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T0MMY
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 Posted: 20:20 - 27 Mar 2013  Post subject: |
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| ThoughtControl wrote: |
That is possibly another classic convenient mistranslation, rather like the Ahmadinejad one, where, "The regime occupying Jerusalem should vanish from the pages of time" becomes "Israel should be wiped off the map", though maybe not as drastic 
Ausrottung can also be used to mean uprooting, which would indicate deportation or removal, which would make as much sense. |
Interesting...I had read previously that this was a common bit of misrepresentation of evidence employed by revisionists and it's so pitifully easy to get to the bottom of that I'm a little disappointed you have it in your armoury. Apparently there is not much question over what the word means when applied to people...but when killing weeds it can mean pulling them up, as that's what kills them 
The online dictionaries seem to think it unequivocaly means "to kill" which when referring to plants could indeed mean to uproot but that's a bit of a stretch when referring to people. Of course if it can be used like that it would be right, outside of talking about jews during the war? Any instances of the word being used to mean deportation of people you can find?
https://www.dict.cc/?s=ausrotten
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/german-english/ausrotten?showCookiePolicy=true
https://www.wordreference.com/deen/ausrotten
https://en.pons.eu/dict/search/results/?q=ausrotten&l=deen&in=&lf=de
https://www.ego4u.com/en/dictionary
https://dictionary.reverso.net/german-english/ausrotten/forced
But obviously don't take my word for it...do some research for yourself, away from biased sources of either side, and see if any German speaker would possibly think that the word "ausrotten" when referring to people could possibly mean anything other than killing them. Also see if native German speaking holocaust deniers use this same claim...presumably they would if they thought it had any merit.
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| Posted: 20:55 - 27 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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You'll no doubt attack the man, and not his case, which is quite funny, because if you go to his site, he recommends reading the Nuremburg transcripts IN GERMAN, since it's better than the English translations.
USE OF AUSROTTUNG IN GERMAN DOCUMENTS
[posted on alt.revisionism on January 17, 1998 by Carlos Porter]
I have made a bit of a study of the use of the verb "ausrotten" in the German original of The Decline of the West, by Oswald Spengler (Deutsche Taschenbuch Verlag, Münich). As you know, the book was finished in 1922, and published in 1923.
"Ausrotten" appears to be a fairly unusual verb in German.
Spengler uses the verb "vernichten" (to exterminate or destroy) many times, but the verb "ausrotten" (to exterminate or destroy) occurs only 5 times, on pages 932, 1050, and 1066.
On pp. 1050 and 1066 it is used to mean physical extermination or killing.
On p. 932 it is used purely figuratively. The sentence is: "In der Zerstörung von Sybaris durch Kroton, der sicherlich nur als Höhepunkt eines wilden Religionskrieges in der geschichtlichen Erinnerung haften blieb, entlud sich derselbe Haß, der auch in Karl I von England und seinen fröhlichen Kavalieren nicht nur eine Irrlehre, sondern auch die weltliche Gesinnung ausrotten wollte."
Translation:
"The destruction of Sybaris by Croton, which certainly remained in
historical memory as simply the climax of a savage war of religion, was an explosion of the same hatred which also wished to extirpate, in Charles I of England, not only a false doctrine, but a worldly way of thinking."
If "ausrotten" means to "exterminate", one can exterminate a king and his cavaliers, but not a "false doctrine" and a "worldly way of thinking". Did Oliver Cromwell erect gas chambers to exterminate the king and his cavaliers? Or was he merely content with a social and religious revolution?
Yours faithfully,
Carlos W. Porter
17 January 1998
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| Posted: 21:03 - 27 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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Going back to Gerstein's confession and alleged contacting others, you are aware of the case of Henri Roques, a friend of Rassinier, who did a textual criticism of the Gerstein Report, as a PhD thesis in Nantes in the mid 80's. The conclusion of the thesis was that the Gerstein confession was worthless, that there where 6 versions, 3 authentic, 3 not, and that the various versions had been, misused, altered and "elaborated" upon, by various authors such as Gilbert, Friedlander etc, while the nonsense ignored, such as SS men making Jews march upstairs to fall to their death in a blast furnace, and dimensions and numbers changed to make it seem more believable.
Roques tried to get a balanced jury of 3 professors, but known exterminationists would have nothing to do with it.
| Quote: | At the beginning of 1985, I requested the Paris professor to withdraw and with much delight I accepted the offer of a courageous professor of the University of Nantes to become my new director of studies for the thesis. The jury was then rapidly formed. It is a pleasure for me to give you the names of the members of this panel. They are:
Professor Jean-Claude Riviäre, who teaches literature at the University of Nantes;
Professor Jean-Paul Allard, who teaches German language and literature at the University of Lyon-III;
Professor Pierre Zind, who teaches modern history at the University of Lyon-II.
The oral argument of my thesis took place on June 15, 1985, in full accordance with all the established regulations.
In the autumn of 1985, a communique was sent to the press and to a certain number of historians to inform them of the success of my thesis and of my duly being awarded a doctorate for research, in the Faculty of Letters. With the exception of some brief reports in some friendly newspapers, a great silence supervened until April 1986. On April 18,1986 (the date is worth noting), a letter was sent to me by the University of Nantes informing me that the certificate of my diploma was at my disposal; the letter suggested either that I should go personally to collect it or that I should send the small sum of money required so that the diploma could be mailed. My mind and my conscience both being quite untroubled, I did not make the journey to Nantes. Now, to be sure, I regret my decision, because the diploma would then have been handed to me and I could have shown it to you today. |
| Quote: | About the twenty-fourth of April, that is to say some days later, Professor Jean-Claude Riviäre telephoned me to tell me of his consternation the issue of Le Monde juif [The Jewish World] for the first quarter of 1986 had just been profusely distributed at the University of Nantes, principally by dropping free copies into the postboxes of the teaching staff and other key personnel. This issue contained a lengthy article by Georges Wellers, who is the editor of Le Monde juif and, at the same time, a principal member of the managing committee of the Center for Jewish Documentation in Paris. The Wellers article did not address itself properly to the issues raised in my thesis: academically, or historically, it was insignificant. But it was a well-calculated and quite persuasive propaganda attack; and we have to bear in mind that the vast majority of the persons who read it -- in all innocence -- had not read my thesis, which was then unpublished, and were thus unaware of the basic facts. |
| Quote: | So, to give the Devil his due -- or rather, in this case Georges Welters -- his article was a clever and well-planned propaganda effort. The primary purpose, obviously, was not to refute my thesis on matters of fact or interpretation but to embarrass the University: and, in this context, it succeeded. From this issue of Le Monde juif, the scandal of the Roques Affair exploded, though for a further three weeks the scandal was confined to the region of Nantes. The scandal of the Roques Affair reached Paris and the whole of France on May 22-23, 1986.
One evening, a so-called debate was organized, during a peak listening period, on a major radio channel. In the guise of a debate, it was rather more an attempt at a lynching party. I had beside me my friend and lawyer Maitre Eric Delcroix thus, we were two, confronting six adversaries who, for the most part, were experienced in radio phone-in debates. In the course of the broadcast two Ministers, one of whom, Alain Devaquet, was the Minister of Research and Higher Education, intervened by telephone. Madame Simone Veil, a member of the European Parliament and a former president of that institution, also a former deportee to Auschwitz, likewise intervened. Maitre Delcroix and I came out of this pre-arranged ambush fairly well; our adversaries lost their self-control to the extent of offering us insults.
The following day, the twenty-fourth of May, all the national press was writing of the "affair," often on the front page. On the twenty-eighth of May a demonstration was held in Paris in front of the Jewish Memorial, with the participation of several government ministers and other political personalities.. On the same day, the affair was discussed with indignation at the National Assembly in Paris, as well as the Knesset in Jerusalem. On the thirtieth of May, several persons reputed to be historians met together in front of the press at the Insfftute of Modern History, in order to declare my thesis completely invalid." This round table was composed entirely of Exterminationist theoreticians This is the first occasion in the history of French universities that a thesis accepted by a properly constituted university jury was then rejected by a sort of extra-mural and self-appointed anti-jury, not qualified by any sort of university authority and, moreover, in the absence of the doctoral candidate! For what reason did these learned critics believe it was not necessary to invite me to be present to defend my thesis? It is obvious that they had no wish to hear me cite the irrefutable fact in my favor, namely, the palpable unreliability of Gerstein's evidence. |
This is going to turn into a massive copypasta. Instead read of the disgraceful affair here, taken from his presentation at the Eighth International Revisionist Conference.
https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p--5_Roques.html
"But he's a Nazi". No, he was a mate of Rassinier, who was a free thinking socialist, former communist, inmate of Buchenwald.
He had nothing to lose, since he was retired from business, and the PhD was "for fun". As can be seen in the case of the Swiss teacher, you question the big H, you're gone from your job.
The case also firmly demonstrates the power of the Jewish lobby to pressure government and academia where necessary, as well as the resistance within academia itself, to squash any fresh research or debate that thinks out the box. Given this, and the activities of left wing activists, what historian or researcher would dare question the holocaust, if they were even aware of any problems and inconsistencies in the official story?
TL DR;
Dude does PhD thesis doubting Gerstein Report Versions, and subsequent elaborations and fabrications
After difficulty gets told he's been awarded PhD
Jewish Press and lobby use pressure and tactics to "ad hom" him in academia.
They bring in the big guns from government and European parliament to bring pressure on the university, alleged to have been "a racist"
The university annuls PhD award, due to pressure, on a technicality, an alleged forged signature
Pressure brought to bear on others, eg a Swiss teacher removed from her position, after a campaign and influence of the Grand Rabbi of Lausanne
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| Posted: 21:14 - 27 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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| ThoughtControl wrote: | You'll no doubt attack the man, and not his case, which is quite funny, because if you go to his site, he recommends reading the Nuremburg transcripts IN GERMAN, since it's better than the English translations.
USE OF AUSROTTUNG IN GERMAN DOCUMENTS
[posted on alt.revisionism on January 17, 1998 by Carlos Porter]
I have made a bit of a study of the use of the verb "ausrotten" in the German original of The Decline of the West, by Oswald Spengler (Deutsche Taschenbuch Verlag, Münich). As you know, the book was finished in 1922, and published in 1923.
"Ausrotten" appears to be a fairly unusual verb in German.
Spengler uses the verb "vernichten" (to exterminate or destroy) many times, but the verb "ausrotten" (to exterminate or destroy) occurs only 5 times, on pages 932, 1050, and 1066.
On pp. 1050 and 1066 it is used to mean physical extermination or killing.
On p. 932 it is used purely figuratively. The sentence is: "In der Zerstörung von Sybaris durch Kroton, der sicherlich nur als Höhepunkt eines wilden Religionskrieges in der geschichtlichen Erinnerung haften blieb, entlud sich derselbe Haß, der auch in Karl I von England und seinen fröhlichen Kavalieren nicht nur eine Irrlehre, sondern auch die weltliche Gesinnung ausrotten wollte."
Translation:
"The destruction of Sybaris by Croton, which certainly remained in
historical memory as simply the climax of a savage war of religion, was an explosion of the same hatred which also wished to extirpate, in Charles I of England, not only a false doctrine, but a worldly way of thinking."
If "ausrotten" means to "exterminate", one can exterminate a king and his cavaliers, but not a "false doctrine" and a "worldly way of thinking". Did Oliver Cromwell erect gas chambers to exterminate the king and his cavaliers? Or was he merely content with a social and religious revolution?
Yours faithfully,
Carlos W. Porter
17 January 1998 |
I actually read that during my googlings. When applying a word that means effectively "eradicate", then yes, referring to an idea, you would not mean killing it in the physical sense you can kill an animal. How are we to take it when referring to Jews though? Had he said "Judaism" then fine but when would you ever refer to deporting people as eradicating them?
Here's another translation from Muret-Sander which is clearer on use in different forms:-
| Quote: |
ausrotten: I. 1. (Unkraut [weeds] etc.) uproot, tear (od. pull) (s.th.) up by the roots, root (s.th.) up.
2. (Volk [a people], Rasse [race], etc.) exterminate, wipe out, extirpate: diese Krankheit rottete die ganze Bevölkerung aus this disease wiped out the entire population; die Urbevölkerung des Landes wurde ausgerottet the native population of the country was exterminated (od. killed off); etwas mit Stumpf und Stiel ausrotten auch fig. to destroy s.th. root and branch.
3. (Tiere [animals]) extirpate.
4. (Übel [evils] etc) eradicate, stamp out, root out, extirpate, exterminate: ein Vorurteil ausrotten to eradicate a prejudice; eine Krankheit ausrotten to stamp (od. wipe) out a disease; dieses Übel muß man mit der Wurzel ausrotten this evil must be uprooted; diese Unsitte ist nich auszurotten this bad habit is ineradicable.
[...]
Ausrottung: 1. cf. Ausrotten.
2. (eines Volkes [of a people], einer Rasse [of a race] etc) extermination, extirpation: systematische Ausrottung von Völkern [systematic Ausrottung of a people] (od. eines Volkes [of a people]) genocide.
3. (von Tieren [animals]) extirpation.
4. fig. eradication, extermination, extirpation.
5. med. (eines Tumors [of a tumor] etc) extirpation, eradication. |
Seems pretty clear on how to use the word when referring to people.
I think you're better off arguing that he was being dramatic amd didn't literally mean it than arguing that the word was never intended to suggest harm to the jewish people.
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Posted: 22:21 - 27 Mar 2013  Post subject: |
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If you've read what I've posted, apart from trying to pick nits here and there from the past few pages of this thread, you'll note that I argue that the mass extermination was illogical in the context of the labour shortage of the Nazi state.
The gassings were a fiction. Carbon Monoxide from the claimed method was illogical and improbable. The witnesses are completely unreliable, whether outright emotional nonsense or coerced confessions. There is vast evidence of a black propaganda campaign, consisting of nonsensical killing methods and objects which have since been dropped. These were all accepted as gospel at Nuremburg and later trials, and have since fallen down the memory hole. Nuremburg was blatantly a show trial, as were the others. Post war propaganda was essential to keep the Germans subdued, using to a massive guilt complex of what they are alleged to have done.
I'm quite aware that you can argue about translation all day and go round in circles for pages and pages of utter crap, which is probably what you enjoy, as can be seen from your past Hetzer "debates".
I argue that looking at the larger picture, from a point of logic, in the context of logistics and German WW2 production necessities, the claimed extermination doesn't make any sense. Given nonsensical "survivor testimony" and illogical killing methods, and a background of massive black propaganda absurd claims, the story appears to be completely false.
No doubt further "quick google"s will bring you up further 'he said she said's for your argument.
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| Posted: 22:55 - 27 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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Pick nits here and there? I think discerning the meaning of Goebbel's diaries is pretty important actually.
The labour shortage argument is covered...Goebbels himself said they need 40% to work, 60% to be liquidated. Nobody said they didn't use Jews for work too anyway 
I also think Himmler's speech is pretty important, along with the letters and documents talking about things like the gas vans and the Einsatzgruppen. You haven't dealt with this at all.
You say the carbon monoxide method was improbable...show me evidence it wasn't done as there is evidence that it was.
You continuously bring up the outlandish parts of a few of the eye witness testimonies but ignore the rational ones.
You say Nuremberg was a show trial and the statements were coerced yet you totally ignored my request to show me one witness who later said they were coerced and haven't shown me any evidence of coercion. In this very thread we've seen an example of when statements were coerced and the first thing the accused parties did when they could was tell the world they had been coerced!
In fact, read through your summary and show me one thing you've said that is in any way evidence that this didn't happen. You state it is improbable, you state it is impractical, you state problems with a very few cherry picked witness statements...that is literally it!
To put it another way, imagine us in a court of law...I put forward, for one example, the letters mentioning gassing of Jews in the gas vans. Your response..."that is illogical and improbable". It doesn't meet the evidence at all does it...I think the judge would rule in my favour
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| Posted: 23:47 - 27 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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This is a chart from Wikipedia showing deportations to Treblinka - it notes spikes as 'Liquidations' of areas - i.e. people being cleared from those areas and sent to the camp (for whatever end).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Treblinka_graph_pt_1.png
EDIT - although the final note suggests a use of 'liquidate' to mean exterminating/murdering. Who knows what to believe? |
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Posted: 23:57 - 27 Mar 2013  Post subject: |
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To counter with things you don't answer (since 3 thousand word answers to a post bot on crack that discounts anything is a total waste of time and space):
Elie Wiesel: Why does Night not mention gas chambers, only crematoria and burning pits? (Original 1958, French and English, not the German translation)
Why does Elie Wiesel state that he and his father chose to be "evacuated with the Germans" since it's a "Death camp". They could have stayed to be liberated by the Russians.
Why were the countless numbers transferred to other camps and not exterminated there? There are survivors that have been through 7 camps, starting with Auschwitz. For an extermination program this is pretty poor.
Why are there people in Auschwitz hospital being treated for Typhus if they can be exterminated, since they're unable to work?
Why are there kids BORN in Auschwitz? Why are there ANY kids in any "Death" camp if it's an extermination program? (We have a witness at USC Shoah archive stating she was painting Snow white pictures on the kids barracks FFS "But she's a witness", says the crackhead)
Why do the Bletchley Park decrypts of concentration camp radio traffic show no gassing victims, but state shootings and hangings, but entries such as "Typhus dominate the camp"? It's coded and the Germans have no idea the Brits have broken the code. Even Prof Hinsley states this in his book on British Intelligence in WW2.
Why are the Germans wasting diesel fuel that could power tanks on powering the same to kill and cremate Jews?
Their civilian transport was converted to Wood Gas because petroleum resources were few. Wood gasifiers are the cheapest and most efficient way of producing Carbon Monoxide. So why are they pissing about with diesel engines when they are spending time on research projects to produce petroleum products from coal that they have in huge quantities?
Why no mention of Tabun and Sarin? It's an extermination program. We have claims of all sorts of "medical experiments" yet nothing on any mass gassings using either? Don't give me Zyklon was more practical. They allege mass extermination, and this is the perfect weapon. The military always loves testing out new toys in live tests, and noting accuracy, kill ratios, effective ranges and times etc. They've got the perfect supply of victims. You could do the trials miles from anywhere in some really obscure location. The Brits had to do tests on their own troops for all their new toys.
Why weren't the Hungarian Jews simply taken to the train shed at Budapest and gassed their an entire train in one go? It's designed as a killing shed (for lice). Why was this shed not duplicated as an HCN killing tool in the extermination program? It's perfect. You don't even have to get them off the train.
Why are they pissing around with single person ovens in a mass extermination program?
and countless others to just do "a quick google"
You'll discount them all with single word or sentence answers anyway. You've got your conclusion, now all you've got to do is fit the evidence around it and simply dismiss anything that doesn't fit. That's the way mainstream research works innit?
Funny that you mention court. Zundel managed to get off twice, despite having an extremely hostile judge (read Faurisson's account). No doubt you've get lots of support ($$$) and favourable expert witnesses. No judge would give a fair trial in any case.
You don't even state what your case is. Whatever the current version of events is, despite never having looked at them.
Like all "skeptics", you're in reality a believer. Whatever the current gospel is, you're happy to sing along, since you've never questioned a thing in your life or thought outside the box. Defender of the faith, whatever the ruling faith is. As long as you get to play with your toys you're happy. And yep that's an ad hom, but unfortunately it's the truth.
To randomers just browsing the thread who don't know either way:
These are all questions that to me make no sense within the conventional narrative. I'm not arguing that Nazi Germany was great, I'm stating that the conventional story has holes that you can't plug with airtight satisfaction.
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Last edited by ThoughtControl on 00:54 - 28 Mar 2013; edited 4 times in total |
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| Posted: 00:05 - 28 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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You'd probably find that the alleged victims were deported to Minsk and similar conquered territories, since that's what they intended to do. They shut it down in 1943 because the Germans post-Stalingrad were losing territory in the East, so the deportation program, or endlösung was no longer practical.
Using the above assumes that it was an extermination camp and that was a dead end. If this was a disinfection (delousing) transit camp prior to deportation then the above would still be the case.
Check out the stated occupations of those tried at Treblinka/Sobibor trials.
The vast majority are listed as "Male Nurse".
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| Posted: 04:20 - 28 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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While I'm in a fuck-tired but can't sleep facetous ( - unlike me innit?   ) mood and completely inspired by the Dog & Chips thread...
As the Nazi state is full of "Fred West, Harold Shipman, nut jobs, psychos," Ed Geins, as has been claimed both here and in the Nuremburg, and given that the Buchenwald atrocity sample table has pickled organs in bottles (probably pillaged from a hospital medical lab) as a part of the exhibit along with it's death mask and tattooed skin, and human skin lampshades, gloves (pure Ed Gein, I'm surprised Ilse Koch's ghost didn't claim plagiarism), riding crops, books, soap, etc, etc, and then not forgetting the bear at Buchenwald Zoo that was fed on a diet of honey, jam and Jews...
My hypothesis is why didn't the Germans get around the Nazi state meat ration by feeding Jews (and other inmates, I'm an equal opportunity alleged hater) to Jews? They don't have to be healthy Jews either. Why cremate corpses wasting good coke or even good body fat (anyone remember the claimed scooping up buckets of human body fat from the burning pits in some holocaust literature?). You could make a good stew out of all this, and some soup out of the bones. It would keep your workforce (the 40% you want to keep alive) well fed. Why discriminate? You could feed them Gypsy Broth, queer todger on toast, some nice communist ribs with sauerkraut, Typhus and tits OGTFO, Jehovah's witness jellied babies, whatever tickles your fancy. Feed all the noses lips, eyes etc into a large grinder and make meat paste from it to go with the meagre bread ration at tea break or even for a nice cup of human Bovril.
Maybe some of our pure white master race would quite like the delicacies to be had, while they're wearing their human skin gloves and coats. I left out the poor lads on the U boats too. I bet they could do with a smoked Jew sausage to go along with their human hair socks they were desperate for that we've all read about in the Nuremburg documents. All this usable meat resource will result in absolutely no waste at all, bar a few bones that we can grind down into bone meal for blood and bone to fertilise the cabbage fields. The bone meal would provide a great calcium source for inclusion in flour etc, keeping those good Jewish labourers' bones at peak strength at Treblinka I or Plaszow quarry or the ones digging out the underground factories.
It just makes so much sense, since they're a bunch or Shipman, Jeffrey Dahmer-alike psychos (can't you just tell Gein and Dahmer are from pure bred Wisconsin German stock, it's in their Nazi psycho DNA I tell yer ), why are they wasting all this good food source?
Just sayin'*
* About the only modern teen/net-ism that gets on my tits to Retard Factor 9
While I'm hallucinating and riffing on this shit...
https://i.imgur.com/rXQA5ab.jpg
Karl Koch and son at Buchenwald Zoo, October 1939 (3 Photos probably taken by Ilse?)
Note the Jew-fed bear and the rhinoceros. The eagle for picking at Jew's bones is likely in the trees out of shot.
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Hetzer
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| Posted: 09:39 - 28 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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| T0MMY wrote: |
Here's another translation from Muret-Sander which is clearer on use in different forms:-
| Quote: |
ausrotten: I. 1. (Unkraut [weeds] etc.) uproot, tear (od. pull) (s.th.) up by the roots, root (s.th.) up.
2. (Volk [a people], Rasse [race], etc.) exterminate, wipe out, extirpate: diese Krankheit rottete die ganze Bevölkerung aus this disease wiped out the entire population; die Urbevölkerung des Landes wurde ausgerottet the native population of the country was exterminated (od. killed off); etwas mit Stumpf und Stiel ausrotten auch fig. to destroy s.th. root and branch.
3. (Tiere [animals]) extirpate.
4. (Übel [evils] etc) eradicate, stamp out, root out, extirpate, exterminate: ein Vorurteil ausrotten to eradicate a prejudice; eine Krankheit ausrotten to stamp (od. wipe) out a disease; dieses Übel muß man mit der Wurzel ausrotten this evil must be uprooted; diese Unsitte ist nich auszurotten this bad habit is ineradicable.
[...]
Ausrottung: 1. cf. Ausrotten.
2. (eines Volkes [of a people], einer Rasse [of a race] etc) extermination, extirpation: systematische Ausrottung von Völkern [systematic Ausrottung of a people] (od. eines Volkes [of a people]) genocide.
3. (von Tieren [animals]) extirpation.
4. fig. eradication, extermination, extirpation.
5. med. (eines Tumors [of a tumor] etc) extirpation, eradication. |
Seems pretty clear on how to use the word when referring to people.
I think you're better off arguing that he was being dramatic amd didn't literally mean it than arguing that the word was never intended to suggest harm to the jewish people. |
I do believe you've shot down your own argument. If Goebbels used the word "jew" as a synonym for the word "evil" (as he most certainly often did) the term "Ausrotten" per your quoted text does mean only to "eradicate, stamp out" etc.
And I'll say it again; if the nazis had been involved in a policy of mass gassings as a means to implement a deliberate genocide of the jews there is no way in hell that would not have been writ large, many times, in Goebbel's diary. It's not a small inconsequential detail, it is an undertaking so huge, so massive, so appalling that it is inconceivable he would not have known about it and been very much consumed by it.
Any piffle to the contrary is beyond laughable. Nothing could be more blatantly obvious or understandable.
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| T0MMY |
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T0MMY
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| Posted: 19:17 - 28 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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TC - I'm still not sure where you've questioned the evidence I've asked about. There's evidence that gas vans were used so merely saying it would be illogical (not that I'm even sure I agree with that) doesn't really answer it. If I have evidence that someone murdered their victim in a certain way what kind of defence would it be to say there's a better way so they can't have done it at all You have to answer the evidence.
Please give me an answer about the documents I've mentioned numerous times. At the very least you could just say they're forgeries surely? I don't understand why you're evading this if you want to get to the truth of the matter rather than just reinforce what you already believe.
| Hetzer wrote: |
I do believe you've shot down your own argument. If Goebbels used the word "jew" as a synonym for the word "evil" (as he most certainly often did) the term "Ausrotten" per your quoted text does mean only to "eradicate, stamp out" etc.
And I'll say it again; if the nazis had been involved in a policy of mass gassings as a means to implement a deliberate genocide of the jews there is no way in hell that would not have been writ large, many times, in Goebbel's diary. It's not a small inconsequential detail, it is an undertaking so huge, so massive, so appalling that it is inconceivable he would not have known about it and been very much consumed by it.
Any piffle to the contrary is beyond laughable. Nothing could be more blatantly obvious or understandable. |
Surely he would use "Judaism" or Jewery rather than "Jews". If someone says they will exterminate Jews I think that is pretty clear. Even if he was talking about Judaism as an idea, how does just moving it around eradicate it?
You can argue that from your opinion as a non-german speaker but more telling is the fact that apparently, this particular argument is not used by german revisionists to german speaking audiences because they would all know it's bollocks. The meaning is apparently pretty unequivocal.
I also still wonder why merely deporting or detaining Jews was considered a position from which there was no going back, as he said?
As for why it's not mentioned more often or more explicitly, it doesn't surprise me at all that Goebbel's didn't talk clearly at length about something that he knew would damage the reputation of his country for centuries to come if his diaries were to come out as he must surely have known might happen (as indeed it did).
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T0MMY
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| Posted: 20:36 - 28 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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I certainly would read them... I've been asking for them for several pages now
Can you not see my point here? I present the bits of evidence that I think are compelling and you reply with, for example, entire page posts about a specific witness testimony with flaws. It doesn't meet the question at all. Similarly, I say, "explain this piece of evidence" and you say "why didn't they use the Jews for meat?" it doesn't actually counter the evidence right? That particular one is also pitifully easy to explain 
I'll spell out some bits of evidence from that site G posted that I feel require an explanation, all of which is allegedly documented, not just testimony (if you need the source of each let me know but I guess you've encountered them before):-
These letters about the gas vans...
| Quote: |
If it has rained for instance for only one half hour, the van cannot be used because it simply skids away. It can only be used in absolutely dry weather. It is only a question now whether the van can only be used standing at the place of execution. First the van has to be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. ...
The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully. |
| Quote: | Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three vans, without any faults occurring in the vehicles. ...
The normal capacity of the vans is nine to ten per square meter. The capacity of the larger special Saurer vans is not so great. The problem is not one of overloading but of off-road maneuverability on all terrains, which is severely diminished in this van. It would appear that a reduction in the cargo area is necessary. This can be achieved by shortening the compartment by about one meter. The problem cannot be solved by merely reducing the number of subject treated, as has been done so far. For in this case a longer running time is required, as the empty space also needs to be filled with CO [the poison exhaust gas]. ...
Greater protection is needed for the lighting system. The grille should cover the lamps high enough up to make it impossible to break the bulbs. It seems that these lamps are hardly ever turned on, so the users have suggested that they could be done away with. Experience shows, however, that when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door. The reason for this is that when it becomes dark inside, the load rushes toward what little light remains. This hampers the locking of the door. It has also been noticed that the noise provoked by the locking of the door is linked to the fear aroused by the darkness. |
This memo from Auschwitz...
| Quote: |
We take this occasion to refer to another order of March 6, 1943, for the delivery of a gas door 100/192 for Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III, Bw 30a, which is to be built in the manner and according to the same measure as the cellar door of the opposite Krema II, with peep hole of double 8 millimeter glass encased in rubber. This order is to be viewed as especially urgent.... |
This quote from Himmler's speech...
| Quote: | I refer now to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. This is one of those things that is easily said: "the Jewish people are being exterminated," says every Party member, "quite true, it's part of our plans, the elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it." |
This court transcipt from a German court during the war...
| Quote: | The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take part in the extermination of Jewry himself. |
In addition:-
The inventory requiring a few showers and a gas tight door.
The 20ft deep pile of ash found at Treblinka.
Internal memos about the crematorium capacities which seem to both disagree with the revisionist assertion and be far too great to account for natural deaths.
Finally one that is testimony but from a man long after the war had finished who was not under threat of prosecution for any war crime. How was Hans Munch coerced to say these things:-
| Quote: | Interviewer: Isn't the ideology of extermination contrary to a doctor's ethical values?
Münch: Yes, absolutely. There is no discussion. But I lived in that environment, and I tried in every possible way to avoid accepting it, but I had to live with it. What else could I have done? And I wasn't confronted with it directly until the order came that I and my superior and another one had to take part in the exterminations since the camp's doctors were overloaded and couldn't cope with it.
Interviewer: I must ask something. Doubters claim that "special treatment" could mean anything. It didn't have to be extermination.
Münch: "Special treatment" in the terminology of the concentration camp means physical extermination. If it was a question of more than a few people, where nothing else than gassing them was worthwhile, they were gassed.
Interviewer: "Special treatment" was gassing?
Münch: Yes, absolutely. |
EDIT: One other thing...I read that much of the documentation relating to the camps was destroyed by the Germans before the end of the war which is why there isn't a lot more. If it is true...why did they do that?
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Hetzer
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| Posted: 10:27 - 29 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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| T0MMY wrote: | TC - I'm still not sure where you've questioned the evidence I've asked about. There's evidence that gas vans were used so merely saying it would be illogical (not that I'm even sure I agree with that) doesn't really answer it. If I have evidence that someone murdered their victim in a certain way what kind of defence would it be to say there's a better way so they can't have done it at all You have to answer the evidence.
Please give me an answer about the documents I've mentioned numerous times. At the very least you could just say they're forgeries surely? I don't understand why you're evading this if you want to get to the truth of the matter rather than just reinforce what you already believe.
| Hetzer wrote: |
I do believe you've shot down your own argument. If Goebbels used the word "jew" as a synonym for the word "evil" (as he most certainly often did) the term "Ausrotten" per your quoted text does mean only to "eradicate, stamp out" etc.
And I'll say it again; if the nazis had been involved in a policy of mass gassings as a means to implement a deliberate genocide of the jews there is no way in hell that would not have been writ large, many times, in Goebbel's diary. It's not a small inconsequential detail, it is an undertaking so huge, so massive, so appalling that it is inconceivable he would not have known about it and been very much consumed by it.
Any piffle to the contrary is beyond laughable. Nothing could be more blatantly obvious or understandable. |
Surely he would use "Judaism" or Jewery rather than "Jews". If someone says they will exterminate Jews I think that is pretty clear. Even if he was talking about Judaism as an idea, how does just moving it around eradicate it?
You can argue that from your opinion as a non-german speaker but more telling is the fact that apparently, this particular argument is not used by german revisionists to german speaking audiences because they would all know it's bollocks. The meaning is apparently pretty unequivocal.
I also still wonder why merely deporting or detaining Jews was considered a position from which there was no going back, as he said?
As for why it's not mentioned more often or more explicitly, it doesn't surprise me at all that Goebbel's didn't talk clearly at length about something that he knew would damage the reputation of his country for centuries to come if his diaries were to come out as he must surely have known might happen (as indeed it did). |
Is that it? A bunch of fluff and pap?
If nothing else, this particular subject has more clearly illustrated how you think and argue. You truly are incapable of coherent analysis and thought. I'm pretty mu... 
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T0MMY
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| Posted: 11:21 - 29 Mar 2013 Post subject: |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 12 years, 349 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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