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Rolls Royce paid no tax in 2012

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el_oso
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PostPosted: 20:32 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Rolls Royce paid no tax in 2012 Reply with quote
sort of spurred on from the other tax thread
BBC Rolls Royce Story

Do you think this is right?
I'm not really sure I see too much of a problem. 12,000 people have jobs. A fair amount of highly skilled/graduate level jobs. A number of people from my university that studied aeronautical/automotive/mechanical engineering are now working there on a pretty decent salary.
Maybe I'm missing the point, but where does the profits from this business go? If it's shareholders pockets then surely they would then be taxed on this as it is a source of income? I'm no economist, but I would rather a big business stay there, provide 12,000 jobs than relocate elsewhere and then lose 12,000 jobs.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
If they didn't pay tax, you can be sure they legally didn't have to.

Fuck this Cameron morality shit, if you don't have to pay tax, you won't. It's up to the government to make laws that don't have loopholes, or is it that Camerons fat cat friends use the loopholes as well and don't want them closed Rolling Eyes
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 20:48 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
If they didn't pay tax, you can be sure they legally didn't have to.

Fuck this Cameron morality shit, if you don't have to pay tax, you won't. It's up to the government to make laws that don't have loopholes, or is it that Camerons fat cat friends use the loopholes as well and don't want them closed Rolling Eyes


Fucking right, no cunt likes paying tax. It doesn't matter if you are a CEO or a minimum wager, if there is a legal way to not pay tax, you will take it.

It pisses me off when people criticism corporations for only paying the legal minimum. Blame the legal structure that allows them to, not the companies simply doing what everyone does.
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Re: Rolls Royce paid no tax in 2012 Reply with quote
the_godfather wrote:
Maybe I'm missing the point, but where does the profits from this business go?


If you've read the article in the link you posted yourself, you'd see it it's not "profit" if they class it as "R&D".
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el_oso
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PostPosted: 21:05 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Re: Rolls Royce paid no tax in 2012 Reply with quote
The Shaggy D.A. wrote:
the_godfather wrote:
Maybe I'm missing the point, but where does the profits from this business go?


If you've read the article in the link you posted yourself, you'd see it it's not "profit" if they class it as "R&D".


Maybe I have read it wrong/differently. It says it spends millions in R&D. Their pre-tax profit was 1.4bn. I assumed that meant that not everything was spent on R&D.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 21:11 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Re: Rolls Royce paid no tax in 2012 Reply with quote
The Shaggy D.A. wrote:
the_godfather wrote:
Maybe I'm missing the point, but where does the profits from this business go?


If you've read the article in the link you posted yourself, you'd see it it's not "profit" if they class it as "R&D".


If they reinvest then it certainly isn't profit. If the government stopped R&D allowances then UK companies would soon stagnate. They also paid £285mil out of the UK - why's that? Because the UK tax rates are too high and they can legitimately pay tax elsewhere.

Their 12,000 workers (assuming they're only on average wage) cause at least £144mil in tax to be paid to HMRC (both employer and employee contributions). They also create a whole host of jobs in the wider community - from direct suppliers to simple things like nearby sandwich shops etc.
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scarborough_lad
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PostPosted: 23:34 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
The made no profit in the UK because they put it all back into R&D, I would much rather they spent it on that than on benefits and council houses.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 23:52 - 04 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
scarborough_lad wrote:
The made no profit in the UK because they put it all back into R&D, I would much rather they spent it on that than on benefits and council houses.


Really? You'd rather they didn't contribute £144mil in tax and employ 12,000 people long term so that you could get about 500 council houses and people in them for a couple of years...

Without constant R&D RR would soon be worthless.
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Scythe
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PostPosted: 00:02 - 05 Mar 2013    Post subject: Re: Rolls Royce paid no tax in 2012 Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:


If you've read the article in the link you posted yourself, you'd see it it's not "profit" if they class it as "R&D".


If they reinvest then it certainly isn't profit. If the government stopped R&D allowances then UK companies would soon stagnate. They also paid £285mil out of the UK - why's that? Because the UK tax rates are too high and they can legitimately pay tax elsewhere.

Their 12,000 workers (assuming they're only on average wage) cause at least £144mil in tax to be paid to HMRC (both employer and employee contributions). They also create a whole host of jobs in the wider community - from direct suppliers to simple things like nearby sandwich shops etc.[/quote]

Derby also has an unusually high average wage for the UK thanks to Rolls Royce. Business in Derby depends on Rolls-Royce to an extent, other engineering firms are setting up in the area also to attract RR's staff.
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FZ6_mk
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PostPosted: 00:39 - 05 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
There's a difference between Tax avoidance and tax evasion, the former being completely legal. R&D tax credits is a scheme pushed by the government - there is nothing wrong with what RR has done it seems.

Other big corps do push the morality bounds I think, taking advantage of over complex group structures and pushing profits to entities registered in tax havens through intercompany 'service fee's' and interest is cheating the UK economy IMO.

R&D tax credits are normally applied at 130% of spend against taxable income, thousands of companies in the UK take advantage, its what its there for!

The UK press demonising companies like RR isnt doing our economic climate any good, just look what happened to Bombardier.
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Nick__C
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PostPosted: 01:47 - 05 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
scarborough_lad wrote:
The made no profit in the UK because they put it all back into R&D, I would much rather they spent it on that than on benefits and council houses.


Really? You'd rather they didn't contribute £144mil in tax and employ 12,000 people long term so that you could get about 500 council houses and people in them for a couple of years...

Without constant R&D RR would soon be worthless.



That's exactly what he just said? Laughing Thumbs Up
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 02:43 - 05 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
The reality is that either you let companies dodge the tax, or pay low taxes, or they just leave the country. Socialists and Liberals don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that you can bash these people with taxes to "help the poor and make everyone equal", they're unlikely to sit around and take it, so we really will end up with an equal share of nothing.

daemonoid wrote:
scarborough_lad wrote:
The made no profit in the UK because they put it all back into R&D, I would much rather they spent it on that than on benefits and council houses.


Really? You'd rather they didn't contribute £144mil in tax and employ 12,000 people long term so that you could get about 500 council houses and people in them for a couple of years...

Without constant R&D RR would soon be worthless.


I think you should re-read his post Wink
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 08:31 - 05 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
I think you should re-read his post Wink


Ah, um... Embarassed
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 09:41 - 05 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:


Without constant R&D RR would soon be worthless.


Didn't stop Gordon Brown taxing R&D spending, the rule was something silly like it has to result in a viable product.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:24 - 05 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
There's no inherent merit to paying tax. It's an expense like any other, and it's just hilarious that politicians are lecturing on the ethics of gaming the system.

What I object to is them receiving a single penny in handouts. That's all robbed from my pocket.
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scarborough_lad
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 05 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
scarborough_lad wrote:
The made no profit in the UK because they put it all back into R&D, I would much rather they spent it on that than on benefits and council houses.


Really? You'd rather they didn't contribute £144mil in tax and employ 12,000 people long term so that you could get about 500 council houses and people in them for a couple of years...

Without constant R&D RR would soon be worthless.


You've misunderstood me, I'd rather RR reinvest the money, rather than the government wasting it.
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scarborough_lad
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PostPosted: 18:14 - 05 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
daemonoid wrote:


Without constant R&D RR would soon be worthless.


Didn't stop Gordon Brown taxing R&D spending, the rule was something silly like it has to result in a viable product.


cos he wuz a muppet
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 18:15 - 05 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
There's no inherent merit to paying tax. It's an expense like any other, and it's just hilarious that politicians are lecturing on the ethics of gaming the system.

What I object to is them receiving a single penny in handouts. That's all robbed from my pocket.


Yup, it is why I hate communists, socialists, egalitarians, fascists (like the current government) etc because they want to loaf off others rather than make it themselves.

What is even more patronising is the threatening letters HMRC send our periodically, about how tax benefits everybody.

No it bloody doesn't, its simple theft. I only pay it because you'll break my legs.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 19:13 - 05 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
I only pay it because you'll break my legs.


Extortion is the word used to describe taking money under threat of violence. It doesn't matter if it is a mafia boss taking the money or HMRC.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 14:28 - 08 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
unitynotsocrippledatmo wrote:
I have no problems paying tax,nations need armies and schools,its just the tax collectors are frauds,vampires and abusers,like a large minority of capitalists,and everyone else for that matter,


Taxation should reflect the services you receive from the central government. At every turn (perhaps bar military and justice departments) you should have the opportunity to take care of yourself and in turn pay a much less tax.

For instance, you sort yourself out with private healthcare? You now get to sign away your nhs entitlement and in return you receive you don't pay health tax.

You are free to make contracts with private companies who provide goods and services you require, in return you get to stop paying the associated taxes.

In practice the services which truly are better done by the state would still remain, as private companies would not be profitable due to low takeup. However, companies offering services that can do a better job than the state would become profitable and prolific.

A state monopoly, created through legislation and enforced by taxation is just as bad as a corporate one.
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el_oso
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PostPosted: 15:07 - 08 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
I can see a point, but where do you stop tax? Not everyone has children. Taxing schools or private schooling would lead to no one having kids. (which may be good for the planet). What about things like the police? would you privatise that? privatising it would make capalism worse. Everyone would be trying to selling stuff 100% of the time
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 15:21 - 08 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
the_godfather wrote:
I can see a point, but where do you stop tax? Not everyone has children. Taxing schools or private schooling would lead to no one having kids. (which may be good for the planet). What about things like the police? would you privatise that? privatising it would make capalism worse. Everyone would be trying to selling stuff 100% of the time


I put in an exemption for "justice", under that umbrella lives the police, courts, prisons etc.

I'm not quite a full anarchist, I've never found any of the theoretical "private law enforement" ideas to be satisfactory tbh.

Why should other people pay for someone elses kids? Quite frankly if you are having kids, it is up to you to support them. If you can't support them, you have no business having them.

If the people actually want a service to be provided, it will be in someones financial interest to provide that service. Ergo, the profitable businesses will be those that actually do things that people in general want. Obviously there are niche industries for sportscars and fine wines, but these are the exception rather than the rule.
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Nick__C
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 08 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:

A state monopoly, created through legislation and enforced by taxation is just as bad as a corporate one.


smegballs wrote:

If the people actually want a service to be provided, it will be in someones financial interest to provide that service. Ergo, the profitable businesses will be those that actually do things that people in general want. Obviously there are niche industries for sportscars and fine wines, but these are the exception rather than the rule.


Agreed Thumbs Up
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:55 - 08 Mar 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
the_godfather wrote:
Taxing schools or private schooling would lead to no feckless povs having kids.

FTYA.

Robbing Peter Productive to pay Paula Prickholster is State eugenics.
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