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Electric storage game changer?

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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 20:59 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Electric storage game changer? Reply with quote
I normally take breakthroughs such as this new method of producing supercapacitors using a bog standard DVD burner with a pinch of salt...

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/ucla-researchers-develop-new-technique-243553.aspx

But even tesla are suggesting the tech will be a game changer:

https://www.teslamotors.com/en_EU/forum/forums/graphene-supercapacitor-cells-how-pencil-lead-and-dvd-burner-will-change-world

Energy density of Li-ion but with a recharge time of seconds! If this does come to fruition then almost all the arguments against electric vehicles are gone...
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J.M.
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PostPosted: 21:23 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Re: Electric storage game changer? Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
If this does come to fruition then almost all the arguments against electric vehicles are gone...


It is quite a game changer in that respect. 100 mile range with a charging time of 5-10 minutes I could cope with. Especially for a commuter!
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 21:28 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
this still requires the generation of electricity to charge said car
where as hydrogen fuel cells will generate there own with no nasty by product
though it may be a short term solution as hydrogen power is a few years away
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 21:29 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Re: Electric storage game changer? Reply with quote
J.M. wrote:
It is quite a game changer in that respect. 100 mile range with a charging time of 5-10 minutes I could cope with. Especially for a commuter!


Quite! Although they're talking even less than that - seconds...

I also suspect that the capacitors will not have to be contained in the same way as Li-ion. Perhaps that would allow much more even distribution throughout the vehicle. I also don't know much about the volatility of these capacitors, but perhaps they could replace things like honeycomb crash structures thus making weight savings elsewhere in the vehicle and allowing yet more to be added for increased range or just leaving it at less weight!
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 21:33 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Err, except the UK electricity generation capacity which only has a small surplus and its narrowing because a number of coal plants are being closed to satisfy the greenies. And as an added bonus nuclear plants are being decommissioned.


At 10kw energy per litre of petrol and 32bn litres of petrol sold, thats a hell of a lot more capacity for electricity we need to generate.
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 21:35 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
oldpink wrote:
this still requires the generation of electricity to charge said car
where as hydrogen fuel cells will generate there own with no nasty by product
though it may be a short term solution as hydrogen power is a few years away


And where exactly do you get the hydrogen from then? Hydrogen is more like a medium of storage rather than a fuel source.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 21:37 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
oldpink wrote:
this still requires the generation of electricity to charge said car
where as hydrogen fuel cells will generate there own with no nasty by product
though it may be a short term solution as hydrogen power is a few years away


Where do you get the hydrogen from? You still need to generate it and electrolysis is the preferred method. Even if you did come up with a novel way of making it that didn't require electricity you'd still require energy of some kind!

I do like hydrogen as an idea, but this seems (if true) to leave it as a lame duck.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 21:43 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
Err, except the UK electricity generation capacity which only has a small surplus and its narrowing because a number of coal plants are being closed to satisfy the greenies. And as an added bonus nuclear plants are being decommissioned.


At 10kw energy per litre of petrol and 32bn litres of petrol sold, thats a hell of a lot more capacity for electricity we need to generate.


It's a good point, but we already know that using a low power ICE engine to charge batteries (or in this case super capacitors) which then power electric motors is more efficient than a straight ICE. So even without changing the energy source we already use less fuel and thus reduce dependence on other countries.

Assuming that some of the slack can be taken up using other forms of power then this reduces oil dependency even further. And don't forget the more batteries/supercapacitors plugged into the national grid the fewer spikes there are going to be, meaning power plants can be run at their most efficient levels rather than surging to meet demand.
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://www.nature.com/news/liquid-storage-could-make-hydrogen-a-feasible-fuel-1.12518

Quote:
A process for extracting hydrogen from a liquid fuel could remove one of the biggest hurdles to a 'hydrogen economy', its discoverers say. They have developed a catalyst that harvests the gas from methanol, a liquid fuel that — unlike hydrogen itself — can be easily transported and stored.

Matthias Beller, a chemical engineer at the University of Rostock in Germany, and his colleagues hope that methanol might one day be sluiced through pipelines and poured into tankers, before chemical reactions convert the liquid back to hydrogen where it is needed — for example to provide power to off-grid villages, or run cars or mobile devices.

Hydrogen has a high energy density and is completely clean, burning to leave behind only water vapour as waste. It cannot be mined in large amounts, but proponents of a hydrogen economy say that it could be produced in vast quantities from water using excess electricity from wind turbines and solar plants. Unfortunately, because hydrogen is a gas it is difficult to store and transport safely unless compressed or liquefied, which is cumbersome and takes a lot of energy. Many chemists have spent decades studying how best to trap hydrogen for use as a fuel.

Locking the gas up in the form of solid or liquid chemicals is one answer. Many materials proposed for hydrogen storage, however, either don’t trap much, or hold onto the hydrogen so tightly that it takes an unfeasible amount of energy to retrieve.

That was the problem with methanol. It is straightforward to turn hydrogen into the liquid fuel: a well-known reaction combines hydrogen and carbon monoxide gases using commercial catalysts. Methanol also traps a lot of hydrogen (12.5% by weight). Yet to release the gas, chemists have previously had to heat liquid methanol to 200 °C at 25–50 times atmospheric pressure.

But Beller and his colleagues report today in Nature1 that they have discovered a soluble ruthenium-based catalyst that can efficiently turn methanol into hydrogen at a mere 65–95 °C, and at ambient pressure.


yes it is still something for the future but I think it will come
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
..



Ooh look the Matrix is here:

https://www.geek.com/articles/chips/fujifilm-creates-organic-printed-sheet-that-harvests-energy-from-body-heat-2013026/
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 21:55 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Re: Electric storage game changer? Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
but with a recharge time of seconds!

That is the important bit. The one thing putting me off electric vehicles (as a kid who had a rechargeable radio controlled Jeep from Tandy in the 80s) is how long it takes to charge up compared to how long it'll run for. I've never really considered as an option the whole "changing the horses at the coaching inn" idea of swapping out the whole battery a few times per journey - if manufacturers can't come up with uniform oil filters they can't come up with uniform batteries either. But if they can genuinely come up with something that'll recharge as quickly as I can fill my tank up at present, sign me up.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 22:05 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
oldpink wrote:
https://www.nature.com/news/liquid-storage-could-make-hydrogen-a-feasible-fuel-1.12518

yes it is still something for the future but I think it will come


Brilliant! The problem is that you still have to make the methanol (catalyst + quite a lot of energy)... And... The end result after releasing the Hydrogen (again, catalyst and a bit less energy) is a whole load of Carbon Monoxide. You then have the job of compressing and then burning the hydrogen.

So, sure the life cycle is carbon neutral(ish) the CO that comes out is only what was put in in the first place, but you have to do three conversions on your fuel before you then start burning it.

I really did think hydrogen had a chance, but if graphene supercapacitors really are as good as claimed and can be made so cheaply then hydrogen is a non-starter. Especially from a business perspective - home hydrogen generation is incredibly easy, home electricity generation (enough to power your car(s) and house) is not.
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 22:19 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think Graphene has a lot of uses we have not even thought of yet
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Nexus Icon
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PostPosted: 22:21 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
oldpink wrote:
I think Graphene has a lot of uses we have not even thought of yet


I reckon if you scrambled all the atoms you could make lead for pencils.
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stonesie
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PostPosted: 22:26 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Re: Electric storage game changer? Reply with quote
angryjonny wrote:
daemonoid wrote:
but with a recharge time of seconds!

That is the important bit. The one thing putting me off electric vehicles (as a kid who had a rechargeable radio controlled Jeep from Tandy in the 80s) is how long it takes to charge up compared to how long it'll run for. I've never really considered as an option the whole "changing the horses at the coaching inn" idea of swapping out the whole battery a few times per journey - if manufacturers can't come up with uniform oil filters they can't come up with uniform batteries either. But if they can genuinely come up with something that'll recharge as quickly as I can fill my tank up at present, sign me up.



As above, and I remember my "Fast Traxx" 4-5 hours on charge for 10-15 minuets of fun. Laughing

But yeah, if there was an electric car with 100-150 miles of range and a sub 10 minuet re-charge which cost less than £5 then I would be very interested...
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:32 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is brilliant. I guess for such a rapid charging time, a huge amount of current would have to be drawn from the supply. That might cause some problems/risks. But I'm not one to shoot down such an awesome thing.

I wonder how much the oil industry will try to suppress it, if it does take off.

Also I wonder if it would actually make us greater (and therefore worse) consumers of energy? 'Oh it charges so quickly so I'll just use it as much as I like' - somewhat distanced from the fact that the energy still needs to be produced, if you get me.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 22:32 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

To me the bigger problem is power consumption of charging.

Say for a 100 mile range you need 20kWh of power (close enough, 2 hours at 50mph taking about 10kW per hour, a bit high but allows for heater / air conditioning, etc). A recharge time of 5 minutes means a 1000 amp power supply. About 10 times the power that a domestic supply can cope with.

A standard swappable battery pack would take far less investment.

All the best

Keith
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 22:37 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Hi

To me the bigger problem is power consumption of charging.

Say for a 100 mile range you need 20kWh of power (close enough, 2 hours at 50mph taking about 10kW per hour, a bit high but allows for heater / air conditioning, etc). A recharge time of 5 minutes means a 1000 amp power supply. About 10 times the power that a domestic supply can cope with.

A standard swappable battery pack would take far less investment.

All the best

Keith

Maybe so. But I don't fill my car with petrol at home either. I'd happily trickle-fill it overnight at home, but when I'm out on the road and I need a recharge I want it done quickly. There's no reason 1000 amp charging stations can't operate like petrol stations do now, is there? (genuine question - I don't really *get* electrics)
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:42 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
1000A charging stations are certainly possible.

However I have this strange image in my head:

Y'know how petrol stations can be blown up (or at least they can in the movies). Well I imagine an electric charging station, with several 1000A leads, to be something like a scene from the matrix, when the sentinels are trying to break into the ship and they have to use that electric gun thing that sounds like a firework.

Laughing
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stonesie
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PostPosted: 22:50 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
There's already electric buses that can re-charge in under 2 hours using a 50KW charger... The technology is coming on fast.


Source
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el_oso
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PostPosted: 22:52 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
I did a project using super capacitors back in college. Quite remarkable. I was able to make a little buggy that could run for a couple of minutes by charging it up instantly, quite literally. By the time you had plugged it into the wall you could take it out again because it was fully charged. Was also connected up to a couple of solar panels and was able to charge throughout the day.

Chemical reactions are not the way to go for solving the energy needs. Nuclear is the only way imo. It's how nature does it. It's how we should do it.

also, when we crack room temperature superconductivity, which graphene has shown it can also do (although under debate), then these 1000A power lines will be absolutely no problem.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 22:53 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
angryjonny wrote:

Maybe so. But I don't fill my car with petrol at home either. I'd happily trickle-fill it overnight at home, but when I'm out on the road and I need a recharge I want it done quickly. There's no reason 1000 amp charging stations can't operate like petrol stations do now, is there? (genuine question - I don't really *get* electrics)


Certainly possible, but with only a 100 mile range and a similar charging time to the time taken to refuel a car we would need at least 3 times the charging points as we have pumps. So the town Asda with 8 pumps would be replaced with one with at least 24 charging points. So about 24000 amp supply required (that is about 6MW).

All the best

Keith
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 22:57 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
the_godfather wrote:
Nuclear is the only way imo. It's how nature does it. It's how we should do it.

also, when we crack room temperature superconductivity, which graphene has shown it can also do (although under debate), then these 1000A power lines will be absolutely no problem.


if we can crack cold fusion then nuclear will be a winner Thumbs Up
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:57 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
I imagine the government would try to install charging points all over. In the end you would just need to use your PIN card, plug it in and go. Much like a parking meter. Petrol stations are only the way they are because of the need to keep all the fuel there.

I wonder if it would be possible to drive through a thunderstorm and get a turbo boost if your aerial is hit by lightning Thinking ?
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el_oso
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
sa1988 wrote:
I imagine the government would try to install charging points all over. In the end you would just need to use your PIN card, plug it in and go. Much like a parking meter. Petrol stations are only the way they are because of the need to keep all the fuel there.

I wonder if it would be possible to drive through a thunderstorm and get a turbo boost if your aerial is hit by lightning Thinking ?


or travel back to the future

https://dejareviewer.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/marty-the-delorean-time-machine-and-a-bolt-of-lightning-e1316299579166.jpg
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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