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| jayline |
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jayline
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Rogerborg
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 Posted: 01:16 - 12 Mar 2013  Post subject: |
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It looks like the 156/157FMI engine - see if that's stamped on it somewhere. If so, that's a very popular copy of the Honda CG engine.
However, while the internals will all be identical or nearly so, there's no guarantee that the casings - and particularly the mounts - will be the same.
When you say "blown", what's up with it? They're pretty simple beasts, there's not much to go wrong with them. It's usually the welds, frame and sprocket bolts that go on those bikes, which is why putting a bigger engine in it is just asking for trouble.
I know that's not the answer you want, but it's an honest one.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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jayline
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evoboy
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symonh2000
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kramdra
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| Posted: 11:46 - 12 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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Find a pdf manual for a cg or chinky engine and take it apart, they are quite simple. You can get new barrels/heads cheap enough.
CG engines are nothing amazing, if your going to swap put something decent in. Find a welder that can fabricate new mounts. If you get the intake/carbs/electrics with engine, and it fits, it will work 
Chinese bikes are usually desgined well but are assembled shite. You should strip everything off the frame and reassemble, then you would have a good, slow, bike. I done the same with a £200 125. |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 12:34 - 12 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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| jayline wrote: | So am I right in saying I can fit any other cg125 engine in this bike |
No, that's exactly what I'm not saying. The internals will be very similar (you may find "CG125" on the pushrods) but the mounts might be out. You'd have to measure the mounts on any candidate engine to see - you might get lucky.
But I'd have a look at what's wrong with it first. "Blown" could mean anything from the crankshaft exiting through the case, or a bent pushrod, or 5 minutes of fiddling to remedy owner apathy.
Haynes to a generic "Chinese motorcycle" manual, or you could try a CG125 one or just have a look at this CG125 site for ideas on where to start.
| jayline wrote: | How tuneable are these engines as I'm looking into making quite a nice bike out of this? |
They're not. It's an ancient pushrod design, it's simple, robust and low maintenance, but it won't suck, bang or blow much harder than it was intended to.
Just for laughs, I chopped the cats out of my 156FMI engine bike's exhaust, fitted a free flow filter and fiddled with the jetting and gearing. The end result was that it made more noise and used more petrol. It was happiest when put (mostly) back to stock.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 14:43 - 12 Mar 2013  Post subject: |
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You're new to biking....
I know its not what you want to hear, but as others have said, BIN IT.
If you know enough about bikes to live with a Chinky-Copy..... you wouldn't have bought one. More so one as a 'project'.
You can buy brand new Chinks for a grand.
Second hand they are worth bog all.
This is a road to ruin, in as far as if you ever get the bike 'fixed up', it will in all liklihood cost you more than its worth, as well as being a sub-standard unreliable heap of hassle.
You wont listen of course.... you will almost certainly have to learn the hard way.... buty dont say we didn't warn you!
| jayline wrote: | In regards of the blown engine the bloke let water get into it and its done its damage  as it was quite a bit as he jet washes the bike with the filter off and it was to late before he realised and so he started it up to get rid of it and he thinks its cracked the block? |
Oh FFS.... this sounds like bollox.
You can fill a cylinder with water; dirt riders do it fairly often when they fall over in a river and submerged in water, still running, the engine sucks in water not air.
They dont start with a pot full of water.
If there's enough water in the cyclinder to stop the engine turning over, its called hydrauliced; piston comes up, and on the compression stroke, the valves closed, cant squash the water, like it would air, so; usually the piston just stops, and the engine will stay locked until you take the spark plug out to give the water an escape route. SOMETIMES, if the engine was already running, when it went in the water, and the piston still has enough enertia behind it, it may bend the con-rod, rather than stop dead.... or occassionally crack the piston rings......but if it wasn;'t running, force from an e-start is hugely unlikely to generate enough force to do that, while a bloke jumping on a kick-starter is more likely to strip the starter gear teeth or something.
If there's not enough water in the pot to hydraulic the motor; but 'some', then water is likely, like a damp morning mist, going to damp the plug, and stop sparks, though more likely, pressure washing the OUTSIDE of the engine, he's got water some-where to short the ignition, so it wouldn;t start.
That is the more lilkely cause of engine failure from throwing water at it...and if anything, its probably siezed from rust between piston & cyclinder whilke he failed to figure out why it didn;t work, as anything.
| jayline wrote: | So am I right in saying I can fit any other cg125 engine in this bike and it will work? |
Nope.
Cg engine comes in many variants; and the Chinese engines are not bolt for bolt identical to even the original Japanese CG engine.
There are differences in the carburettors used; in the electrical systemsl and the ignition.
Not just between the many different model years of CG engine, but the many different derivatives of Chinese Copy, used in the many variouse chinese bikes.
Like I said... if you knew enough about bikes to live with a Chink.... you wouldn;'t buy one..... especially as a project!
| jayline wrote: | How tuneable are these engines as I'm looking into making quite a nice bike out of this? |
They aren't. And you wont.
The Genuine Japanese CG made 10bhp. The Chinese copies were often de-tuned, if not by intent, then by crap quality control; to anything down to around 7-8bhp.
Good ones, can just about scrape 60mph, about 5mph down on the real CG. Typically, they will manage about 55mph. while the 'bad' ones may struggole to do 50.
Super-Motards and dirt bikes, with high seat and wide bars giving a barn door profile ruining aerodynamics, will be even slower. The powerful Yamaha TZR125 with full compliment of 13bhp can reach about 75mph. The DT125, using the same powerful engine, pretty much teh same weight, but with dirt-bike styling tends to top out at about 65mph..... THAT is the kind of 'drop off' dirt/motard styling demands. You want quick? You dont buy a dirt bike or motard. Least of all a low powered learner legal one; even less so, a sub-standard Chinky one!
Err, what was it I said? Oh yeah! If you know enough about bikes to live with a chinky... you wouldn't buy one......
There is a lot that can be done to make a CG or CG copy engine a bit more powerful... but its rather perverse and futile. Reason they can be made to deliver big gains is basically becouse they have fuck-all to start with! But, they are never going to be very powerful.
CG engine went into manufacture in 1977. It was a spin off model from the Honda CB125S, which has an air-cooled, two valve over-head-cam single cylinder engine, producing 12bhp..... 35 years ago, and it made more power than a CG.....
Motorcycle had proved less popular than anticipated; in western-markets, its 12bhp compared favourably with the two-stroke 125's of the era, but at the expense of reliability. In developing markets, its 12bhp was impressive, but it was even more unreliable subjected to third world standards of maintenence & neglect, where two-smokes as long as you kept putting coconut oil in with teh petrol would run almost indefinitely, and if you forgot, wipping the head off and giving the piston a smack with a hammer would normally bring them back to life!
Honda then designed a new bike for Western markets; the Honda CB125T; a twin cylinder machine, with 16.5bhp, still the most powerful production four-stroke 125 ever made.....
And the Honda CG125, which did away with the performance enhancing single-over-head cam-shaft to open and close the valves, and used instead the 'old' technology of push-rods.... and an ingeniouse 'single lobe' cam, gear driven off the crank-shaft at the sump, opening both valves via rockers to give teh correct valve timing, and push-rods to take the motion to the top of the engine.
That system had been considered rather 'limiting' to performance in the 1930's.......
Its just as limiting now. Traditional ways to get more go from an engine, through 'tuning'.
1/ bore the bugger out - there's no replacement for displacement.
CG is limited in how far it can be bored out due to the liner rebate in the crank-cases. Stock barels can be bored to ooooh.. I think 133cc otmh, before you dont have enogh steel left in the cylinder wall to stop the burning gasses bending the cylinder liner and letting preciouse pressure past teh piston rings, rather than pushing the piston down.
2/ Cam It - if you cant make it bigger, get as much charge in and out the motor as possible.
CG is limited as to how 'hot' a cam profile it can take, by the fact that both inlet and exhaust valve share the same cam-profile, so the cam timing cannot be changed to give more 'over-lap' or open the inlet earlier, to let more charge 'in' without that same lobe also opening the exhaust earlier and letting the extra pressure out.
The push-rod design, also imposed other limits as to how wild the cam-profile can be, because it has all the weight of rockers to lift and shift, at both ends of teh push-rod, as well as the push-rod.
Going to a high-lift cam-profile to push the valves open further, then is restricted by fact that the rockers are likely to run out of travel, and at higher revs, rather than opening valves, rockers and push-rods are likely to bend and bow and do nasty things instead of what they ought to.
3/ Rev it - if you cant make it burn a more charge in the pot... make it do it more often.
See above with respect to camming it... CG engines have a pretty low rev cieling before stuff starts to bend break or fall to bits....
Reason why, as early as the 1930's the push-rod overhead valve arrangement had been abandoned for high-performance racing motorcycles, and why even in the 1950's and 60's, the Over-Head-Cam arrangement was offered on more exotic sporting singles, and by the 1970's the 'norm'...
With these fundemental impediments to performance inside the engine; notion you can get any significant gain from bolt on tweeks, like a fancy spark-plug, air-filter or exhaust, are.. sorry a falorn hope.
Pipe & slippers.... sorry a free flowing exhaust and non standard slip on K&N type air filter... rarely find extra power on any bike.
In fact the conical K&N slip on, even in genuine form, is probably more restrictive to flow than most OE air-box systems; they are an expedience to special builders, however, where they have an engine from another bike in the frame, or different carburettors or whatever, and gains they give over an open carb mounth tend to be to do with air-correction, rather than flow ability.
Free-flow exhaust pipes? Removing the restrictions imposed by original equipment exhausts that use cheaper to make baffles rather than more expensive 'glass pack' chambers.
Yeah... in theory a free flowing exhaust might allow an engine it get a bit more charge in the motor...... if its a good one, and the engine is jetted so that it runs with it without melting its slugs.
How much? Well, twenty years of popular speed shop Dyno's has shown that on a 100bhp bike engine.... a really good 'performance pipe' might be worth, ooh 3-4bhp at peak power.... usually associated with a 2-5bhp dip in mid-range power... but 3-5% at peak, if that's what you want, is nothing to be sniffed at....
CG125.. genuine, more powerful Japanese CG125 is rated at 8Kw (Chinky CG copes may be as low as 6.5Kw).... 3-4, oh for easy numbers lets give it a full 5%...... at best 40watts.... the power of a dim electric light-bulb......
That is NOT going to turn your struggles to do 50 Motard into a road-burning, BMW bashing motorway killer, is it?
If you want to get really daft with a CG engine, anything is possible, but you will always be fighting from behind; and its always going to cost money.
I understand that they may, with a lot of detail machining, be bored to about 180cc, using a re-linered barrel, and having the crank cases cut to seat that bigger hole. More than your budget I suspect though.
Valve gear can be lightened, using light weight titanium or carbon fibre push-rods. Still wont let one rev like an Overhead Cam Engine, but will help increase the rev cieling a few hundred rpm... though little can be done about the cam profile.
Porting? Well, the holes in the head, are not really that restrictive to start with; they are by a long shot not the weak link in teh chain, and you would have to get the motor threatening perhaps 12-13bhp before you might need to think about such stuff as changing the port profiles.... at which point, you would probably find that increasing valve sizes was actually more beneficial, and that would probably require re-profiling teh combustion chamber.... filling it with weld and re-cutting it..... and drilling out the valve guides, welding up and re-cutting thier holes to move the valve centres further apart to allow bigger valves without them touching....
Again, all well beyond cheap, and simple, and a £1000 all up budget.
Certain chap on here with proven track record in low rent forced induction systems has attempted a CG-200-Turbo project 'just for fun'.... and that's ended up going 250 two-stroke, as logic dictates easiest way to go for bangs for bucks.....
If you want 'fast'... then you have bought the wrong bike kid.... and as said.... if you know enough about bikes to live with a chink.... you probably wouldn't buy one!
Advice is that they are moderately useful, as poverty spec, low rent bus-fare beaters, but when they start to go wrong YOU DO NOT SPEND MONEY on them, they are a lost cause, you bin-em and buy another.....
You have started with the one some-one else has binned.....
Not good.
IF you are lucky; and IF you get on the learning curve and dont waste to much money or effort in the process of learning, or get side tracked with stupid ideas to make it 'better' than it was when it came out of the factory.....
You start by pulling that motor to bits and finding out what is wrong with it.
Its the engine that's supposed to be in that bike, its the one MOST likely to fit, fit properly, and work properly.
Start by splurging some of your budget on Haynes "Chinese Taiwanese & Korean 125cc Motorcycles" Book Number: 4871 RRP around £15.. check e-bay you might get one for a tenner.
Covers most of the generic Chinky bikes and CG copy engines.
CG copy motor is pretty simple, and ought not be too frightening for a first timer to remove and strip; and copy-parts for them are reletively cheap and plentiful. (Riders of Yeoville do a lot, and I have found to be pleasantly helpful)
From description of 'failure' I suspect the biggest issue with this thing is probably basic ignorance and bullshit.
If you are very lucky; you might find that pulling the motor, you find nothing damaged or worn out, and putting it back together for the price of a gasket kit, and plugging it all back in... works a treat... having in your endevours 'cleared' the original fault... whatever that may have been, from a craped spark-plug to a float bowl full of water and silt, to a connector block full of water shorting the electrics, or whatever.
Worst case, its got a bent con-rod... and a new crank assembly is needed. which would for a chink, not be exhorbitant, and a dang site cheaper than a new engine, and less hassle than a second hand engine that may be in no better shape, and a site more hassle if it dont fit or the plumbing or electrics are different.
Suspected likelhood, is on tear down you'll discover a piston stuck in the cylinder bore, either by rust or melted metal, depending on whether it siezed from being thrashed low on oil. or being sat wioth the spark plug out the whole while the fella scratched his bald spot wondering why it wouldn't work... and new barel and piston for these things is pretty cheap and easy fix.
That done; you do the bare minimum to make the damn thing 'safe' as far as brakes and steering and suspension is concerned; you do NOT spend a penny trying to pretty it up, or tune it up, becouse thats dead dosh.....
Then you go ride the damn thing, and accept that 50-55 is best it will ever do.... but at least its CHEAP and ecconomical....
And if you are very lucky.... when you become utterly frustrated with it, some-one might give you more for it than its cost you to fix up.
BUT; with brand new chink 125's selling for under a grand, second hand ones, dont command big bucks, and even the better, more expensive ones, after their first MOT is up, are down in the bargain basement where £500 is top book for a nice, smart, clean tidy example, and people will still push thier luck and try knocking you down to 'a couple of hundred'. Five Hundred, mate. Thats seriousely top book. Spend a peny more than that, on this bike, and only way you will ever get value from it is riding the thing, and if its not delivering to expectation, even that return is limited.
IF you are thrifty; and strategic, and stick rigidly to plan; doing only what really, NEEDS to be done to make it safe and serviceable, £300 ought to be the target budget, or you are spending time as well as money on the risk of a bike that may never be fixed, in the hope of getting, at best a bike thats cost you more than its worth, to do less than you hope.
Here and now, you are out of pocket £40..... breaking what you got, parting out the bits on e-bay would get you that back probably twice over. So you are, at this moment for no effort possibly 'up' on the deal.
Moment you lift a spanner to try salvaging the thing, you are going to be increasing your investment, and inordinately increasing risk of failure.... for a not so very wonderful chance of the bike you really want at the end....
Like I said... if you know enough about bikes to live with a chink. you probably wouldn't buy one!
But, if you have to learn the hard way.... and it CAN be a fun way to learn... got to give you that... and chucking money away messing with inert bits of metal in your back garden has to be far more productive, possitive and laudible than hanging around street-corners drinking cheap cider or dropping a tab and trying to get into night-clubs.......
BUT.... think hard on what I've said.
If you want to do this as a project; its NEVER going to be a 'great-bike' certainly not to any-one but you, for the achievement of turning a wreck into a runner....
Its highly unlikely to be briliantly cost effective compared to saving and buying bike to do the job....
Aproached the wrong way, with the wrong or untenable goals, it is unlikely to even happen, and still cost you a lot of money to learn that.
Aproached the right way, you COULD get yourself a reletively cheap useful little run-about.... but only if you keep your head screwed, follow the book, and stick to 'fixing' it, without letting daft ideas about style ort performance take you off in a different and unproductive direction.
OR.... you accept the wisdom.... if you knew enough about bikes to live with a chinky, you wouldn't have bought it.... and flog on, or part out, and cut your losses before you suffer any!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| mentalboy |
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mentalboy
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| kramdra |
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kramdra
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| Posted: 22:46 - 13 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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no. a 20 year old cg will have:
50,000 miles
Two worn out brake drums, that *if* mot standards were any good, would not pass.
Engine will use some oil, be noisey as fuck, and have no rev counter.
The electrics will be rotten and bodged. Points ignition with a shit underpowered generator and rubbish headlight.
The centrestand pivot holes would be ovals so that both wheels always touch the ground.
It will have dents, minor rust, cracked plastics and shit paint.
For a rough idea of what has been bought:
https://www.stoewer-quad.de/WebRoot/Store7/Shops/61427058/48E0/DF86/118E/A687/8C4E/C0A8/28BD/29E6/xy125gy5-Orange_007-s-1024.jpg
My experince with chinese bikes is this:
Electrics are good, proper connectors, good wiring. May have rev counter, gear indicator, and fuel gage, some of which which may work, but thats as good as not having them in the first place.
Disk brakes. Work well when assembled correctly 
Engine is no better than a CG, not noticably slower 
Frame seems solid. Id like to put a 250 in mine.
Keep it, get the engine fixed if you have time, it'll be ok for a learner bike. |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 17:45 - 14 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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| kramdra wrote: | no. a 20 year old cg will have:
50,000 miles
Two worn out brake drums, that *if* mot standards were any good, would not pass.
Engine will use some oil, be noisey as fuck, and have no rev counter.
The electrics will be rotten and bodged. Points ignition with a shit underpowered generator and rubbish headlight.
The centrestand pivot holes would be ovals so that both wheels always touch the ground.
It will have dents, minor rust, cracked plastics and shit paint.
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Not quite Kam.... 20yr old CG would be a 93 model? Think that would be into the 12v CDi ignition variants.. but other wise, yeah, might not be great shakes; But CG's are a mine field any way, and hugely over rated; and comparisons not really fair, becouse you cant say for sure that what he'd get would be a complete Dodo!
https://pictures2.autotrader.co.uk/imgser-uk/servlet/media?id=131098470
On auto-Trader, from a dealer, so probably 25% over priced, that;s up for a grand. Honda's CG powered dirt-bike. More susbstancial machine. Better built. In the part suppliers listings; has its own workshop manual, and easy to live with. There's about half a dozen on bike trader, all under £1500. If that's the sort of thing he wants, there's plenty about.
https://databikes.com/imgs/a/b/l/c/d/honda__city_fly_125_2010_2_lgw.jpg
More 'Super-Motard' and less loved is the SL125 City Fly. £750 ought to get one of them in useful condition. Again. In the catalogies. In the insurancer listings. Japanese build quality, and assurance. Again, feels 'more' of a motorbike, and is easy to live with.
Comparisons to either of those, rather then an ancient CG are less flattering to the Skyjet; and that's just two, alternatives, both real Honda's with the venerable push-rod engine. Go look at Suzuki DR's or Yamaha XT's, with OHC motors and a couple of extra ponies out the box, you get som much more bike for your money.
Its not that the Skyjet is a bad bike; its just not a particularly good one, and its not a bike worth investing too much into.
Not to say the projects not worth tackling... I do up old Super-Dreams..... which probably aren't the most likely of project bases either... but to make the project work for you and be a success, you have to be pretty damn realistic.
That Skyjet, even out the crate, isn't as nice or easy to live with as a Cityfly, so there HAS to be some saving grace for doing it, and only opportunity there is if it can be got to road more cheaply. and fixing up an old bike; costs and effort is much the same.
Nuts and bolts don't care whether they are holding together parts of a twenty five year old £100 MZ or a sixty five year old £100,000 Vincent.... the bolts are the same price and they take just the same time and effort to fit.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| kramdra |
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kramdra
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| Posted: 18:29 - 14 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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12v CDI or not it still has points based ignition timing and the shit single phase generator that goes with it. Its a minor improvement at best. It is the lowest cost bike to be made and the worst designed/build quality of all japanese bikes and yet its used so frequently as a recommendation
Shineray != skyjet |
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