advice on cornering...... UPDATED

[dolly3900]

Ok, been a fully fedged motor bicyclist for about a month now and have found that I am finding that whereas on the 125, I could throw it into corners with confidence at 50-60, on the bigger bike (CBF600), I find myself dropping it down to about 40 just to be sure of getting it around.

Any advice would be welcomed.

Was thinking of taking a track day up in Pembrey to see if that would help, or is it just better to ride the CBF and get used to it over time as the confidence builds?

Cheers

Mike

[J.M.]

Get used to it as your confidence builds.

Trying to push yourself past your skill set and confidence levels tends to lead to mistakes.

However you can increase your confidence levels. The method I like is to follow a more confident/experienced rider and get them to take the corner at your desired speed, keep eyes on them at all times and match their speed. Either that or choose your target corner, find what speed you can go around it. The next time you go around it, consciously increase your speed by 5mph or so. Keep repeating until you're up to your desired speed.

I had the same issue when I went from my CBR125 to my GS500F. The physical change in size made me uncomfortable riding. My cornering speed decreased a lot. It got better with time.
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2004 R1 & 2018 XSR900

[Sload]

Not to be a dick but come on now

https://www.bikechatforums.com/google.php?q=advice+on+cornering
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Honda Varadero >> Triumph Speed Four >> Honda CBR1100xx

[dolly3900]

JM, cheers for that, plan to go out for a cruise with some of the lads over the next month or so, so will watch and learn.

Sload, if I'd been riding for years and suddenly had the issue, then fine, but been a ccager for over 20 years and only had cbt for Christmas from a very kind and lovely wife, so this is all relatively new to me, that said, will check out the link later as anything which helps me become a safer and better rider is welcome.

Cheers guys

[dolly3900]

JM, cheers for that, plan to go out for a cruise with some of the lads over the next month or so, so will watch and learn.

Sload, if I'd been riding for years and suddenly had the issue, then fine, but been a ccager for over 20 years and only had cbt for Christmas from a very kind and lovely wife, so this is all relatively new to me, that said, will check out the link later as anything which helps me become a safer and better rider is welcome.

Cheers guys

[unluckyluke]

Strange as I was the opposite, had very little confidence on a 125 but as soon as I got on a 600 I felt a lot more confident. It felt more planted in the corners and with the extra effect of engine braking on a larger multi-cylinder bike I was going into the corners a lot quicker.

You just got to remember it's all in your mind, you know these corners can be taken at 60+ you just got to believe you can do it. Just find a nice route which is quiet and you know well and ride it over and over. You'll soon get faster and braver in the corners and wont find it a problem anymore.
Give it a couple of months and you'll be posting about getting your knee down!

[Teflon-Mike]

It's not necesserily 'all in the mind' and just because a 125 will go round a corner at 50 dont mean any other bike, bigger, smaller, 'better' on whatever way, MUST be able to go round any faster.

Check the lap-times & average race speeds and you will find that the differences in lap-times between bigger and smaller bikes is no where near as big as the difference in their performance specs.

The old 125GP bikes, with 1/4 the power of the 500's and half the 'speed', would typically post times, within 10% or so of the bigguns.

Go figure..... OK, I'll help.

Speed gun readings on teh straighs would show that the 500's could get up to speeds over 200mph at the faster tracks; the 250's could often get to 170 or so, the 125's would be topping out probably around 140.

So, IF the big-bikes can accelerate out the corners, twice as fast and reach a possibly 50% or higher top speed before they have to brake for the next bend.... over two or three miles.... how come the average speed is no more than 25% higher?

ONLY place the lightweights might make up time on a bike that can out pace them for acceleration and top speed, is on cornering.

Kinetic energy, what you 'dump' when you brake is mass times velocity squared. The lightweights, when they reach a corner are going slower, and they are carrying a heck of a lot less KE... so they can carry more speed further, before they have to start braking.

But, being lighter they can also tend to carry a higher mid-corner speed; so they are faster 'in' to a corner, and faster round the middle, and its only coming out, where the big-bikes can put down more power, that the lightweights start loosing out.

SO... 10mph lower 'entry speed' for a corner? That doesn't sound TOO 'wrong'.

Thing with braking is, you do get into a little self defeating cycle; you slow down, bike reacts to braking by trying to resist turning input, so as you are braking, it doesn't want to steer, you you naturally try and slow down more because it doesn'f feel like it wants to turn... slowing more or braking harder, makes the sensation worse, and feel even more like it wont turn,,, and so it goes on until a completely over-wrought rider comes to a complete halt.... hopefully before the hedge!

On a bigger bike, carrying so much more wight and inherently more 'stable' because of it, so the 'newb' will find teh difference so much more ponounced, especially if where they had been going just 60mph on a tiddler, they are now going 70-80 on the buggun.

And the big barrier is the 'tip in point' where if braking, you have to come OFF the brakes, and doing so, you get counter intuiative sensation, that the bike is 'speeding up'..... making turn in raggy' as you hesitate and 'hang' trying to get things to balence...

CONFIDENCE.

Army mantra; indecision is more lethal than the wrong decision.

BE DECISIVE.

Now... corners you would have been taking at 40 on a 125... I am going to hazard a guess, were 50mph or NSL roads... so you weren't having to slow much, if at all for them.... and you probably just rolled off, and rolled into the corner..... no brakes.

How are you doing it now?

Bit of braking happening there? (Because you are going a bit faster before the corner on the bigger bike?)

Yeah. This is how people forget the lessons they learned on a tiddler and start squidding. Over braking for corners they could hapily get round at much higher speeds on a small lower powered machine, and making up accelerating hard out using bigger bikes power; all making it a high drama, high force experience, and convincing themselves because its so dramatic and they are working and working the bike so hard, the MUST be a riding ace and must be REALLY pushing the envelope going 'quick'......

A good rider arrives at a corner at the speed they want to go around it...

The good rider, tips into the corner and almost imedietly starts to ACCELERATE 'gently' AROUND the corner...

Its ALL in the wrist.

Roll off, coast to the corner, tip in, and almost as SOON as you have the thing turning, KILL that hesitancy period, with SMALL throttle to put everything back under load, and PUSH you round the bend.

Gentle acceleration creates a bit of Centrifugal force to hold the bike up, as you lean...

Another contrary sensation; you slow down, and without centrifugal forces, you wont want to lean the bike over too much as it feels like there's nothing to stop it falling over.

But bikes STEER by LEANING... sure you can turn the handlebars more, but increasing the angle between the wheels, means that the back wheel will be trying to 'scrub' or push the front wheel more, which, like braking, the bike will react more too, trying to 'pick up'.. back to the cycle, making you want to back off more, and turn the bars more to make the same corner.

Track riding wont help you with these fundementals of technique very much.

A track is just a road, without road-markings, street furniture. Its a very surreal experience for the first timer; as you loose so much sensation and so many visual clues over how fast you are going or where corners are bending to, and they tend to be three or four times the width, making them very bizzare compared to a public road.

And, yup, you can get up to some very high speeds on a track, but the environment you achieve them in, when you get back onto a public road...... you are as likely to go EVEN SLOWER, as suddenly the scenery 'closes in' on you.

So, for where you are, and what you want to learn.... learning to do it better where you WANT to do it better is the place to learn it!

ON THE ROAD.

First Exercise. BACK OFF GO FASTER.

Sounds perverse; but; back off stop trying so hard. Don't try going so fast down the straights, don't try accelerating so hard out the corners. STOP TRYING to go faster.

Relax, let it flow, find the rhythm, go with the flow 'cruise'.

'Stop thinking - Start riding'

Let it come naturally. And like as not you WILL actually go FASTER not trying to go FAST.

First Exercise: BRAKES ARE FOR LOOSERS

Brakes. A device that turns kinetic energy into heat, and 'wastes' it, warming the environment.
Engine; a device for turning potential energy in a fuel, and turning it into Kinetic energy making you move.
Ie: you have a complicated engine, turning petrol into motion.... and brakes that take all that hard won motion and THROW IT AWAY!

Worse than that; they wear out service spares in the process! so every time you brake, you are throwing away fuel, and you are throwing away brake lining and its all costing you speed, AND money, AND safety, would you believe?

Braking be BAD I tell you!

OK... that high drama 'squidding'... feels fast because of all the high forces generated. You accelerate hard to get to speed, big forces... lots of load on the engine, transmission, chain, wheel bearings & suspension, then the back tyre. Lots of force, means lots of wear and tear on the bike. Followed my more. Hard braking. Forks compress, front tyre gets hammered, hard won energy is being wasted, and brake pads and rotors being worn out...

ALL whilst applying high forces to the machine, adding to wear and tear and service costs, AND increasing the risks of something 'letting go' under the strain of those high forces.


TYRES: all thats between you and oblivion. They can only transmit SO much grip. You can use that grip to transmit braking force OR steering force OR acceleration force, but the limit is the same. Use it ALL to transmit braking force, you wont have any left to transmit steering.... if you DONT BRAKE you have it ALL available to transmit steering force....

AND back to leaning as oposed to turning the bars... more you lean, the less 'scrubb' so the more steering force you can get for your grip.

Arrive at a corner at the speed you intend to go round it; DONT BRAKE... roll off earlier and 'coast' to the tip in; accelerate gently round; remove the hesitancy zone; get back on the throttle, GENTLY and use THAT to make the bike steer. with LEAN.

Low drama cornering; low force cornering, maximum grip available for the job of cornering, maximum margin for safety, AND less wear and tear on the bike, less fuel 'dumped' by the brakes, and MORE SPEED.

Following first exercise; stop trying so hard.... if you are going to think about it, think about the right stuff, and try to do it better, and use the brakes less, and corner 'SMOOTHER'.

Third Exercise: SMOOTH & SWIFT

Bringing it together. Dont try so hard. Relax, be 'cool'. Let it flow. Eradicate 'Drama' fro your riding, it shouldn't be hard work. Let it flow. Do it ALL 'on the throttle' as much as you can. 99% of everything is in the wrist, and tiny, tiny, little adjustments at the right time; Cool-Riding, in miles Davis cool-jazz' manner, maximum effect for minimum effort. IN the WRIST!

Aim for smoothness above all things. Fast will follow. Smooth, reduces loadings on everything, including YOU the rider. Mental ANd physical. And it stops being so much hard work, or so frazzling or worry some and a lot more enjoyable.

And you will pick up speed, and you will do it with bigger margins of safety...

AND you'll save money in more mpg and less wear and tear and servicing on the bike to boot!

Its ALL WIN.

Don't take a race track; don't take fancy lessons; don't take a big book of tricks or to be 'enlightened' into the mysteries of Keith-Code 'Counter-Steering'... it just takes a LITTLE attitude adjustment, to STOP TRYING SO HARD... and then a lot of practice... that OUGHT in consequence to be a lot more fun rather than even more 'frazzling'.

BACK OFF- GO FASTER

Just get zen with it and find your 'groove'... don't worry about it, it WILL come if you have your head in the right place to let it, and DON'T WORRY about it.

And remember... just because 'that' bike can go round a corner that fast, don't mean any other can. Likewise riders. Just because one rider can hustle a bike through a corner at such a speed wont mean you can...

Which is a warning about trying to 'clone' other riders techniques.

Big danger, that if you go out with other riders, and try to do what they do...

They are on a different bike. there's 1001 things that might make what they do work for them... but might NOT work for you.

Always ride your OWN ride.... never try copy some-one elses. you don't know what they are doing that might get you in trouble!

Next up; theres nothing to say that what THEY are doing is 'right' or even better than what you are, let alone better FOR YOU.

Always ride your own road!

Big problem with trying to learn from 'more experienced' riders, is that you will clone their riding style, faults and all, and few riders are THAT good.

At best, you might pick up a few 'ideas' you could try; but that's for you to try at your own pace and adapt TO SUIT YOU.

If you want some-one to 'Teach' you to ride a motorbike, go to a motorbike teacher. That's thier job, and they ought to teach you 'only' good stuff, and give you ideas and techniques for you to adapt and develop to help you create your OWN 'good' riding style.

But here and now; just relax, back-off - go faster. aim for smooth, build your OWN confidence, through practice. Find your own 'groove'... then worry about the next step, when you NEED more inspiration and ideas to take it further.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[mic]

im in a similar situation but i find myself thinking ive got into a corner too fast and roll the throttle OFF as i start to turn. then it wonk turn as much as id like to i start to lean more.... and accelerate at the end.

in my head i know i havent attacked the corner too fast and i should just lean more. even at slower speeds. but is the confidence to lean and keep the revs constant or rev more thru a bend i need to work on.
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zzr600

[SQL]

You just got teffed

[Teflon-Mike]

[dolly3900]

JM, cheers for that, plan to go out for a cruise with some of the lads over the next month or so, so will watch and learn.

Sload, if I'd been riding for years and suddenly had the issue, then fine, but been a ccager for over 20 years and only had cbt for Christmas from a very kind and lovely wife, so this is all relatively new to me, that said, will check out the link later as anything which helps me become a safer and better rider is welcome.

Cheers guys

[FriendlyEllis]

Watch this .... Cheesy but it helped me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjH-F7vosB0

[FriendlyEllis]

Watch this .... Cheesy but it helped me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjH-F7vosB0

[garth]

^

That, but I'd get the book. PDF copy is available to download on here somewhere.

[Slacker24seve...]

[dolly3900]

Thanks fro the advice guys, appreciate it.

In another thread somewhere here, I asked about tyres and having a squared off rear did not help the cornering confidence, so that sorted and much better now.

Also, follwed a guy the other day back from Aberystwyth playing leapfrog most of the way he did comment that whilst i was tipping the bike into the corners fine, I was myself trying to keep as upright as possible, making the whole thing unstable and wobbly.

Noticed that he was moving about a lot more than I on his seat and now have modified my riding style.

So conclusion :-
New tyre giving more confidence.
Leaning with the bike, rather than trying to push it down with one hand and drag it back up with the other, makes me more stable on it.
sliding my ar$e about a bit on the seat (not a huge amount), transfers the weight and makes the bike more stable.

Result, much happier on the twisty bits and as a consiquence, faster through them too.

Cheers again.

Mike
____________________
2002 Rieju RS2-50 (Sold, spares or repair), 2010 Suzuki DR-125SM (Traded for ->), 2007 Honda CBF 600 (Sold), 2010 Suzuki V-Strom 1000 (Briefly, now returned), 2007 Suzuki Intruder 1800m (Even More Briefly, traded in for ->), 2014 Suzuki V-Strom 650