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Doomsnite
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Teflon-Mike
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 Posted: 09:27 - 19 Nov 2013  Post subject: |
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Dont think capacity, think 'nature'.
An Aprillia RS125 'full-power' has about 28bhp and can achieve around 95-100mph. A two-stroke sports bike, with highly tuned engine its not very forgiving to ride, yet is only 125cc.
A Honda CB Two-Fifty, in comparison, is a four stroke commuter bike. It produces only 19bhp, from a very softly tuned and forgiving little engine; and is consequently very easy, if not particularly inspiring to ride.
A Suzuki RGV250 on the other hand, is another sports-bike. Around 60bhp, from a highly tuned and unforgiving engine, it too is not so newby freindly, and as fast and powerful as many bikes in the 600ish capacity class.
Kawasaki ZX6R; a 600cc sports-bike; when launched in 1997, the first production Sports 600 to make over 100bhp... again, highly tuned and not very forgiving....
Same power (more on later models) as.... ST1100 Pan European (Common cop-bike) tourer; or Suzuki GSX1400 muscle bike; or a BMW RG1200 adventure sport.
See where this is going?
Capacity, on its own is merely the size of a hole in the engine! It dont mean very much, and certainly doesn't give big clue as to what the bike is like to ride, or how newbie freindly it's likely to be.
Personally, I always say TIME ON A TIDDLER IS RARELY WASTED!... though that tiddler need not be a 125...
125s though do make good training tools; learner-legal 14.5bhp is enough to 'just' be useful and do 70mph, but you have to work hard for it. Light weight, they are not very intimidating, but they also dont have the same inherent 'stability' of heavier bikes; which means that they dont flatter a newby wobbling about a bit; and encourage them to learn to do stuff neatly and smoothly, so they dont wobble... which means when you step up to a heavier bike; a) it feels SO much easier, but also, you will have tended to have acquired a more inate sense of balence and fine control, putting you in good stead to enjoy and apreciate a larger bike as well as manage it.
Doesn't have to be forever though; 3 moths is ought to be plent y of time; and the experience and abiolity to practice unsupervised on L's means you ought not need so much expensive training on a larger bike when you come do do tests.
After that; progression would suggest something heavier and more powerful, but generally pretty 'soft'. Something that's preferably not SO refined either, so its flexible and manageable and easy to ride, but gives you a lot of rider sensation... twin cylinder motors... tend to be a bit lumpy when reved... means you aren;t so likely to catch yourself out going uber-fast without realising it... same as fairings... naked bikes putting wind blast on your body, tend to let you know when you are pressing on a bit.... then, less sophisticated suspension; they will get a bit bouncy if you start trying to chuck them around or take liberties; letting you know you aren't being all that wise with them, as well as giving the sort of clues to help you recognise when bikes start to mis-behave... LONG before that misbehaviour is likely to become dangerouse.
Bikes that fit that sort of bill? All-Rounders; the general purpose commuter twins; bikes like the Suzuki GS500, Honda CB500, Kawasaki ER5... in fact the kind of bikes that the schools stick you on to do a DAS course..... makes sense really, doesn't it?
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Doomsnite
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MC
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Posted: 10:48 - 19 Nov 2013  Post subject: |
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Decide after your CBT, but one thing I will say is you get bored of a 125, plus they're fairly expensive to buy for what they're (cheap to run tho) and insurance's a bit of a con. I'm paying 360ish for third party only for my XR 125, just got a quote on a Hornet 600 with no NCB, third party T&F £430.
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 16:29 - 19 Nov 2013 Post subject: Re: Best size beginner bike |
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Sorry to drag this back on topic. 
| Doomsnite wrote: | From experience what is best.. |
We can only do it one way each, so it's a bit tricky comparing. 
I went the 125 route, rode one for a year and had a great time on it. I wasn't in a hurry to get onto anything bigger, and enjoyed working my way up through 125 -> 250 -> 305 -> 500 -> ad astra. All fine and dandy.
But... with hindsight, I wish I'd skipped it and gone straight to the full license. While I enjoyed the smaller bikes, I enjoy the bigger ones more. I'm OK with keeping something smaller around for larks, but a bigger bike is (IME) just so much more satisfying to ride.
And bear in mind that you'll have to get your full A license on a big bike sooner or later. It might as well be sooner, you're no safer on a 125 sporting L plates, and perhaps even a bit less so.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Doomsnite
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| Posted: 16:39 - 19 Nov 2013 Post subject: Re: Best size beginner bike |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | Sorry to drag this back on topic.
| Doomsnite wrote: | From experience what is best.. |
We can only do it one way each, so it's a bit tricky comparing.
I went the 125 route, rode one for a year and had a great time on it. I wasn't in a hurry to get onto anything bigger, and enjoyed working my way up through 125 -> 250 -> 305 -> 500 -> ad astra. All fine and dandy.
But... with hindsight, I wish I'd skipped it and gone straight to the full license. While I enjoyed the smaller bikes, I enjoy the bigger ones more. I'm OK with keeping something smaller around for larks, but a bigger bike is (IME) just so much more satisfying to ride.
And bear in mind that you'll have to get your full A license on a big bike sooner or later. It might as well be sooner, you're no safer on a 125 sporting L plates, and perhaps even a bit less so. |
Thats what I meant, whether you found it worth it or not and do you hone your skills better on a smaller bike or throw in at the deep in, whilst preferably not dying in the process! |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 21:30 - 19 Nov 2013 Post subject: |
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Smaller bikes are harder to ride. Wobblier, brakes aren't that good, you need to plan manoeuvres more. So in that respect, they are good training.
But you don't have to do it the hard way, if you just get a more stable bike with better brake and acceleration.
Bear in mind that if you do a training course, it'll be on a biggish bike, but there's no reason that you can't then buy a smallish capacity bike once you're licensed up and out riding solo.
Think of it as getting your training in early when it'll help the most.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Dazbo666
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| Posted: 01:40 - 20 Nov 2013 Post subject: |
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I did Direct Access with absolutely zero bike experience. I'd been driving for a number of years, but never ridden a motorbike until the morning of my CBT.
CBT, 2x days on a 125, 2 days on a 500, and still managed to pass first time 
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Word of the day : DILLIGAF |
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 13:52 - 22 Nov 2013  Post subject: |
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| Doomsnite wrote: | Thanks for taking the time out to respond. I guess using Ls for a period should be the way to go, if nothing else to make sure i like it before spending s lot more on bikes and training. Just nice to know the training is all done and have the freedom of choice to ride what i want |
If that's your gut instinct, go with it.
A DAS course is a big chunk of wonga to find upfront, to merely get a bit of paper before you can dive in the deep-end; with no prior experience of bikes, and possibly a lot of baggage carried over from cars, it can be a lot of hard work, just to get through the course.
Teaching longer standing car drivers; often hard to get through the initial idea that its 'just getting used to the controls', it isn't; theres a lot more work to be done on a bike road-possitioning, and even if car driver doesn't have the mental block of thinking they know it all before and only have to get used to changing gear with thier foot and accelerating with thier fist; car-driving 'instinct' kicks in and they do what they do in a car... seriousely I have had car-drivers get to the T-Junction outside the school; forget to put thier feet down while reaching for the hand-brake! Can spend an awful lot of training hours following them, nagging over and over again; TURN YOUR INDY OFF, and SHOULDER CHECK! Not MIRROR!... because cars have self cancelling indicators and drivers use the mirrors and dont look over thier shoulders to see behind them!
It CAN get infuriating and frustrating for student and instructor; because they both KNOW what they are doing wrong, and that they have been tought what they should be doing.... BUT these car-driver reflexes KEEP kicking in....
And DAS training... for a complete newby, likely to be a full five day course; 5x7 hours 35 hours tops, of which, you might get what, 25 hours of saddle time? And thats ALL the saddle time you get to do your learning in; because you cant legally be on a DAS bike without instructor supervision.
Five days; in the saddle; being nagged over stuipid car driver habbits; paying an instructor day-rates, significantly not to 'teach' you very much, but merely watch you wobble, fullfilling legal requirement to let you be on the bike.
You will come out of it with a licence, but mainly through 'total immersion learning'; being in 'Bike World' for a week; eating, sleeping, talking and thinking nothing BUT 'BIKE'.... and you will like as not come out of it, with only a small amount more practical know-how than having done a CBT on a 125... only with a licence that potentially allows you to ride any bike you can afford.
Ready to start learning in the school of hard Knocks.
Some; really believe that having done a DAS thats it; they know all they need to know; and that that bit of paper that says they are allowed to jump onto a 100+bhp sports-bike means that they must also be competant enough to....
Largest number of KSI's in motorcycling are amongst this group of riders... DAS qualifying, with less than 3-years experience, on a super-sports 600 or 1000, generally used infrequently as a recreational vehicle, not every-day transport.
THAT is actually what 'saves' many of them. Lack of use. They do a few hundred sunny Sunday miles in a year, limiting thier exposure to risks, and frequently dont ride that many years; a new hobby persuit grabbing thier attension; or teh cost of the bike, palling as they realise how little use it gets.
Others come out of DAS, more cautiousely; and will pick a more sensible machine, but also quite incredible how many, having done the course and got the bike, find themselves, often secretly, utterly in awe of it; and in a crisis of confidence... relieved of that intense, 'immersion enviroment' of a DAS course, having returned to reality, and been in the car for a week or more before they pick up the new bike... and without the voices in the ear-piece breathing confidence into thier hat... "Oh My Godd! What do I DO!? I cant remember a THING!"
These are very real 'dangers' of an intensive DAS course. I am biased; I never enjoyed DAS instructing, I simply found it tedius in the extreme; and I saw far too many middle aged revin-kevins; deturmined to get straight onto the fastest most audaciouse bit of machinary the mags were raving about; who unlike the teenagers to whom such aspirations remained some-what etherial due to finances; you knew these chaps could go get tomorrow, and justify as being cheaper than trading in the Beemer, for an extra year!
HOWEVER; as a tool, it can be useful. And as said, Time on a Tiddler doesn't have to be on a learner-legal. Do DAS, go get a lightweight; Maybe a 250 commuter or a dirt-bike to do your early wobbling on.
But. Five day DAS? Its probably going to be £1000 or so for the course, whether you get a licence from it or not. Whatever the cost; its half your annual leave to go do it. And rather than relaxing on some sunny beach drinking cocktails... you'll be stick in leathers, being nagged by a git like me, whilst sweating or freezing and knackering yourself out, trying to do everything your told and remember everything your told, working to the deadline of the test apointments, under pressure to get it all 'nailed'. And ALL you have to show for it is the licence. IF you pass.
Do the 125 'Thing'? Bike? Provided you look after it; buy-price less sell-price? Ought to be withing a couple of hundred quid. Insurance? Maybe a couple of hundred more. Cost of ownership, maybe £500. That's the stake on the table. Rather than £1000 up-front for teh course, before whatever the cost-of-ownership on a 'big-bike' hots you for to get to the same place.
Meanwhile; you do your CBT, you can then go 'potter' and pin pace, without the pressure. And you can practice stuff as much as you want, pretty much for the cost of petrol alone; and rack up as many saddle hours before tests as you like.
And 125's are not toy bikes. Yes, their performance is frustratingly limited; BUT; 70mph, is still max speed limit in the UK, and 125's can usually do that, or at least get close enough! Round town, in 20,30,40,50 limits? They are in thier element, and light weight and maneuverability is positive advantage; popping to the bank or to the hardware shop; knowing I have got to weave through the school-run mums, and battle with the blue-badge brigade in town? I take Snowies (My O/H) 125. Its what its built for, and excells at the job. 125's, as long as you accept and work within thier limitations, can be very useful motorcycles in thier own right, NOT just as a training tool. I certainly get a grin every time I pass a petrol station, knowing I'm getting 70-80 to the gallon from the thing! Might not cover them miles very fast, BUT... hours in the saddle is hours in the saddle; and 125's giving me four times as many for my money! (Twice the miles per gallon, half the miles per hour!)
So you can get a lot of fun, and a lot of learning, and a lot of money's worth from a 125. WITHOUT having to lay down big money on spec; without anoying the missus telling her its only going to be seven days in Ibeza not fourteen, cos you cant get the time off work; or putting yourself into the pressure-pot, to get it all done in a oner.
Licence... IF it all gels and the tiddler does get frustrating still has to be done.... but, lot more confidence you will get your moneys worth, and like as not you'd only need three days training, which you can probably book over a long weekend, without hitting the holliday allocation; and not having to find so much money, or put yourself under such pressure to learn SO much in such a short time.
RUSHING is a FAST way to come to grief when it comes to motorbikes!
And that applies to a lot of stuff, not just the obvious trying to ride too fast!
Me? I started out as a precociouse school-boy, riding dirt. I competed in school-boy trials, and by the time I was allowed a 50 on the road, I'd been riding 500's off-road for three years!
I tried rushing.... it was a long time ago, before CBT let alone DAS rules, and bike schools were few and far between; but through trials I knew of one, and booked an intensive course; expecting to have my full licence within weeks of being 17.
Complete bludy abortion & I failed the first wobble round the block test; was aborted on the second, and stuffed. I had a 500 sat in the garage I couldn't ride... and eventually had to bite the bullet and buy a 125. Which I spent two and a half years on; getting my licence in the process and 'serving my... time on a tiddler'; and I dont regret it in the slightest.
I admit; I was 19 and a lot more supple and stupid... and it may be old age or rose tinted spex, but I remember making epic 100mile plus journeys on that bike, and not getting off it with quite such a numb bumb or reluctance to get back on, as I do now, after an hour on Snowies!
But... held me back, and did me a lot of good.
"Before you try going quick... learn to go slow"
That little nugget was offered to me by an 'old' chap (He was probably no older than I am now! But, I was about twelve at the time!) With a Triumph Tiger Cub trials-chop in the council garages near where I walked the dog. I was all enthused by the idea of 'Scrambling'.. and trying to save all my pocket money to buy a bike. Chap talked me into giving trials a try; explaining how much cheaper and more accessible it was, and still is; and how 'All' the racing Hero's do 'Winter-Trials' in the off-season, to keep in shape and hone thier skills.... don't think that had quite been true for twenty years, then... but still; It was good advice, and still valid.
Take it easy.... go slow, enjoy the journey; there's no rush; and starting small, taking baby steps; doing the tiddler thing; making it EASY for yourself; can be as satisfying and far more rewarding than rushing in and trying to do it all in one.
Roger, reckons given a second chance he'd do DAS, and has muttered a number of times about how much he was 'missing' on the bigger bikes, spending so long on lightweights.... Often heard; BUT folk that do DAS miss so much learning on lightweights and often dont apreciate the bigger bikes, having not served thier time on a tiddler, so dont even know WHY it's 'nicer', let alone apreciate it.
So like I said, if its your gut to go with a 125, follow it. Its first bike, not once and forever only bike; take it at your own pace; enjoy it for what it is and what it will let you do; and progress at your own rate from there.... there's plenty of time to do the big-bike thing as well, IF you want to, WHEN you want to.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Ribenapigeon
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| Posted: 22:26 - 23 Nov 2013 Post subject: |
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Just to get some pleasure from my age, hehee, my WR125X was around £200 fully comp and my XJ6 is a tad cheaper also fully comp 
As for time on a tiddler. I eventually spent over a year on my WR but it was after about five months I really felt confident enough to start taking tests. Took ages after that due to waiting list for the theory and heaps of cancellations of tests during the winter. Eventually passed Mod 2 on my own on the WR in february then did the tests again for the big bike licence in may and passed. Im probably one of the few people to have passed my Mods twice |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 12 years, 69 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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Daylight robbery. £319 for my 125cc bike seems like good value after that.
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