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dandelion
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 Posted: 09:04 - 16 Aug 2013  Post subject: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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CaNsA
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Posted: 11:21 - 16 Aug 2013  Post subject: |
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supZ
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G
The Voice of Reason
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Posted: 11:31 - 16 Aug 2013  Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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Indeed; as I just said on facebook - it seems the people that dislike middle lane hogs are the other, slightly faster middle lane hogs. 
Normal people just overtake!
Or, if you're riding a bike (this is Biking News an' all), you just go past regardless of the traffic, because you're on a thin vehicle . |
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ScaredyCat
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G
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| Posted: 13:18 - 16 Aug 2013 Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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In my old van I've had a good few of the people trying to 'circle' me, or at least undertake.
I always continued at the same pace I was at - foot flat to the floor, as it wasn't very fast.
Many, many times said people then come up to vehicle on the inside lane which I was making sure I could overtake and end up dropping back, coming back in behind me again.
Or, of course, cutting out at the last moment, endangering themselves for the sake of 'principal'.
There is, of course, nothing illegal about undertaking in it's self.
Towing a light trailer can lead to the 'truck grooves' in the inside lane causing instability.
Ok, you could slow down; but what's that going to do? It's going to mean lots of now very slowly accelerating trucks to have to pull out in to the middle lane, causing much more problems.
For similar reasons, in that van I'd often pull out very early - if there was a fair bit of traffic in the middle lane I could pull out early and sit at 65-70 in the middle lane.
If I left it later, the traffic piled up and I'd slow to an inside lane vehicle doing 45mph up a hill or whatever. Now I've got a barely accelerating van at 45mph pulling out in to the middle lane, but this is better, yes?
Of course, if people actually left a decent gap and let people out, it wouldn't be so bad; but that's not the way of the middle-lane(anti)hog! |
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goto10
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| Posted: 16:21 - 16 Aug 2013 Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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I was aware of the phenomena, but that video highlights it brilliantly.
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ScaredyCat
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| Pete. |
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Pete.
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| Posted: 10:05 - 17 Aug 2013 Post subject: |
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Yeah well - some people definitely are more equal than others
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 11:26 - 17 Aug 2013 Post subject: |
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Overtake on the left at 70 mph = should not, could be argued to be careless or inconsiderate driving depending on the circumstances.
Overtake on the right at 71 mph = must not, always a criminal act.
We don't half fret about some silly things.
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ScaredyCat
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| Posted: 12:18 - 17 Aug 2013 Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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| G wrote: |
Other people driving badly can mean if you don't sit in the middle lane when others don't want you to be there, you cause considerably more hold ups.
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Other people don't want you there when there's nothing in the left hand lane, I have no objection to you and your van being in the middle lane if there's traffic to your left or you are overtaking - even if it's a slow overtake. I do object to you sitting in the middle lane because you might have to jiggle the pedals and wiggle the wheel and you find that inconvenient.
| G wrote: |
But of course the slightly-faster middle lane hog
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There's no such thing as a 'slightly-faster middle lane hog', a middle lane hog is a middle lane hog. Unless you're travelling faster than traffic in the right hand lane for some reason - perhaps undertaking an outside lane hog?
| G wrote: |
but they don't have to go in to that oh so scary outside lane! I mean, I heard there's crocodile's in the central reservation too! Crocodiles!
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If you're causing traffic to back up because you wont move to the left when there's no traffic you have bugger all defence. You'll cause the traffic behind you to slow, people will try and squeeze to the outside lane causing others to brake .. and we're back to the traffic jams. Driving isn't just about you and your passengers it's about those around you too.
| G wrote: |
And I'm terribly sorry that I was being inconsiderate by not being able to afford another good few thousand pounds to get a better van
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It's got little to do with the fact that you couldn't afford more for a better van, it's to do with driving to within your existing van's capability - taking other road users into account.
| Quote: | So, intentionally endangering yourself and causing delays to a lot more people? |
If you are unable to cope with a car in front slowing down then you shouldn't be driving a van let alone a motorcycle.
| Quote: | is why I'm opposed to the typical middle lane (anti)hog types. |
I'd be more inclined to think you're a middle lane hog and that's why you don't like anti-middle lane hog types.
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G
The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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| Posted: 12:30 - 17 Aug 2013 Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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| ScaredyCat wrote: |
Other people don't want you there when there's nothing in the left hand lane, |
Yea, of course they want to get past without the inconvenience of changing lane. And why should they care about all the people further back that are going to get held up much more?
| Quote: | There's no such thing as a 'slightly-faster middle lane hog' |
They're actually very easy to spot. They are the people complaining about middle lane hogs. The people happy to not hog the middle lane have already overtaken.
| Quote: | It's got little to do with the fact that you couldn't afford more for a better van, it's to do with driving to within your existing van's capability - taking other road users into account.
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Exactly what I'd have been doing - not trying to cause excessive slow down for multiple other vehicles.
But presumably you'd prefer that you got past, even if a lot more traffic behind was slowed and with a higher speed differential causing more danger?
I reiterate the example again, just so you're clear.
Van would do 65-70 (actually would sit a little higher if you got it right), but took an age to get there, and up a hill when laden would also be incredibly slow to accelerate, but would normally sustain the initial speed for some time.
If I see a gap in traffic, or if I'm already 'out', I can pull out early and keep going at that speed.
If I stay in the inside lane, especially on a hill, I get stuck behind a truck doing 40mph. I go to pull out doing 40mph and now all the traffic coming up in the middle lane is slowed to 40mph. The outside lane, people are maybe going past at 75-80mph.
So for the sake of a few cars being slowed by 5-10mph earlier, you've now got a queue of traffic trying to merge with other traffic at twice the speed; and this is your preference?
| Quote: | If you are unable to cope with a car in front slowing down then you shouldn't be driving a van let alone a motorcycle. |
Nothing to do with the point you replied to. |
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ScaredyCat
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Posted: 13:26 - 17 Aug 2013  Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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| G wrote: |
Yea, of course they want to get past without the inconvenience of changing lane. And why should they care about all the people further back that are going to get held up much more?
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Why would 'they' not have to change lane unless they were
a) A middle lane hog
b) overtaking something that was on the inside lane
You seen to be deliberately confusing 'overtaking' with 'sitting in the middle lane'.
| G wrote: |
They're actually very easy to spot. They are the people complaining about middle lane hogs. The people happy to not hog the middle lane have already overtaken.
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 - logic fail .. "All dogs are animals and have have 4 legs ego all 4 legged animals are dogs"
| Quote: |
Exactly what I'd have been doing - not trying to cause excessive slow down for multiple other vehicles.
But presumably you'd prefer that you got past, even if a lot more traffic behind was slowed and with a higher speed differential causing more danger?
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No I'd prefer it if you stayed the right hand lane until there was enough of a gap for you to pull out safely and then get up to speed. I've repeatedly said I have no issue with you overtaking in your van - you seem to ignore that when it's convenient. Again, just in case you missed it. You are not a middle lane hog if you are overtaking - even if you are slow at doing it.
All of you arguments are for when you are trying to overtake stuff, I have no issue with that at all because it's not hogging the middle lane, it's overtaking. To be 100% clear:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/188253/_bcf/mlh-1.jpg Fig 1 - Green car is NOT a middle lane hog if they are travelling faster/gaining ground on the purple car.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/188253/_bcf/mlh-2.jpg Fig 2 - Green car IS a middle lane hog because there is nothing in the inside lane.
| Quote: |
Nothing to do with the point you replied to. |
Of course it does.
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The Voice of Reason
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ScaredyCat
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| Posted: 15:23 - 17 Aug 2013 Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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| G wrote: |
Actually. A rather pertinent point.
Why does someone who's not already a middle lane hog get annoyed if they aren't? They should be in the inside lane unobstructed?
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If they are in the inside lane the can undertake, but drivers have been conditioned to see this as wrong. Most people will move to lane 2 then 3 then back again. That means you are in the way if you're travelling slower, and yet again, if there's nothing in that inside lane, that's where you should be anyway.
| G wrote: |
And this rather strengthens my point that the people who get annoyed with others in the middle lane are merely the people that like being their themselves!
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This statement is a repetition of your earlier logic fail.
| G wrote: |
Ok; I'll add the caveat "or they read the daily mail"  .
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Adding more unrelated variables doesn't help, plus I've never met a dog that can read.
| G wrote: |
But just to confirm; are you a middle lane hog by your definition if you pull out very early, to avoid getting caught up later?
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It'd depend how much later we're talking about and how much traffic there is. If the road is packed then no, you're just filling space. If there's nothing for you to overtake and you just pull into the middle lane on the off chance that you might meet something later in your journey then yes. I suppose if you could see the obstacle ahead, then that might* be mitigation.
*if you can see 20 miles away it's not.
| G wrote: |
Your point - someone 'unable to cope with a car in front slowing down' shouldn't be driving a van. First off, please define 'unable to cope'. Secondly please spell out exactly why your statement relates to mine.
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If you think a car slowing down in front of you, as I deliberately pointed out, "slowing (gently, obviously)" is a danger then I'd suggest that's "unable to cope" - I could see your point if someone overtook and slammed on their brakes but I made a point of excluding that possibility.
| G wrote: |
I'm presuming this going to be like the 'west' in Iraq.
"Well, when we invaded Afghanistan, many thousands of locals were injured and killed by terrorists. But it's nothing to do with us that the same happened in Iraq - the blood of these people isn't on our hands, even though we will have easily predicted it would happen and carried on with out actions regardless.
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I have no idea what you're on about.
| G wrote: |
How do you feel to someone towing a trailer, who can say only sustain 45mph in the inside lane due to the road surface, but can do 55-60 in the middle lane. (A situation I've also been in.)
Would you prefer the vehicle sit at 45mph in the inside lane? |
I'd probably prefer it yes, but if the road surface was shitty I'd have no truck (oh yes ) with it.
| G wrote: | (This seems to be what a lot of other middle lane hogs think should happen.) |
I'll refer you to the dogs from earlier..
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G
The Voice of Reason
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| Posted: 16:39 - 17 Aug 2013 Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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| ScaredyCat wrote: | , but drivers have been conditioned to see this as wrong. |
And there we get to the crux of the matter .
If people took the time to think about the situation and continued as they were, there wouldn't be an issue!
So you dislike people being in the middle lane because other drivers have been conditioned to see something as wrong?
| Quote: | This statement is a repetition of your earlier logic fail.
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Rather than proving it to be failed logic, you failed at doing so yourself by using a metaphor that did not transfer to the situation.
Results: inclusive.
| Quote: |
Adding more unrelated variables doesn't help, plus I've never met a dog that can read.
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I've met plenty of dogs more intelligent than daily mail readers, however.
If the road was really packed, it's unlikely I'd have been able to pull out in the first place. If the road was empty I wouldn't have bothered. It's cases where it's a bit packed, but I found a decent gap that I would. Of course, quite likely the gap would expand a bit too, once I had pulled out.
Oh and actually; I'm thinking back I did have more than one counter-clockwise looper/or actually someone that decided the inside lane was the best place to be because, blindly "you should always be in the inside lane" - who then got stuck in the inside lane - I certainly wasn't going to slow down and let them out, negating the whole point of me being there in the first place.
Or of course the ones that do get out, but have to violently cut in; something I'd not be going near in a fully loaded LWB hi top LT35!
I never said a car slowing infront of me was a danger - though I'd certainly consider a 'hazard' to be aware of.
However for many drivers, especially many who have their foot flat to the floor and are trying not to lose momentum, they will continue like that with mm to spare when a considerably smaller vehicle in front decides to 'play' with them.
At that point the vehicle in front is intentionally causing a situation which not only dangers them, but a large number of people behind them on the motorway.
It would seem they also 'can not cope' (you haven't defined what this means yet - awaiting to hear the answer to that ) with motorway driving and should not be there!
| Quote: | I'd probably prefer it yes, but if the road surface was shitty I'd have no truck (oh yes ) with it. |
So you'd prefer trucks were regularly having to pull out and overtake slowly, holding everyone up even more, to you having to overtake one vehicle in the next overtaking lane? |
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ScaredyCat
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| Posted: 17:37 - 17 Aug 2013 Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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Ok, now you're just starting to babble..
| G wrote: |
And there we get to the crux of the matter .
If people took the time to think about the situation and continued as they were, there wouldn't be an issue!
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Let me clarify this for you, "under threat of prosecution" would be a better phrase perhaps.
| G wrote: |
Results: inclusive.
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You're babbling again...
| G wrote: |
I've met plenty of dogs more intelligent than daily mail readers, however.
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All of them, I'd wager.
| G wrote: |
Oh and actually; I'm thinking back I did have more than one counter-clockwise looper/or actually someone that decided the inside lane was the best place to be because, blindly "you should always be in the inside lane" - who then got stuck in the inside lane - I certainly wasn't going to slow down and let them out, negating the whole point of me being there in the first place.
Or of course the ones that do get out, but have to violently cut in; something I'd not be going near in a fully loaded LWB hi top LT35!
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Again, you're trying to use anecdote as evidence. Just because someone tried circling you and didn't know when or how to do it doesn't automatically validate your position.
| G wrote: |
However for many drivers, especially many who have their foot flat to the floor and are trying not to lose momentum, they will continue like that with mm to spare when a considerably smaller vehicle in front decides to 'play' with them.
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Ahh, so what you're saying is it's not ok for someone else to drive badly but it's fine for you to do it.
| G wrote: |
At that point the vehicle in front is intentionally causing a situation which not only dangers them, but a large number of people behind them on the motorway.
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..but you feel, rather than slowing down you can quite happily keep that situation dangerous.
| G wrote: |
It would seem they also 'can not cope' (you haven't defined what this means yet - awaiting to hear the answer to that ) with motorway driving and should not be there!
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Not sure why you can't grasp it.
| Quote: | So you'd prefer trucks were regularly having to pull out and overtake slowly |
You must drive on magical roads where truck drivers don't do this. They do it all the time round here (ports nearby) often in 2 lane roads taking forever to pass slowing all traffic.
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G
The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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| Posted: 17:49 - 17 Aug 2013 Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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| Quote: | Let me clarify this for you, "under threat of prosecution" would be a better phrase perhaps. |
Except that, of course, that is not grounds for prosecution.
As mentioned here or elsewhere; undertaking at 119mph apparently does bump it up a bit (they suggested they wouldn't have bothered if I'd be in the outside lane rather than in the middle lane undertaking, but this was some years ago).
| Quote: | You're babbling again...
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Provide a decent argument, then, rather than trying to dismiss quips like that!
Anecdotes certainly can make up part of a whole body of evidence. Though in this case I think it was more of just 'an anecdote'.
I have at no point suggested I believe I drive badly, nor have I suggested I believe it's ok for me to do so.
You may have suggested that, but that's another matter.
Nor have I said I wouldn't slow down if someone in front of me did.
Again, you keep jumping to conclusions.
There certainly, however, is evidence that some people don't - there was a video of someone within a foot or so of an under cover police car in an overtaking lane.
| Quote: | Not sure why you can't grasp it.
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Because you haven't defined it.
When you offer up your definition, I'm sure I'll be able to either understand it, or ask you further questions to help me understand it  .
| Quote: | They do it all the time round here (ports nearby) often in 2 lane roads taking forever to pass slowing all traffic. |
Exactly.
So you believe it's a good thing to give them even more reason to do this? |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 17:56 - 17 Aug 2013 Post subject: |
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I'd like to say that I'm not licking my lips and hitching up my kilt at how quickly this has escalated, but I'd be kidding nobody.
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Nobby the Bastard
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ScaredyCat
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| Posted: 18:45 - 17 Aug 2013 Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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| G wrote: |
Except that, of course, that is not grounds for prosecution.
As mentioned here or elsewhere; |
there is still the threat of
| RogerBorg wrote: |
careless or inconsiderate driving
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| G wrote: |
Provide a decent argument, then, rather than trying to dismiss quips like that!
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You assert that
| G wrote: |
They're [slightly faster middle lane hogs] actually very easy to spot. They are the people complaining about middle lane hogs
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I counter your generalisation with an extreme, though common example of why it's "a load of wank" - it involves dogs.
Prior to you adding a Daily Mail caveat you repeat your assertion, only with slightly different words.
| G wrote: |
And this rather strengthens my point that the people who get annoyed with others in the middle lane are merely the people that like being their themselves!
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I repeat that this is basically the same as what you said before, so, "logic fail".
| G wrote: |
Anecdotes certainly can make up part of a whole body of evidence. Though in this case I think it was more of just 'an anecdote'.
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The is a well known (incorrectly quoted) quote, "The plural of anecdote is not data". I will acknowledge that anecdote is interesting, but not proven data, so of little use - other than an interesting side note.
| G wrote: |
I have at no point suggested I believe I drive badly, nor have I suggested I believe it's ok for me to do so.
You may have suggested that, but that's another matter.
Nor have I said I wouldn't slow down if someone in front of me did.
Again, you keep jumping to conclusions.
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Your comment
| G wrote: |
However for many drivers, especially many who have their foot flat to the floor and are trying not to lose momentum, they will continue like that with mm to spare when a considerably smaller vehicle in front decides to 'play' with them.
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after stating that you*
| G wrote: |
I always continued at the same pace I was at - foot flat to the floor, as it wasn't very fast.
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*different post.
suggested that and led me to believe that you would fall into that category.
| G wrote: |
Because you haven't defined it.
When you offer up your definition, I'm sure I'll be able to either understand it, or ask you further questions to help me understand it .
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If you felt that something slowing down (slowly) endangered anyone, then I'd suggest you use the phrase 'I just poo'd my pants' at regular intervals on your journey.
| G wrote: | Exactly. So you believe it's a good thing to give them even more reason to do this? |
The only reason they need is 'I want to get past this other vehicle'. I don't believe* that they even consider other traffic in that decision.
* belief does not indicate correctness.
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The Voice of Reason
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| Posted: 19:19 - 17 Aug 2013 Post subject: Re: Tailgating And Lane Hogging Fines In Force |
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There's a threat of careless or inconsiderate driving any time a police person feels like it, frankly .
Certainly there is for doing a 'loop' around someone.
Your example is one which sub-groups one item and then says the parent group must be part of the sub-group.
My example did not have one group that was a sub-group of another in that manner, I did not then go and suggest that if one were in a sub-group of the other, all in the main group must also be part of the subgroup.
Where I discuss flat to floor, I believe it was quite clear it was when another driver was not in front of me, but was in fact next to me in the inside lane. It was certainly a bit of a 'jump' to presume I would do it in a situation which endanger myself too.
| Quote: |
If you felt that something slowing down (slowly) endangered anyone, then I'd suggest you use the phrase 'I just poo'd my pants' at regular intervals on your journey. |
The term in question was 'can not cope'.
Please spell out what you mean by 'can not cope'.
Presumably you do have an idea in your head?
Or do you consider it equivalent to "I just poo'd my pants"?
Even though as far as I knew we were discussing people who either decide to slow down and keep a safe gap when someone brakes in front of them, or who decide to keep on the gas and not slow down?
Neither seems like a logical conclusion for that to me.
Edit, to add:
Do you say that...
Slowing down infront of driver that will not slow down and intentionally continuing to do so when it's clear they are not doing so (as is not unlikely in cases where it's obviously been done to annoy.)
Does not create a more dangerous situation?
That having two vehicles very close together with drivers that likely have some animosity towards each other on motorway is a situation that is fine?
To me it seems it's just that sort of situation that leads to a multiple vehicle pile ups and both parties being in considerably more danger.
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The only reason they need is 'I want to get past this other vehicle'. I don't believe* that they even consider other traffic in that decision. |
In my experience many certainly do. Maybe less consideration of people in cars with plenty of acceleration, speed and fuel economy who are minorly inconvenienced by that specific action.
But that's a moot point.
The point was that by driving in the way you desire, you are forcing a situation which causes delay for more people. |
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| sabian92 |
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sabian92
World Chat Champion
Joined: 21 Oct 2012
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| Posted: 01:27 - 18 Aug 2013 Post subject: |
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I sit in the middle lane because I drive a shit enough car that's slower than the cunts doing 110 in their Audi company cars, but faster than the lorries and Doris's doing 55 in the inside lane. I do 70-75, so   to the po-po.
If they're going to bitch about people middle lane hogging, how about actually educating the wankers on how to actually drive. |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 12 years, 172 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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