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Deerhound
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 12 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 21 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spudly wrote:
Deerhound wrote:
When will drivers get it into their heads it's NOT 'road tax' it's vehicle tax (Vehicle Excise Duty to be precise), meaning one is charged depending on their choice of vehicle, not for being on the road. That's not to mention that many cyclists already pay VED on other vehicles they own Rolling Eyes


Conversely, when will cyclists get it through their heads that most people couldn't give a shit what it's called

Actually, it does make a difference. People who think it's 'road tax' think that no one who doesn't pay it should be on the road. Point it out to them that it's their decision to drive a car that's being charged and they realise that the road doesn't 'belong' to them just because they pay tax to use it.

It's a subtle but important difference.
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Spudly
World Chat Champion



Joined: 04 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: 18:05 - 21 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Deerhound wrote:
Actually, it does make a difference. People who think it's 'road tax' think that no one who doesn't pay it should be on the road. Point it out to them that it's their decision to drive a car that's being charged and they realise that the road doesn't 'belong' to them just because they pay tax to use it.

It's a subtle but important difference.


Subtle, yes, important, no.

Again, you are missing the point. I think deliberately, but if not, I'll have one more go.

No one cares what it's called. In the vernacular, it's known as 'tax' on the car, hence 'going to the post office to put tax on my car' or 'shit, my car ran out of tax' or even 'here we go, another pedantic cyclist pulling out the "not actually road tax" argument.' No one gives a shit about the semantics, the fact is, car users have to obtain a disc ('tax disc' in the vernacular) as one of the things required to legally be on the road. Cyclists don't.

But, ask a policeman, they will tell you cyclists must obey the road rules. Observe a cyclist, they invariably proceed through red lights, go from footpath to road to footpath, don't indicate or signal their intent and generally behave like arseholes on the road.

To make things worse, cyclists don't need insurance to be on the road. How often do you think an accident has been caused by a car swerving to avoid a fool on a cycle? I don't have any figures, but I suspect it happens more often than any existing numbers.

The fact is, drivers who get annoyed at cyclists generally get annoyed because they are paying VED, tax on petrol/diesel, compulsory insurance and council parking charges as well as any tickets and fines they get, while watching some lycra clad twat undertake them, blast through red lights, ride up the wrong side of the road then swerve up onto the footpath, barely missing a pedestrian and hopping back onto the road again, all the while waving its fist and swearing at the car which had the temerity to not be dead centre of its lane.

So, you tell me, when are cyclists going to clean up their acts instead of being smug arrogant twats with a self obsessed attitude that everyone owes them the road.

Just to reiterate my previous point, because it appears you didn't read far enough to catch it earlier, physics doesn't give much of a shit about subtle semantic points. If you ride a motorbike, you already know cagers don't see you very well. That's probably twice as applicable for cyclists.

You want to stop situations such as the one in the OP? The answer is "Be obvious on the road and stop cyclists from being twats on the road".
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Deerhound
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 12 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: 19:08 - 21 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spudly wrote:
the fact is, car users have to obtain a disc ('tax disc' in the vernacular) as one of the things required to legally be on the road. Cyclists don't.

Not all car users have to either. It doesn't give them less of a right to be on the road.

Spudly wrote:
But, ask a policeman, they will tell you cyclists must obey the road rules.

I don't think anyone here has said otherwise.

Spudly wrote:
Observe a cyclist, they invariably proceed through red lights, go from footpath to road to footpath, don't indicate or signal their intent and generally behave like arseholes on the road.

Not invariably, no.

Spudly wrote:
To make things worse, cyclists don't need insurance to be on the road.

Nor do pedestrians, who can and do cause accidents.

Spudly wrote:
So, you tell me, when are cyclists going to clean up their acts instead of being smug arrogant twats with a self obsessed attitude that everyone owes them the road.

Not all cyclists are like that; some car drivers and motorbike riders are. It's not the vehicle, it's the person.

Spudly wrote:
Just to reiterate my previous point, because it appears you didn't read far enough to catch it earlier, physics doesn't give much of a shit about subtle semantic points. If you ride a motorbike, you already know cagers don't see you very well. That's probably twice as applicable for cyclists.

That's not relevant to my point that car drivers have no more right to be on the road than cyclists (or motorbikes or lorries, etc.).

Spudly wrote:
You want to stop situations such as the one in the OP? The answer is "Be obvious on the road and stop cyclists from being twats on the road".

Again, not relevant - I was talking about drivers' attitudes to who the road 'belongs' to, not how likely it is for cyclists to be noticed.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 19:33 - 22 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Deerhound wrote:
When will drivers get it into their heads it's NOT 'road tax' it's vehicle tax (Vehicle Excise Duty to be precise), meaning one is charged depending on their choice of vehicle, not for being on the road.


And a bicycle is a vehicle, therefore no real reason why they should not also pay duty to use that vehicle on the road

All the best

Keith
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 21:42 - 24 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
sabian92 wrote:

Banging your tax wanker drum in here as well I see... Rolling Eyes


Whatever. Try answering the points raised.
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JonB
Afraid of Mileage



Joined: 03 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 24 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
It'd be nice if everyone just accept that people ride bicycles, people drive cars, people drive lorries, people walk and people ride motorbikes.

As one band called Slipknot once had a song aptly titled: -

People = Shit.

The VED argument winds me up because I suspect in at least 50% of cases I pay far more tax a year than the person arguing.

For the record I also have third party liability insurance and I pay VED for the car I drive.

Ironically people get shirty with the "lycra louts", yet they are more likely to be responsible cyclists with regards to the laws of the road and third party insurance.

The issue I have is with "commuter" or "utility" cyclists. Guess what? They all ride in urban areas.
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JonB
Afraid of Mileage



Joined: 03 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 24 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:

And a bicycle is a vehicle, therefore no real reason why they should not also pay duty to use that vehicle on the road

All the best

Keith

Actually Keith, I hate to disagree but VED is currently levied on CO2 emissions of a vehicle. A bicycle and the human riding it emit less than 100g of CO2 per KM, therefore they are currently exempt from vehicle duty anyway.

Believe it or not, there are cars that are also exempt and they actually have proper engines powered by fossil fuels.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 22:01 - 24 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
JonB wrote:

Actually Keith, I hate to disagree but VED is currently levied on CO2 emissions of a vehicle. A bicycle and the human riding it emit less than 100g of CO2 per KM, therefore they are currently exempt from vehicle duty anyway.

Believe it or not, there are cars that are also exempt and they actually have proper engines powered by fossil fuels.


That is comparatively recent (basically the latest excuse for an already existing tax), and certainly not the case for motorcycles or most road vehicle groups. Further it is bizarre that it is related to the potential to emit CO2 rather than the actual CO2 (which is already directly taxed for an individual fuel as fuel duty).

After all a 120mpg CG125 is managing about 55g/km yet is still having to pay £17 a year VED.

All the best

Keith
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JonB
Afraid of Mileage



Joined: 03 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 22:08 - 24 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
That is comparatively recent (basically the latest excuse for an already existing tax), and certainly not the case for motorcycles or most road vehicle groups. Further it is bizarre that it is related to the potential to emit CO2 rather than the actual CO2 (which is already directly taxed for an individual fuel as fuel duty).

After all a 120mpg CG125 is managing about 55g/km yet is still having to pay £17 a year VED.

All the best

Keith

It's a valid point Keith, but we can't sit here blaming cyclists for the Government's confusing VED system.

Besides even after the theory behind a VED for cyclists, given that the practicalities of registering every singled bicycle owned in the UK is pretty much impossible, you couldn't do it.

A 2011 report and commissioned by Sky and British Cycling, but cycling overall contributes over £3bn a year to the UK economy and it is growing at a ridiculous rate. Yet is also saving the NHS hundreds of millions of pounds due to increased health benefits.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/aug/21/cycling-3bn-uk-economy-study
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 22:26 - 24 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
JonB wrote:

It's a valid point Keith, but we can't sit here blaming cyclists for the Government's confusing VED system.


I don't, but I see no reason for them to be taxed differently. Personally I would prefer it if that resulted in the elimination of VED.

My real point is that we have it rammed down our throats that it is VED and not road tax, and is not related to paying for the roads, in which case as it is just general taxation there is no real excuse for it not to be raised fairly on all groups; probably based on ability to pay.

JonB wrote:
Besides even after the theory behind a VED for cyclists, given that the practicalities of registering every singled bicycle owned in the UK is pretty much impossible, you couldn't do it.


It would likely be comparatively easy with a couple of years lead time. No registration would mean instant nicking. While it would certainly help pin liability on cyclists for their actions I am not really sure it is necessary.

JonB wrote:
A 2011 report and commissioned by Sky and British Cycling, but cycling overall contributes over £3bn a year to the UK economy and it is growing at a ridiculous rate. Yet is also saving the NHS hundreds of millions of pounds due to increased health benefits.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/aug/21/cycling-3bn-uk-economy-study


Given who commissioned it, I could be interested to read that. for example looks like from that article that they are factoring in congestion, yet as the cost of congestion is journies taking longer have they factored in the cost of the slower cycle journies?

All the best

Keith
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sabian92
World Chat Champion



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 24 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
sabian92 wrote:

Banging your tax wanker drum in here as well I see... Rolling Eyes


Whatever. Try answering the points raised.


Also I take issue with the vehicle comment. Legally it isn't a vehicle as it's not mechanically propelled.

So there.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 23:19 - 24 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
sabian92 wrote:

Also I take issue with the vehicle comment. Legally it isn't a vehicle as it's not mechanically propelled.

So there.


Err, where is that definition? The only one I know of is to define things as a motor vehicle and I have never claimed it to be a motor vehicle.

And a bicycle certainly falls under the Oxford English Dictionairy definition of a vehicle:-

a thing used for transporting people or goods, especially on land, such as a car, lorry, or cart:

Keith
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sabian92
World Chat Champion



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: 00:26 - 25 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
sabian92 wrote:

Also I take issue with the vehicle comment. Legally it isn't a vehicle as it's not mechanically propelled.

So there.


Err, where is that definition? The only one I know of is to define things as a motor vehicle and I have never claimed it to be a motor vehicle.

And a bicycle certainly falls under the Oxford English Dictionairy definition of a vehicle:-

a thing used for transporting people or goods, especially on land, such as a car, lorry, or cart:

Keith


In the Highway Code. it's why speed limits don't apply to bicycles.
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Mark_F
Crazy Courier



Joined: 22 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 06:17 - 25 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
sabian92 wrote:

In the Highway Code. it's why speed limits don't apply to bicycles.


Speed limits don't apply to bicycles because they are not motor vehicles. They are still vehicles hence most of the highway code still applies...
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Spudly
World Chat Champion



Joined: 04 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: 09:43 - 25 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
sabian92 wrote:


In the Highway Code. it's why speed limits don't apply to bicycles.


*Citation needed.

No seriously, show me the text.

Of course it's a bloody vehicle. Of course it's mechanically propelled. Make some sense, will you?
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map
Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 10:26 - 25 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
sabian92 wrote:
In the Highway Code. it's why speed limits don't apply to bicycles.

The cyclist lobby often quote rule 124 of the Highway Code as the associated table does not include bicycles...
Highway Code rule 124 wrote:
...Speed limits
124

You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your vehicle (see the table below). The presence of street lights generally means that there is a 30 mph (48 km/h) speed limit unless otherwise specified.
Law RTRA sects 81, 86, 89 & sch 6
The RTRA sections 81, 86 and 89 refer to motor vehicles. The Schedule 6 is the table in the highway code.

IMHO another example of how cyclists lobby extrapolates this and believe no laws actually apply to them. I think this just paints them as arrogant SOBs.

Ok, they have wriggle room with speed limits don't apply to them. Perhaps they should? Perhaps cyclists should take responsibility Shocked Nah! who am I kidding, the Lycra clad brigade will not do that, it's all someone else's fault Rolling Eyes . After all they're being fit and healthy, green and helping the environment. Boris says so too so that has to be right. I wish the biker lobby would adopt some of this stance.
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Entertwainer
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 13 May 2013
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 25 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
i'm part of a large online bicycle community and this subject raises the same arguments/discussions/opinions and all the other banter/abuse that comes with it. etc.
the publicity really brings things out of proportion and every attitude, law, legislation is scrutinised to the nth degree.

What i feel is that Emma's attitude is indicative of one that spans across many cultures in this country.
a careless approach to how their actions may affect others or even themselves - in this case, its a consequence to an impulse in the form of her Tweet - reasons being, she may have tweeted because of an arrogance in her driving attitude, naivity in her perspective of the world and how others should be treated).

if every case was brought out like this, we'd have re-instated the death penalty, and be hanging people for 'squirting screen wash while a motocyclist is behind the vehicle'....

people do worse, and come off a lot better than Emma Way - and still probably have their jobs.
not saying she's innocent in all this, but i'm willing to bet heavily the outcome of this would been vastly more mild if it had not been brought into the public eye as much.

Its all getting very Brasseye......

me thinks the world may be better off if we werent subject to everyones thoughts and opinions in such an accessible way.....including my own.
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UnknownStuntm...
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: 13:09 - 25 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
map wrote:
I wish the biker lobby would adopt some of this stance.


Some of them do, they just don't bleat about it.

This thread is full of arguments and it's frankly ridiculous. Fact is, that blonde dimwit hit a bloke on a bike. She knew she'd hit him, but she drove off.

The world seems to be intent on focussing on what she did with social media afterwards, or the legitimacy of riding a pushbike on the road. You're all missing the point - here it is:

She is a twat. She deserves all the abuse she gets NOT because of her inability to soshall-meeja, but because she is a twat.
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 25 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
As with any other group of road users that suffer high preventable death rates the answer is to legislate, have training compulsory, have identification compulsory, have protective wear compulsory, have insurance compulsory, tax them. Make them responsible for their own actions, make them follow some basic rules that they can be held against with fines imposed for infringements.
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sabian92
World Chat Champion



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: 18:46 - 25 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Skudd wrote:
As with any other group of road users that suffer high preventable death rates the answer is to legislate, have training compulsory, have identification compulsory, have protective wear compulsory, have insurance compulsory, tax them. Make them responsible for their own actions, make them follow some basic rules that they can be held against with fines imposed for infringements.


None of those things will stop deaths of vulnerable road users. Motorised vehicles are forced to have all of those things and drivers still die in car/car collisions.

Stats prove that the majority of vehicle-cyclist collisions are in fact fault of the driver so again, it's driving like a dick that is the problem, not cycling like a tard.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 19:23 - 25 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
sabian92 wrote:
None of those things will stop deaths of vulnerable road users. Motorised vehicles are forced to have all of those things and drivers still die in car/car collisions.

Stats prove that the majority of vehicle-cyclist collisions are in fact fault of the driver so again, it's driving like a dick that is the problem, not cycling like a tard.


https://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/584/559/018.jpg
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 20:29 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
sabian92 wrote:
In the Highway Code. it's why speed limits don't apply to bicycles.


As said that is motor vehicle. They are still a vehicle, legally counting as a carriage I believe (case law from 1879).

Map wrote:
IMHO another example of how cyclists lobby extrapolates this and believe no laws actually apply to them. I think this just paints them as arrogant SOBs.


While the specific limits don't apply, but there is an offence of riding furiously (1847 Town Police Clauses Act), and also if they injure someone then they can be prosecuted for furious.

All the best

Keith
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Frog
Traffic Copper



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PostPosted: 00:36 - 27 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
map wrote:
ill-informed stereotyping


In exactly the same way that all motorcyclists ride at 90,000,000 MPH whilst killing every kitten in sight.

I suspect you may live and/or work in the city. Which definately has "worse" cyclists than more rural areas but even then, I suspect a large percentage, if not the majority, obey traffic laws.

I agree with some of the points you made - some sort of licensing/training, insurance, etc. would definately help. But then so would ensuring drivers don't squeeze past you / ram you off the road just avoid wasting a few seconds which they'll most likely make up after they've overtaken you anyway.

A while ago, I started to get quite angry with car drivers in general, so as an experiment, I counted how many drivers were OK, how many gave plenty of space (as in the highway code), and how many cut me up.

The number of idiots was pretty low, but until I counted, it felt much higher.

You always notice the ones that annoy you... they stand out more.
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TheBikerStig
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PostPosted: 11:22 - 03 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Does anyone here know if Emma Way is dead yet? My condolences to cyclists if she isnt, bloody stupid fish she is.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 11 years, 239 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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