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Minty |
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Minty World Chat Champion
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Walloper |
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Walloper Super Spammer
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treeno |
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treeno Crazy Courier
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kramdra |
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kramdra World Chat Champion
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Posted: 14:02 - 30 May 2013 Post subject: |
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Brighton has a lot of these boxes, I use them every day. I always filter, plus I dont want to be rear ended by a car, so its the safest place for a MC to be** and I will argue that if caught.
I know the HWC says we cant use them, however my motorised bicycle has two wheels and so does the picture in the box
Ive also started taking advantage of "right turns first" traffic light junctions, bloody brilliant
** except if you get away from the light too quickly and have a wobble, like my slide two weeks ago |
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Minty |
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Minty World Chat Champion
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Notj7 |
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Notj7 Brolly Dolly
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G |
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G The Voice of Reason
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Minty |
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Minty World Chat Champion
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Notj7 |
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Notj7 Brolly Dolly
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G The Voice of Reason
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Walloper |
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Walloper Super Spammer
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 14:41 - 30 May 2013 Post subject: |
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J7mbo wrote: | What? The point of filtering is.. go on? It's to get to the front. So I can set off without being in traffic. Nothing wrong with that, we all do it... |
Except that it's illegal to pass the vehicle nearest to any light-controlled pedestrian crossing, but of course you know that.
You may be thinking of bicycles, to which that doesn't apply. That's why they have those boxes.
If you're not bothered about legality, and cross stop lines anyway, then why bother paying any attention to the lights? Just keep going on straight through the junction if it's safe to do so, like pedalists do.
It's really just a question of how likely you are to be caught for any of these offences. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Notj7 |
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Notj7 Brolly Dolly
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treeno |
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treeno Crazy Courier
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G The Voice of Reason
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Posted: 15:34 - 30 May 2013 Post subject: |
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treeno wrote: | Whether most of you will admit it or not, the main reason for getting to the front of the queue is to get where you're going faster, not to be safer. If you were oh so worried about safety you wouldn't filter in the first place (there's about as much chance of getting randomly sideswiped whilst filtering than there is of getting rear ended while stopped at lights). |
It doesn't massively affect speed, going to the car behind the first, or going infront of it - I'll be accelerating in front of it as quickly as possible anyway.
However, in my experience, when slotted in behind the first car or similar there is a lot higher chance of cars not giving you space (either in lane or between lanes), veering together and the like.
Riding between stationary cars in solid traffic tends to be pretty safe in my experience - pedestrians are likely the bigger danger.
Filtering when moving, which you're quite likely to be forced to do if you don't pull to the front, from a compromised position too, increases that danger. |
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Howard64180 |
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Howard64180 L Plate Warrior
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Posted: 15:38 - 30 May 2013 Post subject: |
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Walloper, I am quite capable of planning ahead and not getting stuck in a green box The point is - as Rogerborg has pointed out - that someone could get a fine for acting within the law. The whole idea is flawed, which won't of course stop them doing it! |
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Walloper |
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Walloper Super Spammer
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Posted: 16:51 - 30 May 2013 Post subject: |
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Howard64180 wrote: | Walloper, I am quite capable of planning ahead and not getting stuck in a green box The point is - as Rogerborg has pointed out - that someone could get a fine for acting within the law. The whole idea is flawed, which won't of course stop them doing it! |
I knew it would come to this. It invariably does.
There is another name for the green box.
It is called an Advanced Stop Line.
The clue is in the bit that says Advanced Stop Line.
What do you do at a traffic light when you see an Amber or a Red light? Stop at the white line. Not On it or over it but before it.
In the Advanced Stop Line 'system' The 'chalk line' yer no' meant tae cross on Amber or on Red is a few yards BEFORE the normal placing of the Stop line (Although there is still a 'Normally' positioned Stop line at the front of the green box)
Sooo consider the First line you meet on a Green Advanced Stop box as THEE Big Fat Stop the Bus line and don't cross it on Amber or on Red. And also don't creep over the line either.
There, honestly, is not much to debate on the way this system works.
The only thing being complained about is those who do't want to or refuse to obey the rules of the road.
It gets more and more like the Middle East or Romania in the UK every day.
Why don't you lot who don't want to follow our rules go live somewhere else?
178
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10, 36(1) & 43(2) ____________________ W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 17:02 - 30 May 2013 Post subject: |
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Actually, Nutsville has just pointed out that the legislation has a huge glaring SNAFU in it: it only allows pushbikes to cross the first stop line a via cycle lane or gate.
If they just ride over the line, they're committing exactly the same "offence" as motorised traffic.
Given how many of the them just ignore all road traffic legislation, I don't see that bothering them, but it might make selective enforcement a bit problematic. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Walloper |
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Walloper Super Spammer
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Posted: 17:30 - 30 May 2013 Post subject: |
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Rogerborg wrote: | Actually, Nutsville has just pointed out that the legislation has a huge glaring SNAFU in it: it only allows pushbikes to cross the first stop line a via cycle lane or gate.
If they just ride over the line, they're committing exactly the same "offence" as motorised traffic.
Given how many of the them just ignore all road traffic legislation, I don't see that bothering them, but it might make selective enforcement a bit problematic. |
I never knew there was such a device as a 'Gate' to enter ASLs.
I know there are some Kamakarsie Cycle Lanes that force cyclists to 'filter' between traffic. The lane ends at the ASL box.
I do not see any mention of gate in the Highway Code rule 178 either where I would like to believe those on high who write the Bible of the road would include this very important point.
It may be some upstart looking for a get out when there isn't any 'reasonable' get it to get out of. The Highway Code mentions 'Cyclists ahead of 'other' traffic' I can't see any ambiguity in that.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/6/made
I agree with what the olympic cyclist said that since cyclist are expecting other road user to help cyclists, and I think MOST other road user do, so cyclist should show some better respect for the rules WE have to follw where they ride in contempt for them.
Bastirts... ____________________ W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair |
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 17:47 - 30 May 2013 Post subject: |
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Walloper wrote: |
178
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10, 36(1) & 43(2) |
So. You could be stopped in the box and still have complied with the HC (don't have time to look up chapter an verse just now) if the light went red as you crossed the first stop line.
On that basis, an image of you stopped in the advance stop area wouldn't be good enough, they'd have to provide either a dynamic image or a timestamped image of your vehicle behind the first stop light with the lights on red AND one of your vehicle in the advance area immediately afterwards.
The way I read that, stopping in the advance stop area isn't illegal as long as the light was on the transition from green to amber when you crossed the first line. So that's going to happen oh, once every traffic light cycle in slow moving traffic then. There will always be one car that could legitimately have stopped in the box.
So they'll need to alter the highway code if they want to do this as while it isn't the law, it is the de facto official government guide on how to drive. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Walloper |
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Walloper Super Spammer
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Posted: 18:11 - 30 May 2013 Post subject: |
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stinkwheel wrote: | Walloper wrote: |
178
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10, 36(1) & 43(2) |
So. You could be stopped in the box and still have complied with the HC (don't have time to look up chapter an verse just now) if the light went red as you crossed the first stop line.
On that basis, an image of you stopped in the advance stop area wouldn't be good enough, they'd have to provide either a dynamic image or a timestamped image of your vehicle behind the first stop light with the lights on red AND one of your vehicle in the advance area immediately afterwards.
The way I read that, stopping in the advance stop area isn't illegal as long as the light was on the transition from green to amber when you crossed the first line. So that's going to happen oh, once every traffic light cycle in slow moving traffic then. There will always be one car that could legitimately have stopped in the box.
So they'll need to alter the highway code if they want to do this as while it isn't the law, it is the de facto official government guide on how to drive. |
Without getting my knickers in a twist over it as it's late here (and I'm bursting/touching cloth) The whole deal was maybe runnig before they could walk. If we rely on good will to all men and the spirit of kindness, it is not reeeeealy such a hardship to allow pedalists to get w wee bit infront.
Traffic moves too fast in towns as accident statistics show. More people more traffic etc.
As I said I have Never been caught on the green box.
I have never been caught crossing the line on red either.
It is simply bad planning.
A driver should anticipate where his vehicle will be at the point the lights change. If you can see the lights are going to change before you can exit the ASL then do not cross the line.
It is a bit like a level crossing only people who gamble with those are thinned/spread out regularly enough. Most folk know how a box junction works It is not nuclear physics, but there are a load of cnuts who refuse to understand or are too fcuking dopey to work out how their stupidity affects traffic flow.
It is not my rule but I know how it works. If they don't know the princple/spirit of the rules of the road then I don't think they should be driving/riding/cycling.
If people were to read the HC every now and then It is an important book/pamphlet, then perhaps behaviour on our roads would improve a little.
But most probably CBA to do so. ____________________ W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair |
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gorillaonabik... |
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gorillaonabik... Nearly there...
Joined: 31 Jul 2011 Karma :
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Posted: 19:49 - 30 May 2013 Post subject: |
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The safety issue is significant and maybe non-Londoners are unaware of the issue. Would you prefer to be sandwiched between two cars / buses / lorries whose drivers are unlikely to have seen you or slip through to the front of the queue, visible?
Given the choice of 'more likely to die,' or 'less likely to die,' I know which option I'd prefer.
I also cycle in London occasionally and don't see why my life should be made safer when on a bicycle and yet made more dangerous on a motorbike. I think that bicycles and PTWs sharing the box could work. Hell, it does at the moment and I have personally never heard of an accident involving a motorbike and bicycle due to their sharing of the green box. ____________________ FZR400 (blown engine), ZXR750 (blown engine), ZX6R (accident), CBR600 which had engine issues after which I learned to change gear..., CBR900, CBR924 (stolen), CB600, CB1300 (everything blew up), BMW K1300GT (written off, hit from rear while stationary), Bandit 1250 for a couple of months, Triumph Sprint ST 1050 (nicked) and somewhere in there, I wrote off a Ducati 748 at Cadwell. |
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Derivative |
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Derivative World Chat Champion
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Minty |
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Minty World Chat Champion
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 21:26 - 30 May 2013 Post subject: |
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So. ITT lots of people labouring under the misaprehension it's illegal to stop your car between the two lines on an advanced cycle stop.
Chapter and verse for Roger:
Traffic signs, regulations and general Directions 2002. SI:3113 Section 43:
Quote: | (2) Where the road marking shown in diagram 1001.2 has been placed in conjunction with light signals, “stop line” in relation to those light signals means—
(a)the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or
(b)the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane. |
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/images/uksi_20023113_en_112.gif
and Section 36 (1) defines what to do at the stop line.
Yawn.
I'll pick out the pertinant bits:
Section 36(1) wrote: | (e)the amber signal shall, when shown alone, convey the same prohibition as the red signal, except that, as respects any vehicle which is so close to the stop line that it cannot safely be stopped without proceeding beyond the stop line, it shall convey the same indication as the green signal or green arrow signal which was shown immediately before it; |
section 43(2) wrote: | “stop line” in relation to those light signals means— <snip>
(b)the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded beyond the first stop line |
The law specifically allows you to stop between the first and second stop lines. You can cross the first stop line on green or on amber if you're too close to "safely stop" but should then stop at the second one if it's now red.
It would only be illegal to be stopped between the two lines if you crossed the first stop line when the light was on red or if it changed to amber when you were far enough away to "safely stop" (nice and vague huh?).
Not going to get far on this one without passing an act of parliament making it illegal to stop between the two stop lines. It's not illegal now as long as you didn't cross the first line on a red.
I wonder if Boris has been made aware of the actual law as opposed to what people think is the law? Shouldn't he have people for this kind of thing? ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 11 years, 19 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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