Skidding your bike (deliberately)

[Timmeh]

And no, I don't mean in a fun way on a muddy field.

Even the most experienced and hardest of the hardcore (of which I am not) bikers surely worry about locking up under heavy braking or just losing traction. Sure, obs go a long way to defeating this threat by judging the road conditions, but everyone will get caught out eventually. Be it a diesel land-mine or the dopey fool pulling out on you, we've all had to do emergency stops where we weren't quite sure if we were either going to stop in time or lose traction and bin it.

When I did my CBT there was this chap who was petrified of using the front brake for fear that he'd lose the front end and have a spill. So much so that he failed his test. Despite the instructor trying everthing to avert his worry. The same is true for the emergency stop on your big test. CB500s or ER6s or whatever don't usually have the world's greatest brakes and when you're getting used to a new bike there's always a bit of uncertainty on to how hard it will stop before skidding.

Of all the things we're taught to do in our training, learning to control skids isn't. It's not like our instructors are going to say to us, 'right I want you to deliberately lose control and then try to correct it.' Especially as it's their bike we're about to drop. All they can do is tell us what to do and how to (try) to control it. That's all great in hindsight or in the quiet calmness of the car park but when push comes to shove the panic will set in and then invariably bad stuff will happen.

I watch the bike spill vids on youtube and wotnot not because I have a morbid fascination with watching our fellow bikers stack it and give themselves injuries, but I ask myself 'what would I have done in that situation.' Invariably you'll get the 'poor obs' comments but if you can look beyond that and put yourself in their shoes and imagine what they saw, which isn't usually what the camera saw. Frequently I pay attention to their hands to see what they were doing (if in shot) to judge thinking times and distances.

In most I've seen there is a moments hesitation from starting to apply to really giving hammering the brakes. This I attest to the fear of losing control, which overrides the fear of hitting something. We all know that hitting something hard will hurt. What we don't know is what will hurt more, maybe skidding off and hitting something else or what is straight in front of us. Subconsciously we may even be deciding that hitting something we can't avoid absolves us of blame, whereas locking up a wheel would be our fault. It's human nature to try to avoid the unknown as much as possible.

Logic dictates that we should slow down the bike as much as we can before the inevitable happens. That's where I'm slightly in favour of optional ABS. Here you don't have to worry about locking up, just squeeze as hard as you like and pray that the software controlling your brakes is up to scratch. That said, given the choice, I'd still opt for manual braking because I prefer the idea that my levers are directly attached to the calipers.

Anyway, I digress. Back to the point.

When braking, and we don't know what the limits are, we are guessing how much force we can apply. In normal conditions, we will leave ourselves a large margin of error and judge our stopping distances accordingly (unless you're being an idiot, of course). As we get to know our ride and how it handles, this margin will come down and you will start to use the controls more aggressively as your confidence builds. I rag my TZR senseless at times, because I know how much grip it has by riding it on the most rubbish roads in Norfolk. (It's also a dirty little stroker and I get much pleasure from poisoning the atmosphere but that's the subject of another thread)

Before this becomes a dissertation that Teffers would be proud of, I'll get to the point. Losing the back or front end should not be feared. If I was an anarchist and didn't fear the safetyborg I'd say go and try it, you can get most bikes to skid at a snail's pace if you stamp on the pedal. Front-end skids are harder to control but are controllable with a bit of practice.

After bedding in new pads or changing fluids, I will actually go out to make sure that I can lock the wheels up, albeit slowly. If I can't, then something's wrong. You only know something is working when you put it to the test.

What I'd love to see is training bikes with big stabilizers so new bikers can have a go at skidding. I'm not talking stupid speeds and spin-outs here, but actually a serious go at teaching something. Not just because it's a bit of fun if done safely but it would condition them to know what a sliding bike feels like, and they could learn how to really get a feel for brakes and how bikes behave. Maximum braking effort occurs at the point where the wheel is about to lock up, and that extra 1mph/sec deceleration might mean the difference between an accident, a serious accident, or a near-miss. After all, advanced drivers get to do it on a skid-pan, so why can't we?

Food for lunchtime thought.

(OP expects to get fully shot down in flames though)

Cheers
Timmeh
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[MarJay]

Because of the way the front suspension on a bike works, it's extremely hard to lock the front wheel.

Rear is easy, front is hard.

I might feel the need to practice rear wheel lockups, but I don't feel the need to practice front wheel lock ups. If the rear wheel is lifting, I'm at the limit of how hard I can brake anyway, so why lock it up?

Pointless, IMO.
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[Kwakki Si]

I gues the only time you will find out how much abuse your front brakes can take is when a pillock in a car pulls out on you, happened to me and i braked very hard but was still progressive and didnt just grab a fistfull, bike seems to be good at hard braking but then it was a very warm sunny dry day, in the wet i may of gone down...
I think the problem with people loosing the front is when they just grab a fistfull and dont be progressive, thing is its easy to do if you panic, alot depends on the person i suppose, time seems to slow down in these situations like somekind of spider sense.
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[WindyMiller]

I did a skid pan training course (cars, not bikes) a while ago down at Castle Combe. I'm pretty sure I learned something about car control when you've got bugger all grip, although I mainly went for the sideways-driving grin factor.

I've wondered if there was any bike equivalent, but I haven't found one yet. Just got to figure out how to stay upright for myself...
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YBR125 SV650S Triumph Sprint ST 1050

[G]

The CSS has such a bike, though it's designed to stop you high siding (or low siding) when getting on the power.

In good conditions with decent tyres the front should always have enough grip not to lock when upright.

When leant over, it may be another matter.

When riding for fun, it doesn't bother me - however I do like the idea of an ABS bike for wet weather use for commuting etc - when I may not have the choice of the safety bubble I would like, nor the choice of the road conditions I would like (not going out when it's wet).

I've had front wheel lockups that I've recovered from, some at pretty high speed (say around 100mph at Snetterton) and others that I haven't (say around 100mph at Snetterton).
Even expecting it, you're going to have a lot less time to correct yourself if testing it in adverse conditions.
In good conditions I'd worry you'll prove the bike landing on you after it flips you if you keep trying to lock the front.

[garth]

I try to slide quite alot, mainly by going down the gears too quickly and feathering the rear brake.

There's no real reason for this, I just find it lessens the dull factor when riding shit bikes.

I don't try and slide the front, generally when I do I fall off. I did manage to leave a 20ft skidmark with my front wheel avoiding a crash a few months back, but this wasn't intentional, and just concreted my dislike of Avon tyres.
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You ain't a has been if you never was

[G]

[Gazza M]

I did a skid pan a couple of years ago in a car - taught me a lot, although by the end i was seeing how close i could get the nose of the car to the inside cone I can remember seeing a video of a bike with outriggers going over various patches of ice/oil/gravel and the rider attempting to hang on. Looked fun.

I've had a few rear wheel lockups - the one i can remember I was coming round Hyde Park corner on my 125, suddenly realised the pelican crossing was red and ended up parked sideways across the road whilst everyone crossed. Probably looked quite smooth
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Past: '07 YBR125, '00 GPZ500S, '99 ZRX1100, '98 CBR600 track bike, '97 ZX9R
Present: '05 R6 track bike, 140 pit bike

[Clive L]

The rear wheel lock up is much easier to control than a front wheel one, as you have more time to ease off. Any non-abs bike with decent brakes can lock the front wheel if it is snatched hard, which can happen if you panic, so rather than practising locking up, regular practice of firm but progressive braking is recommended for everyone.

In reality emergency stops are needed very rarely, so we advise every one of our students to practice on their own bike every week. I do, and at 60mph.
But make sure there is no-one about, on a road it is legal. On my advanced course I did in Ireland, my instructor had us doing 80 for it.

[barrkel]

Another way to lock the front is hitting a bump (like a speed bump) while braking hard; I dropped my ER6 doing this, the forks bottomed out and broke traction.

It is indeed hard to lock the front in good conditions though. I end up in a stoppie when I brake on my ER6 like I do my SH300, which has ABS, and does remove the fear.
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Bikes: S1000R, SH350; Exes: Vity 125, PS125, YBR125, ER6f, VFR800, Brutale 920, CB600F, SH300x4
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[Vracktal]

I 'practice' locking the rear wheel on my bike quite a bit, usually in the wet cause it saves the tyres a bit... where I park my bike, I have to turn 90 degrees to the direction of traffic and bump up a kerb, I like to try and slide the bike so i'm at the right angle to bump up the kerb without putting my foot down at any point. Tricky on a mile-high dualsport, but quite fun and very satisfying when you pull it off and people from other flats are watching. Hello ladies...
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2007 BMW R1200R: On road
2009 BMW G650X Challenge: On road
1975 Norton Commando 850: Off road, awaiting recommissioning

[J.M.]

This thread wasn't what I was expecting

I've started doing some skidding deliberately. Parking. Trying to slide the back out to park the bike horizontally Today's attempt was pathetic. I barely skidded at all. I'm glad nobody saw. I'll gradually keep giving it a little bit more until I get close [read never].
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2004 R1 & 2018 XSR900

[Alpha-9]

I love braking and trying to control skids, it's really fun especially on loose gravel, it's the being on the edge of control which is what makes risk fun, and you only need the slightest brake on loose gravel to get a nice KSHHHHT noise

It's why I was doing it on the BBQ field although fail
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Fzr-600 1999

[Eddie Hitler]

Timmeh, as your from Norfolk you will understand why I don't rag my motorbike. It's not just the road surface but the amount of idiots driving on country lanes.

Anyway, skidding. Erhm. Something you should certainly expect. What would most likely cause a crash is panicking during a skid. Relax, let the bike do what it wants to do, once you have regained traction THEN react.

That's what I do anyway.

[Noxious89123]

I binned my old bike by locking up the front when it was cold and wet out. Emergency top situation, squeezed the brakes on progressively, but had top brake seriously hard not to rear end the numpty that had pulled out in front of me. Lost the front before the rear lifted, and there was no warning in the milliseconds before it went out from under me that it was going to slide. That's what worries me the most; There was no slight slide before it went, just bang! Floor.

In contrast though, I'd say that I was braking way way harder than I ever thought possible in the wet, right upto the point where I binned it ofcourse.
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