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Another take on benefit cuts...

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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 10:07 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Another take on benefit cuts... Reply with quote

A fairly well written piece that I'm sure will divide opinion on here.

https://www.disgracejones.co.uk/would-i-survive-the-left-wing-death-squads/

Not sure I agree with it myself and this quote is just to put the cat amongst the pigeons:

Quote:
When I hear people complaining about how little they have, how the government should give them more I am sorry for them. They have not found their source of power. They are not connected to their potential and they have handed over all responsibility for their own future to the state.

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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 10:31 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...and they have handed over all responsibility for their own future to the state.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

"They have not found their source of power". Laughing Yeah, because working in some shithole office or factory, rubber-stamping documents or machine-stamping widgits, for a weekly pittance, and having most of that robbed off you in taxes, bills and prices...that's POWAH! Innit. There's your masculine emancipation right there. FEEL THE PRIDE!

I'll tell you where the true power is...it's out in the field, hunting your next meal with whatever weapon you've been able to craft. But the sociopathic scum didn't like that, there was no way to get to sit on their fat arses, owning everything while doing nothing, so they took it all away and replaced it with modern society. Oh yeah, you can be cured of all sorts of horrible diseases and shit now. Most of which are caused by modern living. So you can be sent back to the office/factory.

Ain't modern life a glorious thing? Wake up in the morning, first thought that comes into your mind..."Got to pay that bill...how much money's left in the account...oh god..."

Yeah, source of power. Please, fucking spare us that trash. Sick
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 11:19 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hetzer wrote:
Ain't modern life a glorious thing? Wake up in the morning, first thought that comes into your mind..."Got to pay that bill...how much money's left in the account...oh god..."


Maybe if you're a spendthrift.

I don't really worry about money at all. It's pretty basic, really. You make a conscious decision to spend less than you earn.

The only 'worry' then, is having a slightly lower standard of living than you perhaps could have if you sailed closer to the wind.

I'd say the lack of stress more than makes up for that.
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 11:26 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds to me like she is such an indoctrinated sheep that when she was given her "freedom" she didn't know what to do with it. So she was much more happy when she was back in the system, back to the old routine, go to work, get paid fuck all and go without food and heating because thats the way the system works and you just have to fall in line with the rest. I don't see power there, and I'd take no pride in having to survive on £30 shopping a week for an entire family.

She says she was a better person because of it, I think it probably just gave her the kick up the arse she needed. Much like when I go to the gym and train on my own, I don't ever push myself as hard as when I have one of the trainers beasting and screaming at me. In the same sense, with the knowledge that the bills were getting paid, she had no motivation to do much, since she felt she had all the time in the world, yet when there was the possiblity the kids would starve that day, she got into gear, and the rest of the parental responsbilities fell in line with it.

To me, it seems she just didn't know how to do anything constructive with her time, and because her brothers a cretin, she feels she on a position to tar everyone with the same brush.

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Derivative
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PostPosted: 11:30 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhostRider wrote:
go to work, get paid fuck all and go without food and heating


Eh?

Those statements aren't compatible.

Unless by 'work' you mean 10 hours a week, and by 'without food' you mean not able to buy takeaways three times a week.

The hyperbole people use when referring to 'low' pay really astounds me. I get that NMW doesn't give you a life of luxury (yeah, it's the minimum wage, duh), especially when people often are on 25 hour weeks or similar, but to suggest people 'go without food' is utter nonsense. I have kilograms and kilograms of pasta, rice, tinned vegetables, bits and bobs. Weeks, months worth. The lot probably cost me less than 20 quid. Less than four hours' wages. You can go to Tesco now and buy it, no reductions, nothing special.
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 11:44 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
GhostRider wrote:
go to work, get paid fuck all and go without food and heating


Eh?

Those statements aren't compatible.

Unless by 'work' you mean 10 hours a week, and by 'without food' you mean not able to buy takeaways three times a week.


Fuck all after tax, or might as well be. Minimum wage works out to what, £4.80? So we're talking £768 disposable after tax. Pay your rent, water, electric, gas, and whatevers left you get to eat. And thats about it.

And what have you got to entertain yourself with? Fuck all. Its all very well to say "well you'll have to go without" "read a book" with a fucking smirk on your face, but the jokes on them when people instead say "well, how about fuck that, I'll go on benefits, and get myself a nice plasma, iphone 4, bills paid, loooverly".

People dont like to spend 40 hours a week at work with the reward being staring at the walls until the next day of work comes along. Compare us to Africa all you like, its wont change the majority thinking that whats the point in doing that for nothing, no joy or pleasure or entertainment, distractions, when you can just as easily do nothing and have far more.

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panrider_uk
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PostPosted: 12:18 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhostRider wrote:
Derivative wrote:


Eh?

Those statements aren't compatible.

Unless by 'work' you mean 10 hours a week, and by 'without food' you mean not able to buy takeaways three times a week.


Fuck all after tax, or might as well be. Minimum wage works out to what, £4.80? So we're talking £768 disposable after tax. Pay your rent, water, electric, gas, and whatevers left you get to eat. And thats about it.

And what have you got to entertain yourself with? Fuck all. Its all very well to say "well you'll have to go without" "read a book" with a fucking smirk on your face, but the jokes on them when people instead say "well, how about fuck that, I'll go on benefits, and get myself a nice plasma, iphone 4, bills paid, loooverly".

People dont like to spend 40 hours a week at work with the reward being staring at the walls until the next day of work comes along. Compare us to Africa all you like, its wont change the majority thinking that whats the point in doing that for nothing, no joy or pleasure or entertainment, distractions, when you can just as easily do nothing and have far more.

GhostRider


I think you'd struggle to pay any tax on £4.80/hr

Mark
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 12:24 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hetzer wrote:
Ain't modern life a glorious thing? Wake up in the morning, first thought that comes into your mind..."Got to pay that bill...how much money's left in the account...oh god..."


Seems somewhat easier than "Got to eat this winter, haven't seen a rabbit in days... oh god..."

GhostRider wrote:
Minimum wage works out to what, £4.80? So we're talking £768 disposable after tax. Pay your rent, water, electric, gas, and whatevers left you get to eat. And thats about it.


I love that shorttermist attitude - do you think you'll be stuck on minimum wage forever?
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 12:52 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

panrider_uk wrote:


I think you'd struggle to pay any tax on £4.80/hr

Mark


£4.80 after tax, minimum wage is £6.19.

Quote:
I love that shorttermist attitude - do you think you'll be stuck on minimum wage forever?


I dunno, I'm unfamiliar with the long term prospects of shelf stackers, data entry monkeys and general dogsbodys. Is a senior management position just around the corner for them then?

In any case, the OP is regarding this bint stating that benefits should be cut because it will give them the kick up the arse they need to get a job, on the sole basis that she decided she wanted to go back to work for her own good. Therefore, to iradicate the work shy, everyone should suffer. Now lets bear in mind that she just decided it wasn't for her, she didn;t undergo the same punishment she is saying should be dished out on others.

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Derivative
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PostPosted: 12:56 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhostRider wrote:
Fuck all after tax, or might as well be. Minimum wage works out to what, £4.80? So we're talking £768 disposable after tax. Pay your rent, water, electric, gas, and whatevers left you get to eat. And thats about it.


So you can eat and heat the house then, and it was just hyperbole earlier?

I'm not talking about 'Africa'. I just take issue with the oft-repeated claims of people skipping meals. It is a blatant lie.

Quote:
And what have you got to entertain yourself with? Fuck all. Its all very well to say "well you'll have to go without" "read a book" with a fucking smirk on your face, but the jokes on them when people instead say "well, how about fuck that, I'll go on benefits, and get myself a nice plasma, iphone 4, bills paid, loooverly".


You're equating having a plasma TV and iPhone with having money.

I'd suggest looking at the prices of those items.

I'd also suggest that those that are more well off generally don't want a huge plasma TV. They have more interesting things to do than spend 6+ hours in front of a glowing box, and so have a small set to watch the odd show.
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 13:11 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
GhostRider wrote:
Fuck all after tax, or might as well be. Minimum wage works out to what, £4.80? So we're talking £768 disposable after tax. Pay your rent, water, electric, gas, and whatevers left you get to eat. And thats about it.


So you can eat and heat the house then, and it was just hyperbole earlier?

I'm not talking about 'Africa'. I just take issue with the oft-repeated claims of people skipping meals. It is a blatant lie.

Quote:
And what have you got to entertain yourself with? Fuck all. Its all very well to say "well you'll have to go without" "read a book" with a fucking smirk on your face, but the jokes on them when people instead say "well, how about fuck that, I'll go on benefits, and get myself a nice plasma, iphone 4, bills paid, loooverly".


You're equating having a plasma TV and iPhone with having money.

I'd suggest looking at the prices of those items.

I'd also suggest that those that are more well off generally don't want a huge plasma TV. They have more interesting things to do than spend 6+ hours in front of a glowing box, and so have a small set to watch the odd show.


I'd suggest you haven't been in many rich peoples houses. I have, many many many of them, the kind where when I turn up in bike gear I actually don't want to go in, thinking I should go home and change into a suit to be more appropritely dressed. They all have big TVs, multiples of them actually, and far more. I'm sure they also have Jet-Skis, the yacht with which to go sailing on the weekends, nice 4x4 to go on nice long country drives on the weekend too. So yes they have plenty of better things to do with their time than watch TV I'm sure, but then they can afford it.

And yeah why wouldn't I equate having a big plasma TV and Iphone with having money? New iphone ~£500, 47" plasma TV ~£600, having £1100 to piss away on nice things such as those and not have to worry about it, yep I'd class that as having a decent amount of money, I've had friends who have had to use newspaper to wipe their arses, no iPhones in sight. Not quite sure what you sneering "Pfff you think thats money?" proves though.

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I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.
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Raffles
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PostPosted: 13:45 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of my job entails visiting peoples homes and I find that the lower down the social ladder, the bigger the television.
Those huge screens aren't referred to as ''council house tellys'' without good reason.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 14:24 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhostRider wrote:
I dunno, I'm unfamiliar with the long term prospects of shelf stackers, data entry monkeys and general dogsbodys. Is a senior management position just around the corner for them then?


Well,
shelf stacker->checkout-> food counter (transferable hygeine certs etc) or supervisor or a whole host of mid level positions
data entry again leads on to supervisor roles, customer facing roles, data management or mid level management.

It may not be senior management, but if you want that then go to uni. The loans are available to all. Even then you can expect to work yourself up the ladder.

Do you really expect to go from shelf stacker to CEO on your first appraisal?
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 14:35 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhostRider wrote:
I'd suggest you haven't been in many rich peoples houses


Sure. Obviously the really wealthy folk have this stuff just for a jolly.

I'm thinking more in the sort of 40k bracket. You can easily afford a plasma, but I'd think there are other things that are more worth it.

I'd rather have a 600 quid nicer bike/car/whatever.

Quote:
having £1100 to piss away on nice things such as those


It's not really 'pissing away' though.

For someone who lounges about the house all day as a 'stereotypical' bennie baby does, those are basically the two main items.

Most of the young guys I know that went straight on the dole out of school basically have a flash PC and monitor/TV, an Xbox, and that's about it in terms of big ticket items.

Hell, that's how I'd fly if I fancied spending my days on Call of Duty and similar. I wouldn't have any need for anything else. I did that in sixth form anyway. Bus to college, daft spec PC. Needs met.

A 4 grand bike costs more than a plasma, iphone, xbox, ps3, wii, laptop, Sky for a few years and a few more bits combined.

A grand that you basically spend once (alright, does a plasma TV last five years or more? I wouldn't know) really isn't a lot. Come on now.


Last edited by Derivative on 14:38 - 03 Apr 2013; edited 1 time in total
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 14:38 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

daemonoid wrote:
GhostRider wrote:
I dunno, I'm unfamiliar with the long term prospects of shelf stackers, data entry monkeys and general dogsbodys. Is a senior management position just around the corner for them then?


Well,
shelf stacker->checkout-> food counter (transferable hygeine certs etc) or supervisor or a whole host of mid level positions
data entry again leads on to supervisor roles, customer facing roles, data management or mid level management.

It may not be senior management, but if you want that then go to uni. The loans are available to all. Even then you can expect to work yourself up the ladder.

Do you really expect to go from shelf stacker to CEO on your first appraisal?


On paper it looks like a marvellous career progression plan, in practice the vacancies just aren't there. They aren't called dead-end jobs for nothing. And even so, what are the wage increases for each of those positions? Bearing in mind you need to earn an extra £5k a year to see a £200 increase in wage at the end of the month. Those types of jobs have wage increments in pence per hour, not pounds. "Roll up roll up, you too can earn a £30k a year salary....in about 15 years....when inflation will make it equivalent to your current £11k salary anyway.....!!"

And your answer to that? Go to university. Fucking lol. I'm sure you can find the figures for yourself with regards to the stats for those that enter a trade relative to their studies, and even then, look at the wages. Not much better off than before, except now you have a £10k+ loan to pay back too.

GhostRider
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I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 14:39 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhostRider wrote:
Bearing in mind you need to earn an extra £5k a year to see a £200 increase in wage at the end of the month.


Erm, what? 50%+ marginal tax rate?

Are we including in work benefits here? If so, then your £5/h figure for NMW is wrong.
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 14:49 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
GhostRider wrote:
Bearing in mind you need to earn an extra £5k a year to see a £200 increase in wage at the end of the month.


Erm, what? 50%+ marginal tax rate?

Are we including in work benefits here? If so, then your £5/h figure for NMW is wrong.


No sugar tits, and you too can try this at home.

Simply goto an online income tax calculator, enter in I dunno, £20k as your annual salary, see what the monthly take home is, then up it by £5k, and compare the numbers. I doubt the tax code will differ much for the general populous, and admittingly I factored in Student loan repayments (gotta get that management position after all!!), so without SL it goes from £246 to £311, but thats by the by, as I said, shelf stacker to till dolly does not come with a £5k annual salary increase, sadly Crying or Very sad

GhostRider
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I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.
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Disgracejones
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: The indoctrinated sheep speaks. Reply with quote

Ghostrider

I don't think anyone has ever called me an indoctrinated sheep before what a rotter! Never mind, you could have said much worse Wink

In my post I do not say that cutting benefits would give people a kick up the arse. I do not say that I think that people need to be kicked anywhere on their person in order to bring about change. And although I used myself as an example at no point did I say that I was citing myself as the sole reason for my belief. These are your inferences and they are wrong.

It's as though you read my post and formed an entirely different understanding to what I intended. You turned a positive opinion into a negative one.

So I wasn't able to convey my point to you. Now I could say that the misunderstanding is your fault, for being stupid, for jumping to conclusions and making incorrect assumptions. But I won't. You appear to be an ignorant ass but I won't assume that to be the case because It's not fair to fill in the blanks in other peoples lives based on your own preconceptions.

So I'll take full responsibility for not making my point clear to you. Maybe I should have put more pictures in it? Wink

The point was that the benefits system takes away personal responsibility.

If someone else is paying your rent and you are no longer responsible then you have relinquished responsibility.


Personal responsibility is the key, it's what separates children from adults. The men from the boys.

When people make references to 'the system' and dish out blame for their own personal situation they are not taking responsibility and until a person can take responsibility for their own actions in the world then they're cornered.

My own tale and that of my beleaguered brother were stories that were acceptable for me to share. After years of experience of working with the Probation Service, with charities and in various community settings there are many more stories that I could tell but as I still work in the public sector I'd consider that to be over stepping the mark and unprofessional. I'm frequently disgraceful but even this 'bint' has limits.

Every week I work with unemployed service users, helping them to navigate the new Universal Jobmatch system which was brought in last November. Every day I see evidence of this wastage of human potential and it's very fucking sad. On the other hand I've also seen the turnaround when people break out of their shackles. Whether in to paid work or voluntary work makes no difference.

Your character assessment of me was also way off the mark. When I moved on to that estate and stopped work I wasn't given 'freedom'. I got myself in a bad situation because I had a major wobble and stopped taking responsibility for myself. Hence selling my house and throwing in the towel. I gave up and as a consequence I landed on my arse.

When I was supported by the state. I was trapped in a depressing high crime, drink/drug ravaged shithole of council estate. I had three young children but I was lonely with no support network after escaping from an abusive relationship. I honestly felt that I had no hope of making a better life for myself and my children. So I really mean it when I say that I'm grateful that I escaped. For a while I was in a stressful job and it was hard to make ends meet but we did it and within a year I'd saved enough to set up my own business, to move us out of that grim house and I never looked back.

Personal responsibility. That's where it's at.

You should probably learn to push yourself more at the Gym, it's your workout so take responsibility for it man.

Tally ho sweetheart and thanks for reading my blog.

DJ
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 16:18 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fucking wow. Someone has "bawwed" to you about little old me's takes on your prose in a nowhere, nothing corner of the internet. I am honoured. Shame they can't fight their own corner, but such is the folly of the weak minded.

Well yeah if you don't make your points clear enough and expect your entire life/sob story to be derived from what little you have put down then really I am quite surprised that you are shocked when assumptions are made. Maybe if you'd put down what you have above then I'd have been able to make a more informed opinion on your tale of woe. You can have that one for free too.

Still sounds like because you decided to sit on your arse and didn't enjoy it, that people who genuinely need that kind of support should be denied it because you think you know whats best, after partaking of the benefits yourself naturally.....

GhostRider
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I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.
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Disgracejones
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PostPosted: 16:39 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again with the violence. Simmer down!

Violent and paranoid? You go girl!

There's no weak minded tell tales here honey-pie. There's this crazy hoodoo called google analytics that flagged up big hits from this site so being curious I popped over and had a look.

I'm flattered that you took the time to read it and respond with such vitriol because you were my word count for the day right here
www.750words.com I'm like a womble baby I find a good use for others people rubbish. Laughing

lots of love
DJ
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 16:48 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

How ironic you find the time to go chase people who read your guff and menstruate at them now that you are gainfully employed. Had you such get up and go whilst in your darker hours you might have been a bit more productive, and perhaps it would never have existed.

Or maybe thats your point.

Mind=Blown Shocked

GhostRider
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I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.
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Disgracejones
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PostPosted: 17:05 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Done my excercise for today, you serve no further purpose for this old sheep although you might want to look up irony and get to grips with what that actually means.
DJ
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keggyhander
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PostPosted: 18:35 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
I'd also suggest that those that are more well off generally don't want a huge plasma TV. They have more interesting things to do than spend 6+ hours in front of a glowing box, and so have a small set to watch the odd show.


This. Absolutely this.

I'd be interested to see the graph of TV size vs Thickness Of Viewer.
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PostPosted: 19:13 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm getting my tin-foil hat on regarding benefits, I'd be tempted to say they are a very handy way of whoring votes.

A bit more tin-foil would say it's a great way of keeping the unwashed masses subservient. If they work you can tax them so much they are too busy worrying about money to kick up a fuss, if they don't work then you make them so dependent that the last thing they would want to do is rock the boat and risk upsetting their 'entitlements'.

The way I see it, if you take someone's money then like it or not, you are in their pocket. No-one is forcing anyone to take those lovely handouts, people voluntarily walk down to job centre and sign on. You are, quite literally signing that you are getting the moneys and in return you are subject to the conditions attached to that money.

If a private citizen decided to fund someone: give them a house and money for food etc etc, then that dependent relationship would be clear as day and we would all see that the person paying out has a significant leverage over the person being paid for. Why would it be any different if the state is paying out? If the you rely on someone else to put food on the table and roof over your head, then someone has a massive leverage over you, it's not a healthy place to be.
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Legsy.
Nova Slayer



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: 19:18 - 03 Apr 2013    Post subject: Re: The indoctrinated sheep speaks. Reply with quote

Disgracejones wrote:

These are your inferences and they are wrong.

It's as though you read my post and formed an entirely different understanding to what I intended. You turned a positive opinion into a negative one.

So I wasn't able to convey my point to you. Now I could say that the misunderstanding is your fault, for being stupid, for jumping to conclusions and making incorrect assumptions. But I won't. You appear to be an ignorant ass but I won't assume that to be the case because It's not fair to fill in the blanks in other peoples lives based on your own preconceptions.

So I'll take full responsibility for not making my point clear to you. Maybe I should have put more pictures in it? Wink



Typical internet debate:
1. Party A presents an opinion/argument.
2. Party B disagrees using presumptions and insult.
3. Party A humiliates Party B.
4. Party B, flustered, responds using fuller sentences and noticeably more elaborate language than usual. The responses (there are always several in rapid succession) still boil down to presumption and insult.


Quoted Stage 3 of the debate, because it was hilarious.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 13 years, 134 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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