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dydey90
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Another Scottish Independence thread Reply with quote

Thoughts?

Seems to be all roast beef for everybody and beer will be a penny a pint.
One of the things I saw in the twitter feed though "There will be no border controls between Scotland and England". So that means all that Scotland would have to do is drop their VAT rate to less than England and suddenly every import gets re-routed there.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 13:01 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see any mention of the North Sea in the article. Will have to give the PDF a reading over, it's not loading for me right now.

Without that decision, well...

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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 13:27 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

The single biggest argument I can see for Scottish Independance is nothing Alex Salmond claims will or will not happen, it's that the Tory party are so set against it.

They claim Scotland is costing the rest of the UK money and they certainly don't derive any political advantage. There would never have been a labour majority if it wasn't for the Scottish vote and there is only one Scottish Tory MP.

So why are they so opposed to Scotland dissolving the act of union? What's in Scotland for them other than a testing ground for future, potentially unpopular policies (nobody votes for them anyway so what is there to loose?) and somewhere sufficiently far away from Westminster to store their nuclear deterrant?
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 13:42 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears that the English want separation more than the Scotch do.
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming it also means Scotland's withdrawal from the EU, I'd imagine the rest of us in WhatsleftoftheUK will watch with interest to see how that works out. Maybe we'll try it ourselves one day.

It does make Scotland look a bit like a grumbly teenager though: "This place is crap, I hate living here, you're all horrible, I'm leaving!"
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Bubbs
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PostPosted: 14:47 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it works out for Scotland then Wales will be next... or England will be next and Wales will be forced.

I don't honestly see the need.
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charlie74
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

everyone in the uk should ask for their hardcopy version of the docs
that way they have the facts

it will also send a message to the SNP as they have only a limited fund to print it all, but promised a physical copy to anyone who asked

i do belive that salmond is playing on the emotional side to try and push this through as there are no solid answers yet on the key issues the main being the continued use of sterling
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 15:25 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm behind Independence 100% for far too long Scotland has suffered due to Westminster pandering to the south
and ignoring the Scottish peoples wishes and having to live under governments we never voted for

let Scotland decide Scotland's future

as to the EU well we have probably a better chance of staying in the EU if we are independent
as it looks like most of the tory's and UKIP seem to want to take Britain out again against the wishes of most Scots
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map
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PostPosted: 15:33 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bubbs wrote:
If it works out for Scotland then Wales will be next... or England will be next and Wales will be forced...

Someone high up in the Welsh parliament bit has already said they'd oppose the plans if Scotland's use of the GB Pound with interest rate fiddling etc. was likely to affected Welsh people. Which as far as I can see will.

I can't see how as a government they can keep the GB Pound as currency (I know they print their own funny money) when interest rates and supply of that currency is outside their control. That said I haven't been looking too hard.

Also as I understand it the Tories would benefit from independence as I'm assuming all those Scottish labour MPs would not trundle down on expenses to London and vote here. So Labour lose MPs. So I'm thinking is it to the Tories credit that they want a United Kingdom?

Confused Thinking
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Nexus Icon
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let them go. Scotland will be fine as long as they up the tax on sausage rolls, Special Brew and heroin.

NB: I get all my political viewpoints from television and films.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

To split the country based on short-term vote winning would be utterly ridiculous.

As a politician I'd do a fair amount to whore votes, but splitting the country in two is a bit far. Laughing
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 15:37 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

map wrote:
Also as I understand it the Tories would benefit from independence as I'm assuming all those Scottish labour MPs would not trundle down on expenses to London and vote here. So Labour lose MPs. So I'm thinking is it to the Tories credit that they want a United Kingdom? need the billions from Scotland's oil to prop up there banks & bonuses

Confused Thinking


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Benno
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PostPosted: 15:37 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

The northern north-western corner of the southern region of central Norfolk doesn't need the UK as much as the UK needs the northern north-western corner of the southern region of central Norfolk.
Bill, his wife, and their two neighbours, the Maceys and the Joneses, are much better off than the rest of Norfolk and frankly are tired of other Norfolkians being able to walk freely on their land, and of their taxes and hard work being put to waste propping up other Norfolkians. Furthermore, the northern north-western corner of the southern region of central Norfolk provides 50 times more beeswax (from Mr Jones' beehive) per head than the rest of Norfolk. Average income in the area is also 200 times higher than the rest of Norfolk and the (9) local residents tend to have higher paying jobs and a better education than other Norfolkians.

There is simply no logical reason for the northern north-western corner of the southern region of central Norfolk to remain as part of the union of Norfolk, nor as part of the greater UK. I urge all our citizens to vote YES in the upcoming referendum. I'll be coming over in five minutes with tea and biscuits for Dr Who night and we can discuss our becoming a new country.


---


Residents of the village of Isolationton, in mid Kent, have voted yes to independence today.

Average income in the village is three times higher than the national average. It is also responsible for producing twice as much dairy milk per capita than the average UK citizen thanks to Mr Hardacre's dairy farm. The average pension is £0.73 higher than the UK average, and the village is surrounded by natural resources including timber, arable fields, and cows, that they frankly feel they have more of a right to than the rest of the UK. However, mainly due to all of this, the residents of Isolationton paid 3% more taxes than the UK average.
Feeling that this was a totally unjust situation the residents - now citizens - have elected to form their own new country. New passports are being issued, produced in China at minimal cost, although they have not yet figured out how to introduce a new currency since most of the residents are retirees and farmers.


---


Tim has elected to declare his personal independence as a sovereign nation-person, seceding his person from the sovereign nation that is the UK. As of this moment, according to Tim, his body and whatever he is wearing at any given moment constitutes his sovereign territory, and strict visa controls are required to enter. His wife, unfortunately, failed the visa application and was deported back to the UK on foot.

Tim says that since his income is higher than the UK average, he has access to many more natural resources than others due to his exceedingly advantageous mobile geographic position, and that his productivity over the course of his working life so far has been 0.22% above UK average, he feels that it is unfair to have to pay taxes to prop up institutions that serve those that do not work as hard as he does. He has made a net contribution to net leeching ratio of 2:1.993, and so naturally he feels as though he has been exploited by the state and those lazy people that do not work quite as hard.

As a result his independence has been declared. The TDF (Tim's Defence Forces) have promised to brutally repel any invader, and are reportedly armed with fingernails and a long stick in case force projection is ever required - Tim has stated that he has the reputation, know how, cultural attitude and economic prowess to be a major power and recognised on the international stage. He was appalled when the UN did not even respond to his demand for a seat on the permanent security council.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:55 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

angryjonny wrote:
Assuming it also means Scotland's withdrawal from the EU, I'd imagine the rest of us in WhatsleftoftheUK

Nothing left.

We're not talking about a region succeeding from a union, we're talking about the dissolution of that union.

The UK is a union of the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England (and her possessions), as notional peers.

If "Scotland leaves", that union dissolves, and there is no United Kingdom to be a member of the EU. Really.

You think not? Why? Scotland would (notionally) have an equal claim to that seat at the table.

One out = both out.

Some people might view that as an opportunity, rather than a problem.


angryjonny wrote:
It does make Scotland look a bit like a grumbly teenager though: "This place is crap, I hate living here, you're all horrible, I'm leaving!"

No argument there.

Scottish independence means hating England enough to bite the hand that subsidies us.

Anyone who tells you otherwise, well, see how RAGEFACE they get when you suggest that's the real story.
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whitmorereans
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PostPosted: 15:57 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldpink wrote:
I'm behind Independence 100% for far too long Scotland has suffered due to Westminster pandering to the south
and ignoring the Scottish peoples wishes and having to live under governments we never voted for

let Scotland decide Scotland's future

as to the EU well we have probably a better chance of staying in the EU if we are independent
as it looks like most of the tory's and UKIP seem to want to take Britain out again against the wishes of most Scots


Its not just Scotland's future that'll be affected, this referendum will have serious ramifications for everyone in the UK. That a relatively small percentage of the population of my country gets to decide the future for all of us is absurd. As absurd as proposing to partition our country along mythical lines for the benefit of vain, populist gobsh*tes like salmond.
I see no merit whatsoever in separation. If the nats really gave a toss about Scotland they would do what I do and push for a new constitutional settlement for all of the UK, ie federalism for Britain.
I spent a few years living in Russia, and expats tend to migrate towards each other. This is when I learnt that there's far more that binds us together in the UK than sets us apart, we were Brits, not just English or Scottish.
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ThoughtContro...
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PostPosted: 16:04 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldpink wrote:
So I'm thinking is it to the Tories credit that they want a United Kingdom? need the billions from Scotland's oil to prop up there banks & bonuses

Confused Thinking


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Have you allowed for what likely belongs to the Orcadians and Zetlanders? Last I was up Orkney they regarded themselves as more Old Norse than Buckfast swilling Jocks.
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instigator
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PostPosted: 16:17 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roll on Friday 19th September 2014 so we can seek closure on this fucking boring topic.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 16:40 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the plans is for Scotland to have its own military. It would be really annoying if Scotland gained independence and then a few years down the line there was an England-Scotland war over the North Sea oil.

Because that's the main thing that's gonna cause the most quarrelling, if the vote does end up with the UK ending.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 16:40 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I point out to the panel that Sterling is a freely tradeable currency and that anyone who wants to use it, can use it.

The Bank of England do not have a say in this matter.

It should also be pointed out that the Scottish banks hold enormous quantities of Bank of England currency in the form of massive denomination banknotes, which are lodged with the Bank of England on a nightly basis as the underpinning of their own banknotes.
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Last edited by stinkwheel on 16:43 - 26 Nov 2013; edited 1 time in total
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 16:41 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
If "Scotland leaves", that union dissolves, and there is no United Kingdom to be a member of the EU. Really.

You think not? Why? Scotland would (notionally) have an equal claim to that seat at the table.

One out = both out.

In which case surely the whole UK gets a vote, not just the Scots. How is this even legal?

Maybe those of us who live in England, Cymru and Norn Arland can get in first with our own referendum and leave Scotland.

Not that I really want to. Why you make us so sad Scootland? Was it something we said? Too much cricket and not enough caber-tossing?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 16:46 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

In which case surely the whole UK gets a vote, not just the Scots. How is this even legal?


England seemed to consider the original Scottish parliament voting itself out of existance was good enough to form the Union.
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 16:53 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

angryjonny wrote:
Why you make us so sad Scootland? Was it something we said? Too much cricket and not enough caber-tossing?


I don't mind the cricket (I shouldn't mention the Ashes) its all to do with the Scottish people getting away from an English based parliament
I doubt Londoners would be happy if the parliament was run from Scotland and voted in by mostly Scottish voters
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 16:58 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sturgeon (are all Scottish Ministers fish?) still thinks Scatland will get the Type 23 warship contract in the event of independence... too funny! Even if they buy 1 or 2, that isn't going to give them workshare equal to all of the ships combined.

Other than that, it looks like a free stuff bribe attempt with no way to pay for it. Are Scottish voters smart enough to see through it? Personally Scatland leaving suits me just fine (fewer Labour MPs, end to paying for free uni for Scots etc).

Lord Percy wrote:
One of the plans is for Scotland to have its own military. It would be really annoying if Scotland gained independence and then a few years down the line there was an England-Scotland war over the North Sea oil.

Because that's the main thing that's gonna cause the most quarrelling, if the vote does end up with the UK ending.


Such a war would be bad for England, since Scotland doesn't have anything worth bombing.
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whitmorereans
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PostPosted: 17:02 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldpink wrote:
angryjonny wrote:
Why you make us so sad Scootland? Was it something we said? Too much cricket and not enough caber-tossing?


I don't mind the cricket (I shouldn't mention the Ashes) its all to do with the Scottish people getting away from an English based parliament
I doubt Londoners would be happy if the parliament was run from Scotland and voted in by mostly Scottish voters

If that's your motivation then I would be more concerned with getting away from a Brussels based parliament. At least Westminster is populated by your kith and kin.
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 17:03 - 26 Nov 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:


England seemed to consider the original Scottish parliament voting itself out of existance was good enough to form the Union.



Well the loss of sovereignty is often the price for a bailout.

Cyprus lost theirs, as did Greece when they needed a bailout.

China lost theirs in the USSR, China pact whereby a loan of $300 million was given to China. China actually paid it back.

Scotland lost theirs when they sunk £400,000 into the Darien scheme and wanted somebody to pony up for those losses.
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