super-e-stop ... "Bludy IDIOT... YOUSE YOUR EYES" you yell and ride off......
OR....
You slow, check following traffic; try and make eye contact... and pull to a halt just before the junction, and then using arm gestures not headlamp.... you usher the car to pull out of the junction..... in a gentlemanly fasion.....
Half way accross the road... the car driver takes a second glance and SUDDENLY realises you are there...... and gives you an embarressed wave of thanks.......
You ride on, delayed by probably 15 seconds...... which is a LOT less than the time it takes to fill in an insurance form.......
So starts with STUPIDITY..... if we dont think.... we crash. If we think..... we survive better, but f we think about things 'better'... we survive well! So the next big influence is ATTITUDE. to actually thing about the right stuff and think about them the right way.
Riding a motorbike is all about balence and control. Starts with SELF control, and not letting fear or thrill rule our reason. And balencing priorities and interests as well as forces and machine controls!
Bottom line is it comes down to common bludy sense.... which is so uncommon, that you dont have to have VERY much, to make a very BIG difference.
Keep your wits about you, and in all possibility you can have a very long riding career with very few painful experiences.
Let fears rule your reason, then you are as likely to make good use of all the 'safety wear' you buy thinking it makes you safe and learn, the hard way, CRASHING HURTS regardless, as you are being a devil may care numpty riding every where with the throttle pinned 'having a laugh'.... back to balence.....
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P.
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| Posted: 14:09 - 02 Jan 2013 Post subject: |
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Crashing is part and parcel of the bike life. It can happen. If it does, brush yourself off |
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Alpha-9
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| Posted: 14:24 - 02 Jan 2013 Post subject: |
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| TheSmiler wrote: | | treeno wrote: | As for the clutch control, if I let the clutch out on my CG it just stalls, so I know I will have to take a lot of care when I move up to a bigger bike. Thanks for all the tips. How many times have you been off? |
Nice to hear you are wearing the gear, however remember the gear is only there for when you come off if you have the funds get a few extra lessons, they will always help and can improve your riding straight away. Also wearing gear does not mean you are in a plastic bubble and won't get hurt there are people on here that have worn gear and still got serious injuries, it just minimizes the amount of damage you get.
My off list not proud of it however it happened;
*Too fast on CBT bike on car park that was fun (for the lark of it, target fixation, too fast)
*CBT bike going into neutral on corner (inexperience)
*Failed emergency stop (Before buying bike) (wasn't expecting not concentrating)
*Crash via bus; went into a side road and bus came along it was diverted, I went down on the corner didn't hit it (not concentrating wasn't expecting)
*Crash via bottle (target fixation)
*Crash via van he stopped on a roundabout (not paying attention/wasn't expecting)
*Robertos Vid (too fast, not concentrating, target fixation)
*Crash via car, car was stopped on corner (too fast into corner)
*Crash via diesel roundabout (car braked in front of me, wasn't concentrating on roundabout hit the patch grabbed front and slid on diesel patch)
*Crash via oil roundabout (too fast maybe, no idea to be honest)
All them were my offs and all were in my first year of being on the road, none resulted in serious damage and most were slow speed. Now I've worn my gear all the time I personally wear generic black leather jacket and trousers on my CG125. May look stupid to other people but I find it more comfortable than textiles.
My second year started in October and so far nothing which is the way I intend to keep it (last one was the 25th September the oil. |
Okay my fail confession time
1 - Came off going slowly round a roundabout, no idea what or why, assumed diesel or something
2 - RTC, rider hit third party, poor visibibility, pissing it down with a shit helmet that fogged a lot, didn't give way and hit a car very hard, bent my bikes frame on it  dumbbb
3 - Kid jumped out a car in front of me and I panic braked leaving my bike sliding down the road, tripping the kid up, mashed the ignition and broke the steering lock somehow. Probably too quick for the conditions, was a wet clear lane while the lane next to me was backed up, is a school further up the road so should have been prepared really!
4 - BCF BBQ few days later, binning it on grass trying to show off powersliding, I cannot ride on bogs! bike also went over about 4 times this night...
5 - RTC third party pulled out a junction as I was passing, braked perfectly as hard as I could without locking up but it wasn't enough! Bent forks and an insurance claim 
All since last January! New years resolution - Don't fucking crash!
No injuries so far thankfully after seeing people's crashes on here... I've hurt my wrist more finger banging!
lol, fingerbanging is hilarious to say
____________________
Fzr-600 1999 |
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Ingah
World Chat Champion
Joined: 10 Apr 2009
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Alpha-9
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 13 years, 39 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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