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Where does electricity come from.....

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smegballs
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PostPosted: 22:08 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Where does electricity come from..... Reply with quote

on an aircraft?

Obviously passenger jets need electricity, where does it come from? Alternators on the jet engines themselves? Stand-alone electrical generator system? Do they have batteries in for emergency control in case of power failure?

Random thought I had earlier this evening.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 22:12 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Snorty
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PostPosted: 22:12 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well don't forget they have to get those engines started too - I have also wondered this - how big would the battery be?
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 22:13 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same as a car or bike im guessing
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Bendy
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PostPosted: 22:14 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on the size of the aircraft.

Little ones are just a boggo alternator / battery setup. Lose the engine, your electrics will keep working as long as the battery does.

An airliner has a generator on each engine, an auxiliary power unit, and needs ground power when the engines aren't running. Multiple redundancy (and a hell of a lot of electrical demands)
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 22:19 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seen those exhaust pipes that stick out the back of airliners, under the tail? That's for the generator that runs when the plane is on the ground.
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Frost
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PostPosted: 22:19 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Boeing 787's are currently grounded due to a series of battery fires. So it's a pretty safe bet that something was charging them during flight.
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JonB
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PostPosted: 22:25 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like Boeing borrowed Red Bull F1's KERS technology when designing their planes.
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miles
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

a 063 battery Laughing
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Raffles
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PostPosted: 22:33 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

angryjonny wrote:
Seen those exhaust pipes that stick out the back of airliners, under the tail? That's for the generator that runs when the plane is on the ground.

APU's:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_power_unit
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EazyDuz
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PostPosted: 22:33 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raffles wrote:
angryjonny wrote:
Seen those exhaust pipes that stick out the back of airliners, under the tail? That's for the generator that runs when the plane is on the ground.

APU's

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/Apu.png

Edit: Kradmelder, that's your cue. I haven't seen any blatant racism on here since lunch time.
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Rowey
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PostPosted: 23:15 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

A/C have generators that are power through an accessory gear box on each engine. One of these can often provide enough power for flight. However if one generator fails, or an engine for that matter, logic will shed power to unessential systems such as in-flight entertainment, toilets, galleys and lighting so hydraulics and flight computers get enough juice.

If you loose both engines, in almost every passenger airline there will be an Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) that is a small jet engine (often helicopter engines) that provides no thrust. They sit in the tail of the aircraft. It'll run an electrical generator enough to power the whole aircraft, and provide Pneumatics that can pressurise the aircraft and run hydraulic pumps.

If that wont start or is inop there are back up batteries that can run essential only systems for up to 30mins.

In the a worst case scenario some air craft have a RAT. Ram Air turbines are little propellers that drop from the underneath of the aircraft. They're attached to hydraulics pumps (or sometimes electrical generators) which can power flights controls and run a hydraulics electrical generator.

When the shit has truly hit the fan, some aircraft have cable operated limited flying controls, free falling landing gear and emergency brakes.

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drzsta
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PostPosted: 23:21 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rowey wrote:
A/C have generators that are power through an accessory gear box on each engine. One of these can often provide enough power for flight. However if one generator fails, or an engine for that matter, logic will shed power to unessential systems such as in-flight entertainment, toilets, galleys and lighting so hydraulics and flight computers get enough juice.

If you loose both engines, in almost every passenger airline there will be an Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) that is a small jet engine (often helicopter engines) that provides no thrust. They sit in the tail of the aircraft. It'll run an electrical generator enough to power the whole aircraft, and provide Pneumatics that can pressurise the aircraft and run hydraulic pumps.

If that wont start or is inop there are back up batteries that can run essential only systems for up to 30mins.

In the a worst case scenario some air craft have a RAT. Ram Air turbines are little propellers that drop from the underneath of the aircraft. They're attached to hydraulics pumps (or sometimes electrical generators) which can power flights controls and run a hydraulics electrical generator.

When the shit has truly hit the fan, some aircraft have cable operated limited flying controls, free falling landing gear and emergency brakes.

Guess what my job is...



Luggage attendant Cool
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Rowey
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PostPosted: 23:22 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

CHR15 wrote:
if you sit by the windows, you'll notice before they fire up the engines, they plug in a very big jump starter cable to give the massive ca needed to fire spin the starters.


Most engines are started by Pneumatics from the APU. Even the little A320 family are. If the APU is inop they'll use an APU in a truck and connect it to the aircraft pneumatics with about 10" dia tubing.

The big cables they plug into the front is just ground power so they can switch off the engines/APU on ground.

Only small business jets that don't have room for an APU have electric starters.

drzsta wrote:
Rowey wrote:

Guess what my job is...



Luggage attendant Cool


Shit son.

Engineer.
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cimbian
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PostPosted: 23:36 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

And there was me thinking they got their electricity from flying through clouds like lightning does! Wink
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 23:39 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rowey wrote:
Most engines are started by Pneumatics from the APU. Even the little A320 family are. If the APU is inop they'll use an APU in a truck and connect it to the aircraft pneumatics with about 10" dia tubing.

If (like me) you've spent years of your life flying weekly out of London City on Fokker 50s you'll have seen that some planes still considered "passenger aircraft" (despite the fact that when half-full they have to sit everyone at the back so they can get the nose up) are jump-started (on a good day) off something that resembles a generator you'd normally find running a set of temporary traffic lights or (on a bad day) the first officer's Vauxhall Meriva.
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Rowey
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PostPosted: 23:40 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

CHR15 wrote:
interesting.

i wouldnt have thought they would be that hefty for just running aux things.


Ground power is 115Vac 400Hz.

An A320 will sit happy on one connector. A330's and B777's are safer with two. A380's need four.

On ground everything is powered. All systems, air condition to cool the avionics, lighting. The thing that pulls power is hydraulics. Operating any flight controls or opening cargo doors spins up the hydraulics which have a very high start up load.
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Groove
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PostPosted: 23:50 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rowey wrote:

In the a worst case scenario some air craft have a RAT


To combat rats on aeroplanes i think you need some snakes.



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Rowey
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PostPosted: 23:51 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

angryjonny wrote:
Rowey wrote:
Most engines are started by Pneumatics from the APU. Even the little A320 family are. If the APU is inop they'll use an APU in a truck and connect it to the aircraft pneumatics with about 10" dia tubing.

If (like me) you've spent years of your life flying weekly out of London City on Fokker 50s you'll have seen that some planes still considered "passenger aircraft" (despite the fact that when half-full they have to sit everyone at the back so they can get the nose up) are jump-started (on a good day) off something that resembles a generator you'd normally find running a set of temporary traffic lights or (on a bad day) the first officer's Vauxhall Meriva.


Haha, that is brilliant. I haven't really worked on anything smaller than A320's. Luckily never flown on a Fokker 50 either.

That mobile generator is a mobile ground power unit. Big diesel things. They're used to power the whole lot. The systems before start, the fuel booster pumps and the starter motor.
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 23:59 - 31 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rowey wrote:
Luckily never flown on a Fokker 50 either.

I swear, pilots do 20 years in 747s and then finally graduate onto Fokker 50s. You can feel them fighting the thing down, particularly at City when they have to fly over Canary Wharf and then fall out of the sky sideways in ludicrous crosswinds before landing the thing on a runway surrounded on three sides by water when you know, as a passenger, it's just cables and levers connecting their controls to the flappy bits on the wings and the tail.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 05:04 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

snorty wrote:
Well don't forget they have to get those engines started too - I have also wondered this - how big would the battery be?


To save the weight of batteries they are started by way of a generator on the tarmac. Or some cnut throws the propeller over after they shout 'CONTACT'.
They use three of those AAA rechargables.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 08:55 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

angryjonny wrote:
Rowey wrote:
Luckily never flown on a Fokker 50 either.

I swear, pilots do 20 years in 747s and then finally graduate onto Fokker 50s. You can feel them fighting the thing down, particularly at City when they have to fly over Canary Wharf and then fall out of the sky sideways in ludicrous crosswinds before landing the thing on a runway surrounded on three sides by water when you know, as a passenger, it's just cables and levers connecting their controls to the flappy bits on the wings and the tail.

Having worked on the Deseign & development & been responsible for flight qualification of electronic avionics.... significantly the fly-by wire aur-bus....
I'd take GREAT comfort in them there levers, wire and bits of string!
I flew over Afghanistan on an Il once..... It was a little scary, especially given former soviet standards of maintenence..... but I had to keep reminding myself that the Russian Engineers responsible for making that thing flight worthy, weren't on mile-stone bonus'... Rolling Eyes
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 10:30 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Having worked on the Deseign & development & been responsible for flight qualification of electronic avionics.... significantly the fly-by wire aur-bus....
I'd take GREAT comfort in them there levers, wire and bits of string!
I flew over Afghanistan on an Il once..... It was a little scary, especially given former soviet standards of maintenence..... but I had to keep reminding myself that the Russian Engineers responsible for making that thing flight worthy, weren't on mile-stone bonus'... Rolling Eyes


Aye them auld Farleys Ruskerinos have a knack for designing their shit Bass Ackwards wing tips at the rear, engines on the roof etc. Just so they were not the same as the Capitalist Pig Dog's aesthetic stuff. (Reliable as a Moskovtch too) Smile
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 19:50 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walloper wrote:
Teflon-Mike wrote:
Having worked on the Deseign & development & been responsible for flight qualification of electronic avionics.... significantly the fly-by wire air-bus....
I'd take GREAT comfort in them there levers, wire and bits of string!
I flew over Afghanistan on an Il once..... It was a little scary, especially given former soviet standards of maintenence..... but I had to keep reminding myself that the Russian Engineers responsible for making that thing flight worthy, weren't on mile-stone bonus'... Rolling Eyes


Aye them auld Farleys Ruskerinos have a knack for designing their shit Bass Ackwards wing tips at the rear, engines on the roof etc. Just so they were not the same as the Capitalist Pig Dog's aesthetic stuff. (Reliable as a Moskovtch too) Smile


Around 1980, they were redeveloping Bikenhill air-strip..... M42 was under construction, NEC was being thrown up, and having found a railway line in the middle, they build a brand new railway station on it, and decided that this little air-strip ought to be expanded a bit, and renamed 'Birmingham International Air-port'.....

Anyway, during all the excitement, they found that the place had a chief air-traffic controller, by the name of David Gunson.... and Jasper carrot, heard him give an after dinner speech, and decided he HAD to get him on tape and release it as one of his comedy records.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8VMjMQDCR8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ri0uo12No4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BpIThbOADg

One of my Uncle's apparently was at one of these do's and brought back one of the records, and it has since entered family and brummie 'lore'....

Gunson on Soviet Air-Traffic Control: "In the West we have controlled air-space and uncontrolled air-space; Soviet system is a little different; in the soviet system, you get three things; a compass bearing, an altitude and a speed....... deviate from any of these three and you are joined on each wing by two Mig 21's..... and you LAND at the nearest available air-port... passengers continue by coach......and the crew are never seen again...... great system in many ways... they don't get repetitive faults......"

Capitalist system; I am sat in a project meeting panic, who can we blame, targeting session.... with an irate project manager Neurotic Crisis Mis-Manager... having a wibble....... Chief design engineer is sat smugly, concluding a defense of his teams design with the comment "You see, all told we have, after five years achieved the impossible", the retort, "Yes, Steve, but it DOESN'T WORK!" appears to be a concept that aludes him, or is a minor inconvenience that can be shifted on with a shrug. Wibble: "But we have a $23M mile-stone payement hanging on this; if we dont deliver, we dont get paid!... so they don't work.... does this HAVE to mean we cant deliver?"

Bendy wrote:
An airliner has a generator on each engine, an auxiliary power unit, and needs ground power when the engines aren't running. Multiple redundancy (and a hell of a lot of electrical demands)


There used to be a heck of a lot of 'redundancy' in aircraft electronics; why have one engine controller, if it can fail.... fit four, if one breaks you have three spares on hand!

Trouble was that the way the electronics industry has evolved; the multiple back-up safe-guard aproach is rather flawed by the fact that any fault that is likely to dead-out the first bit of equipment, is also likely to dead-out the back-ups!

It was very good in the days when the most likely cause of failure were 'Random Isolated Faults'; manufacturing defects or individual component failures; but as the electronics industry has got ever so much more advanced, the repeatability of automated assembly, and the variation in manufactured components achieved ever tighter tolerences, it is far more likely that if a fault occurs it is not going to be a 'RIF', but a 'Generic Product Problem'... and yes they LOVE TLA's!

It was a hot potatoe, oh almost twenty years ago when I started in the industry, and very hard to tackle, particularly as the electronic systems became ever more advanced. It was a particularly big issue on one project I worked on, which proposed a devolved system of avionics control unit; rather than having some 'master' computer, and then lots and lots of dedicated relays or equipment controllers; it used sub-controllers on a 'plug & play' basis. One controller, doesn't matter whether its controlling a flap, a rudder, a landing stancion, or a cabin door; plug it in, it interogates what its plugged into, decides what it is, then goes and gets the software to work it... wonderful idea for minimum stores inventory and standardisation.... BUT, get a GPP? EVERYTHING on the aircraft is likely to stop working.... and not just THAT air-craft, every other using the same system!

And I suspect, that this is one of the reasons that we hear of so many major calamities in the industry, and air-craft groundings, these days..... any individual 'fault' is so much more likely to prove to be pandemic, not isolated.....

That and fact that the very tight qualification requirements for flight approval have been being eroded and relaxed!

Twenty years ago, components for use on aircraft ALL had to be 'mil-spec' screened, put through very rigorous reliability trials; but expense for the volume sales, meant that manufacturers were reluctant to offer Mil-spec components, and if they did, they were exhorbitantly expensive. So, they have been dumbing down the requirments and for twenty years allowing 'Com-Spec' parts to be used in non-critical systems..... which has opened a rather wide door for them to 'creep' into critical systems via 'Approval by Precedent' or 'on Waiver'; rather than actually being tested, kit is approved on the basis of a study that ties to suggest that the equipment is 'just like' something else, that's approved or 'proven'.

And the market is led by the Americans, significantly Boeing.... and the american attitude of 'better to ask forgiveness than permission' is rather endemic....

I like levers and rods...... I REALLY like levers and rods! a lone Mechie in the snake pit of electronics factories has only ever increased my appreciation of levers, rods, screws, cables, rivets and 'stuff'!

https://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/408442_553034234721498_1706764267_n.jpg

Started to learn to fly this thing.... it's sort of err... well, it flies.... I think I built free-flight model gliders out of balsa-wood and tissue paper that were more 'advanced' when I was a kid! Its sort of a big kite, with a rally seat slung under it with a strimmer engine on the back, made out of tent-poles, tend sheeting, and bits of string!

YET... yet it remains so much more mechanically tactile and devoid of SO much stuff that can possibly go wrong!

Though aparently there is one big bolt that goes through the hinge between the wing and the carriage they call the 'Jesus-Pin'... becouse if THAT fails, he's about the only one who can save you!

But its METAL, and I trust metal. I can see it, I can touch it!
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