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Moto3 Pre-GP Student Bike project

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Hoffy
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PostPosted: 22:48 - 05 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
So from clicking the link, im not sure if you want to show and tell about your project, or ask us to fund it ?
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Nick 50
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PostPosted: 23:12 - 05 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Can I ask, have you ran a carbon swing-arm through any sort of Finite Elements Analysis? What were the results?
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krarkol
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PostPosted: 23:21 - 05 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
14 people who would have the knowledge to build something like this should be able to make $8000 in no time without asking others to donate. Confused
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bmemotostuden...
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Joined: 05 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: 23:26 - 05 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nick 50 wrote:
Can I ask, have you ran a carbon swing-arm through any sort of Finite Elements Analysis? What were the results?


Yes, of course Nick. It certainly looks promising, however, the final design is still to be worked on.
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bmemotostuden...
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PostPosted: 23:27 - 05 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
krarkol wrote:
14 people who would have the knowledge to build something like this should be able to make $8000 in no time without asking others to donate. Confused


Unfortunately, that's not the case in second-world countries! Smile
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krarkol
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PostPosted: 23:51 - 05 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Guaranteed you all have more money than me Laughing and if 14 people had the amount of money I have, that would make a bit over the $8000 you require Wink
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Scythe
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PostPosted: 00:35 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
That carbon swing arm will be a nightmare. I'd be interested to see how you've conducted FEA on carbon fibre, as it's not an easy task.
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Frost
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PostPosted: 05:01 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think that the main problem is that each carbon part is slightly different to the model and behave differently. Ducati use them on their GP bikes.

https://www.ducati.org/forums/attachments/racing/12141d1236124021-gp09-carbon-fiber-swing-arm-_tin7319b.jpg

They've struggled to build the right amount of flex into them.
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Ste
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Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 10:12 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
You want us to fund your attempt at building a bike and then racing it?

What experience has your team got with building bikes and racing bikes?

Carbon fibre fibre fairings an swingarm sound expensive, on a very limited budget is that really the best use of funds?

Why choose a relatively low powered engine for the bike?

Which parts will you be making yourselves or are you just assembling it?
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Scythe
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PostPosted: 10:54 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Frost wrote:
I think that the main problem is that each carbon part is slightly different to the model and behave differently. Ducati use them on their GP bikes.

https://www.ducati.org/forums/attachments/racing/12141d1236124021-gp09-carbon-fiber-swing-arm-_tin7319b.jpg

They've struggled to build the right amount of flex into them.


Yeah, it's due to the weave and the properties of carbon fibre. I don't know the full details but a friend of mine is currently simulating carbon fibre crash testing and it's a pain to get right because it does not behave like a metal.

The budget is very low too. I know my university's formula student project costs significantly more than $8000.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 12:17 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't get it, if I was doing my first race bike project I wouldn't use carbon composite parts at all. Build it ''cheap'', test crucial parts and then work on how to make it all lighter. It's not like you're gonna win a race only because your swingarm weights a bit less than the others. Rolling Eyes

By the way, what's the weight difference between carbon composite swingarm and standard alloy swingarm?
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The other Paul Rudd
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Joined: 06 May 2013
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
I don't get it, if I was doing my first race bike project I wouldn't use carbon composite parts at all. Build it ''cheap'', test crucial parts and then work on how to make it all lighter. It's not like you're gonna win a race only because your swingarm weights a bit less than the others. Rolling Eyes


Or build an out there chassis design from known materials, rather than the most conventional machine you can think of built from awful materials to work with.

Two wheel drive and steering? Ian Drysdale managed to get something working with hydraulic drive to the wheels. Zero trail and caster angle?
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bmemotostuden...
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Joined: 05 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: 13:57 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
I don't get it, if I was doing my first race bike project I wouldn't use carbon composite parts at all. Build it ''cheap'', test crucial parts and then work on how to make it all lighter. It's not like you're gonna win a race only because your swingarm weights a bit less than the others. Rolling Eyes

By the way, what's the weight difference between carbon composite swingarm and standard alloy swingarm?


We are not designing it because of any performance/weight loss reasons: simply put, our competition is based on innovative, yet cost-effective solutions.
The carbon is not in fact better than any other material. However, it looks wicked sick.
To win the race in our competition, the bike needs not to be the fastest or the lightest one -> the minimal weight of the bikes must be 95kg (210lbs). It's the best documented bike both in technical and financial terms that wins.
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bmemotostuden...
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Joined: 05 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: 14:02 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
You want us to fund your attempt at building a bike and then racing it?

What experience has your team got with building bikes and racing bikes?

Carbon fibre fibre fairings an swingarm sound expensive, on a very limited budget is that really the best use of funds?

Why choose a relatively low powered engine for the bike?

Which parts will you be making yourselves or are you just assembling it?


We are a spin-off of a student team, who have created the first carbon composite monocoque race car chassis in our country.
Alas, the engine is given by rules, it will be same for all the teams. So are the front forks, brake system, wheels and the rear shock -> these come from the Yamaha R125. We have to design and manufacture the fairings, frame and swingarm.

What we are trying to do is to try and partially crowdfund the bike.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 14:09 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Could you show us the rules/regulations, please?

I think there's not much that could be done with the frame, suspension or fairings. Google some prototypes and see it yourself. Thumbs Up

EDIT: On what circuit is the event gonna be?
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wr6133
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Joined: 31 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: 14:19 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you give me a time and date to collect the blonde chick on your website from Heathrow airport I will get you started with a wildly generous donation of £1.67 (it's what's in my pocket right now). Laughing

(btw when I return her she is likely to be ruined)
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deadwolf
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Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do any of you ride bikes?

Sounds like John Britten's already cornered the market with carbon fibre innovation, what with the carbon fibre wheels and all that...

Might as well build an extremely light swingarm from conventional materials and vinyl wrap it in carbon fibre, since your main reason for sticking with it so far consists entire of it looking 'wicked sick'.

Could always try and reincarnate the M&T Nessie:

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/15321/lot/417/

Or bring the Falcorustyco to reality? Hydraulic transmission, AWD and hub steering.. what did they have to smoke to dream that up? Laughing

https://www.suzukicycles.org/Concept-Suzuki/Falcorustyco.shtml

Taylormade (and now sponsored by Brough Superior) have built a carbon-fibre monocoque Moto2 racebike. Apparently they tried to make it as narrow as possible, reasoning that since motorcycles already have such crappy aerodynamics, less bike is better than a big fat fairing.

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/taylormade-carbon2/

Just some ideas, HTH Thumbs Up
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Last edited by deadwolf on 15:25 - 06 Jan 2014; edited 1 time in total
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 15:21 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
bmemotostudent wrote:
The carbon is not in fact better than any other material. However, it looks wicked sick.
This does not bespeak 'innovative solutions' to me. No, it makes you sound like a fucking idiot, as opposed to an engineer. Where's the proof of all this materials analysis? What kind of design process have you followed thus far? Where are your concept sketches? All you've presented is a pair of generic-looking rendered images, and a 'plz giev moneyz' style plea, which would most likely explain why you've managed to raise a staggering ten dollars.

Short answer; no-one gives a toss about your childhood dreams. If you're trying to crowdsource funding for an engineering project, show said crowd that you actually know something about engineering, and refrain from stupid American descriptions like 'wicked sick' - it makes you sound as if you're functionally damaged.
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deadwolf
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PostPosted: 15:29 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
bmemotostudent wrote:

To win the race in our competition, the bike needs not to be the fastest or the lightest one -> the minimal weight of the bikes must be 95kg (210lbs). It's the best documented bike both in technical and financial terms that wins.


Would like to hear this explained as well. Sounds like the bike that wins the 'race' will be the one with the thickest manual and the biggest folder of receipts, as opposed to the usual racing criteria of being faster than everyone else (or even just finishing a grueling event)?

Or did you just mean most innovative and cheapest? Still gotta finish races though.
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Scythe
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PostPosted: 15:59 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
nowhere.elysium wrote:
bmemotostudent wrote:
The carbon is not in fact better than any other material. However, it looks wicked sick.
This does not bespeak 'innovative solutions' to me. No, it makes you sound like a fucking idiot, as opposed to an engineer. Where's the proof of all this materials analysis? What kind of design process have you followed thus far? Where are your concept sketches? All you've presented is a pair of generic-looking rendered images, and a 'plz giev moneyz' style plea, which would most likely explain why you've managed to raise a staggering ten dollars.

Short answer; no-one gives a toss about your childhood dreams. If you're trying to crowdsource funding for an engineering project, show said crowd that you actually know something about engineering, and refrain from stupid American descriptions like 'wicked sick' - it makes you sound as if you're functionally damaged.


This pretty much sums up my thought about the formula student team at my university.. Nothing but an ego boost for them, except the car never works. Rolling Eyes
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WD Forte
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Joined: 17 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 17:21 - 06 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
At first glance I though folk were being a bit harsh on you
but now I'm afraid I tend to agree.
10 Months and 8000 dollars to design and build not just a bike but to
'push the envelope, think outside the box' and all that bollocks
type bike?
Nahh !

Your presentation is poor, no plan or overall design, just a quick 3d
image that could be borrowed off the web for all we know.
and a somewhat mawkish 'childhood dream' plea
That's just embarrasing, no points for that.

All I see is fantasy, "I got a daft idea gimme some dosh"

Have any you sat down and discussed stuff like
"We've got 10 months and a severely limited budget, what can we realistically achieve in that time to show off our talent and
creativity ?"

Knowing I couldnt compete with richer teams/Unis
I'd embrace the poverty aspect and start skip diving and try and
show off my skills at truly creative thinking by building a bike from as many recycled materials as possible.
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