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Why no v-twin/il4 in Enduro/Sm?

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Matt94
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 21 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 19 Jun 2013    Post subject: Why no v-twin/il4 in Enduro/Sm? Reply with quote
I'm not even sure if this is a really retarded question or not but I was just thinking about it..

How come they never put these style engines in enduro/sm bikes? Was there any particular reason?

Excuse my potato-ness. Laughing
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 23:19 - 19 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://www.ralepi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/2011-Aprilia-SXV-550-Front-Angle-588x554.jpg

V twin yo.
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Supermoto_Fan
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PostPosted: 23:22 - 19 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
SXV 550, pretty batshit mental bike
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 23:23 - 19 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://www.raptorsandrockets.com/images/KTM/KTM_950_SM_S006.JPG Wink
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Matt94
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PostPosted: 23:27 - 19 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
oh yeah.. derp.

il4 though? Very Happy
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 23:30 - 19 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Would be useless.

High revving etc.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 07:35 - 20 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Two reasons:

1.) Weight. Have you noticed how enduro bikes tend to be quite light weight? Even lighter than sportsbikes? Also, they tend to be quite narrow, which inline fours aren't.

2.) power delivery. You want a nice lumpy single or twin to doff doff doff your way out of the deep mud and up inclines. An inline four's delivery is so smooth that you'd just spin the rear tyre every time you open the throttle.

Derp.
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c-m
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PostPosted: 08:43 - 20 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
An IL4 is lighter than a v-twin.

How high up the rev range you go is neither here nor there, you just let the clutch out later.
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 09:02 - 20 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
c-m wrote:
An IL4 is lighter than a v-twin.


Got any stats on that?
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 09:43 - 20 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
c-m wrote:


How high up the rev range you go is neither here nor there, you just let the clutch out later.

On the road, absolutely; off road, absolutely not!

I took my crm 125 (a revvy nsr engine) to a very muddy off road event when it had nsr-esque gearing. I could barely get over 10mph, as it either. Bogged down at low revs and span up high revs.

Further, the 'big bang' nature of a big single can help get more traction. I used my 690 for my first enduro and was passing better riders on lighter bikes in some really nasty muddy bits. I suspect high gearing and low down power meant it could get traction where others would just spin up.

As mentioned, there's also the width issue and that you don't NEED lots of power... 500cc 2 strokes went out of fashion because the 250s were easier to ride... and now KTM is beating 450 4 strokes on it's 350.
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CarlosCBR
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PostPosted: 11:05 - 20 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
IL4 motocross.....

https://blog.crazymoto.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/a101605_1.jpg

V-twin motocross....

https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/RussS_/SVAdventure/SVAdventure21Front1.jpg
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G
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 20 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Neither are motocross, where they'd do terribly Wink.

The R1 was used for the prologue stage of the Erzberg rally - it's a bit like pikes-peak, but all off road. So lots of open fast bits, nothing technical and plenty of traction.

Competitors than can afford it will generally use bikes like the 950/990 enduro, HP2 and the like.
Everyone will be on a proper competition enduro bike for the main event.

The second bike looks more like an adventure bike, however converted SVs are some times used in sand racing - and someone entered a pretty stock one in a SM race too!
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Fizzer Thou
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PostPosted: 11:32 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x250/mattvolm/2007060918_Erzberg20207.jpg

https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/Minnetonka_Mark/2009%20KTM%20950%20SuperEnduro/IMG_2370s.jpg
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 12:01 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
c-m wrote:
An IL4 is lighter than a v-twin.

How high up the rev range you go is neither here nor there, you just let the clutch out later.


No they aren't
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 12:09 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
c-m wrote:
An IL4 is lighter than a v-twin.
Only if you solely equate a V-twin with American engineering.
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c-m
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PostPosted: 12:35 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
chris-red wrote:
c-m wrote:
An IL4 is lighter than a v-twin.

How high up the rev range you go is neither here nor there, you just let the clutch out later.


No they aren't


I reckon they are, you've got far more metal used to add that second cylinder in a v configuration that the extra metal used to extend the cylinder block to have 4 smaller combustion chambers.

Sure you have two more pistons and con rods but they are smaller and lighter then those used in a v-twin as each combustion chamber is smaller, and stroke shorter.

There's also no need for such a heavy counter weight to balance things out and reduce vibration.
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chris-red
Have you considered a TDM?



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PostPosted: 13:18 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is a lot more metal in a Il4 just look at the size of one compared to a v twin.

The more cylinders you have the more weight. as the more parts you need to build it.
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Scootaloo
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PostPosted: 13:20 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tef... Tef... where ye B? put these noob's out of their misery...
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 13:24 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
SV650 twin

2 cylinders, 81.0mm x 62.6mm
167kg dry

GSF650 il4

4 cylinders, 65.5mm x 48.7mm
215kg dry

Just looking at that... il4 are fucking heavy, there is more material despite the smaller pistons.. Laughing
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
c-m wrote:
I reckon they are, you've got far more metal used to add that second cylinder in a v configuration that the extra metal used to extend the cylinder block to have 4 smaller combustion chambers.
Well, I've just gone to the car park with a tape measure, and done some very rough measurements of my SV650 and my colleague's GSF650, and I say you're wrong.

Quite aside from the matter of exhaust weights, fuelling kit and fluid capacities, the bulk of an I4 is greater than a V2.

SV650 top end size is (15*15*22)*2, so that's 9900cm3, bottom end size is 28*28*28, which comes to 21952cm3. Total is 31852cm3.
GSF650 top end size is 21*20*40 = 16800cm3, bottom end size is 19*34*40 = 25840cm3. Total is 42640cm3.

While occupied area is quite clearly not the same as total mass, there is a lot more there, and even if the casings were both 90% empty, there'd still be 25% more material required to form the cases for the I4 over the V2.

The reason I haven't quoted the manufacturers listed weights is that the GSF650 uses a steel cradle frame, while the SV650 has an alloy frame, which is going to be lighter regardless.

:edited to diminish hostility a bit:
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Last edited by nowhere.elysium on 13:57 - 21 Jun 2013; edited 1 time in total
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weasley
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
IL4s have long crankshafts, and cranks are the heavy bits. And being long they need to be stiffer too, so even heavier. And I'll bet that two IL4 conrods weigh more than one V2 rod (from equivalent engine sizes/powers/torques).

Not to mention all those valves! Very Happy
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reed
Nearly there...



Joined: 28 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: 13:32 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
nowhere.elysium wrote:
c-m wrote:
I reckon they are, you've got far more metal used to add that second cylinder in a v configuration that the extra metal used to extend the cylinder block to have 4 smaller combustion chambers.
Well, I've just gone to the car park with a tape measure, and done some very rough measurements of my SV650 and my colleague's GSF650, and I say you're talking crap.

Quite aside from the matter of exhaust weights, fuelling kit and fluid capacities, the bulk of an I4 is greater than a V2.

SV650 top end size is (15*15*22)*2, so that's 9900cm3, bottom end size is 28*28*28, which comes to 21952cm3. Total is 31852cm3.
GSF650 top end size is 21*20*40 = 16800cm3, bottom end size is 19*34*40 = 25840cm3. Total is 42640cm3.

While occupied area is quite clearly not the same as total mass, there is a lot more there, and even if the casings were both 90% empty, there'd still be 25% more material required to form the cases for the I4 over the V2.

The reason I haven't quoted the manufacturers listed weights is that the GSF650 uses a steel cradle frame, while the SV650 has an alloy frame, which is going to be lighter regardless.


I think you have got way too into this.
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 13:34 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Reed wrote:
I think you have got way too into this.
Meh, slow day at work, and the car park in question is just outside my office. Plus I'm an argumentative sod.
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reed
Nearly there...



Joined: 28 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: 13:36 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
nowhere.elysium wrote:
Reed wrote:
I think you have got way too into this.
Meh, slow day at work, and the car park in question is just outside my office. Plus I'm an argumentative sod.


Fair enough. Thumbs Up

I must say I agree with what you say.
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reed
Nearly there...



Joined: 28 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 21 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
On a random unrelated note, I just remembered this cool 125cc in line 4 I read about a while ago. Very cool. Mr. Green

https://thekneeslider.com/honda-125cc-inline-4-cylinder-monkey-bike/
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