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tyres for winter

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c-m
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PostPosted: 15:49 - 16 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nope but get winter tyres.

I've had a winter tyre on my bike since November. It makes a massive difference in cool weather.

I've done 3,000 miles on it now, admittedly 2,000 of those were in warm temperatures riding up in Spain, which had cased about 50%wear.

He're my winter tyre review
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 16:16 - 16 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I doubt you can even get specialist tyres like that for scooters. They seem to be an off road/overlanding thing.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 16 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
You can get winter tyres for scooters, I recently fitted a pair to my sister in law's Peugeot 100c scooter.
Scooter tyres are cheap, Metzeler winter tyres cost about the same as a pair of branded summer tyres. I would do it.
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 16:40 - 16 Jan 2014    Post subject: Re: snow tyres Reply with quote
What snow tyres?

c-m - so could you offer the proof (tests etc) that winter tyres on bikes do provide more traction in those conditions?

I've not seen any tests done on bikes - the whole concept seems to be pretty new one with very little exposure.

Personally, I'd expect a 'winter tyre' with a normal tread road pattern but the extra wintery bits seen on car tyres to help better in adverse conditions.
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G
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PostPosted: 19:54 - 16 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Which winter tyres, then?
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Jefr0
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PostPosted: 20:06 - 16 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I had scooters for 3 years, rode all weathers and the best tyres for me in all conditions were Michelin Pilot Sports.

Try the German websites like Scooter Attack if it's still going.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:33 - 16 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was about to pooh-pooh the idea, but then I remembered 2 things.

#1 My HN125-8 came with tyres like this:

https://www.nemc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Lexmoto-Vixen-Blue-Tyre.jpg

#2 I passed my mod 2 on it with some confidence in this:

https://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47571000/jpg/_47571620_snow_peebles.jpg

Thinking back, I wouldn't have ridden any of my other bikes in that sort of weather except through absolute necessity.

Verdict: put on cheap shitty Manlung tyres, for ride besting in you snowish shitty.
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G
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PostPosted: 22:46 - 16 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
ukguy wrote:
look well chucky that would do well for grip

Off road, yes, on road, no.
More rubber in contact with the ground will give you more grip.
Block pattern CAN give a quicker warm up, as the rubber moves more.
However, if it does, it's also likely to lead to overheating quicker too.
In my experience, that amount of tread won't massively help with snow - likely the patterns on them will help more.
Problem is that the 'valleys' will full up with snow pretty quickly - when you get closer to an actual 'knoblly' tyre where there's more valley than mountain, then it starts to work better. Running at very low pressure will help, but probably not ideal on a scooter.

Personally, I wouldn't bother. If I was going to, I'd see if I could get a cheap set of wheels and just swap them over if it DID snow. So far we've had an exceptionally mild winter.
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bikersupermot...
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PostPosted: 22:59 - 16 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
G wrote:
ukguy wrote:
look well chucky that would do well for grip

Off road, yes, on road, no.
More rubber in contact with the ground will give you more grip.
Block pattern CAN give a quicker warm up, as the rubber moves more.
However, if it does, it's also likely to lead to overheating quicker too.
In my experience, that amount of tread won't massively help with snow - likely the patterns on them will help more.
Problem is that the 'valleys' will full up with snow pretty quickly - when you get closer to an actual 'knoblly' tyre where there's more valley than mountain, then it starts to work better. Running at very low pressure will help, but probably not ideal on a scooter.

Personally, I wouldn't bother. If I was going to, I'd see if I could get a cheap set of wheels and just swap them over if it DID snow. So far we've had an exceptionally mild winter.




G - have you lived overseas?

im taking it that if you have, its not in one of the northern european countries where snow / winter tires Are Required By Law!!!.

a time is issued by the government and you have a window to change your vehicle to winter tires. drive without them after and you face a steep fine.

they make the difference between being able to use your vehicle almost normally and not being able to use your vehicle without risking a serious collision putting your and others life at risk.

the difference is HUGE!.

in the certain parts of the uk they could be beneficial - i guess it depends where in the uk you are based.
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G
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PostPosted: 23:36 - 16 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have lived abroad, but not in those countries.
I have used cars with winter tyres in the UK.

Where country fines you for using a motorcycle without winter tyres?
As far as I know, only recently in Germany has there been anything in relation to motorcycles.
And I believe what there is would only see you getting done if you were in an accident that could be shown to be down to the tyres in wintery conditions where it affected other people. Not a police car checking you out in a queue of traffic.
Also, the wording of the legal stuff may make it invalid anyway.


Can you point me to some tests of motorcycle winter tyres vs normal?
Do you have anecdotal evidence where you have tested both back to back in similar conditions.

Oh and yes, a few years ago I was the one on one wheel in the packed snow (private car park at work, obviously) thanks to having put studs in tubeless trail tyres that I could use down to 8psi, so they worked pretty decent on both fresher snow and hard-pack. Smile
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c-m
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PostPosted: 00:28 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Re: snow tyres Reply with quote
G wrote:
What snow tyres?

c-m - so could you offer the proof (tests etc) that winter tyres on bikes do provide more traction in those conditions?

I've not seen any tests done on bikes - the whole concept seems to be pretty new one with very little exposure.


Nope never seen tests on motorcycle, but every test I've seen on cars reaches the same conclusion. That winter tyres are superior in cold temperatures. We're talking single digit temps here.

ADAC have conducted a few tests.

The K60 I've running is just a softer compound and has added silica it's not a snow tyre, though it is marked M+S to pass the German regulations. It works well enough for me in cold or wet conditions to justify the £65 or whatever it was.

Now Heidenau do make proper winter snow tyres for scooters (snowtex range), with the little grooves you find on winter car tyres that aid grip in the snow. Think they are around £90 a pair.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 00:33 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sava MC32 tyres have a very good reputation.
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G
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Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 00:41 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Re: snow tyres Reply with quote
c-m wrote:

Nope never seen tests on motorcycle, but every test I've seen on cars reaches the same conclusion. That winter tyres are superior in cold temperatures. We're talking single digit temps here.

Car and motorcycle tyres have to work in very different ways.

So I would take *** with your assertation that
Quote:
there is no denying that they are proven to provide more traction in damp, cold, slippery conditions than their summer counterparts.

It was seem there is at least serious question that they are 'proven' Wink.

I'm not saying they don't work better, I'd just like to see proof they DO.

Incidentally, one of my favourite tyres is still the 010 - that was a 'summer' tyre, but claimed a silica-rich compound.
It was good enough for knee-down in the damp on not very warm tyres on a stock J2.

I believe other tyres, like the TKC 80 can also be got with the M+S rating. I'm not sure if the tyre is any different, or they just stick that marking on after having paid off the appropriate german department to test it.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 01:46 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think winter tyres are worth it for a scooter simply for use in the rain.

Most scooter tyres have criminally dreadful grip on wet road compared to sport touring rubber available for big bikes. Almost every time I take my SH300 out in the wet, the rear slips a little under acceleration at one point or another, even gentle roll-on around a bend or up a hill. At one point I did a standing burnout at a traffic light, entirely unintentionally, as it went green - and the rear wasn't even on a manhole cover.

Read reviews on tyre sites, and you'd think the only thing scooter riders care about is mileage. My next tyres will be Metzler Feelfree Wintecs, but it's taken 6 years for them to be released in SH300 sizes.

In proper ice / snow though, I don't think anything short of studs will make any real difference. Don't ride if it's icy, only ride in snow if your scooter is light and easy to hold up and use your feet as sleds if necessary, and you don't mind dropping it.
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 04:08 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
in 6" deep snow my little cd200 could get about quite well thank you...traction and handling on crap chin shin tires was about the same as a dry road! Think it had something to do with the fact that the rear tire followed the groove cut by the front! A LOT better than on a rainy day at least! same with my KDX 200 on MX tires....its so bad on tarmac anyhow that snow just makes it fun with less slides..so guess it depends what your used to.....a sports bike however....just NO!! wide tires sit on the surface and big HP means spinning the rear just trying to get over a speed bump@3mph! ice however means light bike needed as anything heavy is going to get £££ in damage and even then ice catches you out so low C of G with no bhp and auto clutch means it wont hurt/cost so much to fix!
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tsmith
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PostPosted: 16:26 - 19 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
try the Heidenau K66 M&S

[img]https://www.bike-equipment.net/03_biketeile/grafik/reifen/heidenau_k66.jpg[/img]
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:25 - 19 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
tsmith wrote:
try the Heidenau K66 M&S

Is that a recommendation from experience?
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c-m
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 19 Jan 2014    Post subject: Re: snow tyres Reply with quote
G wrote:
c-m wrote:

Nope never seen tests on motorcycle, but every test I've seen on cars reaches the same conclusion. That winter tyres are superior in cold temperatures. We're talking single digit temps here.

Car and motorcycle tyres have to work in very different ways.

So I would take *** with your assertation that
Quote:
there is no denying that they are proven to provide more traction in damp, cold, slippery conditions than their summer counterparts.


They are quite similar. Snow type tyres in both motorcycles and cars have tiny little cuts in the threat block. It's proven that these offer more grip in snow.

It's also proven that adding silica to tyres helps improve grip and longevity in tyres in cold, and wet conditions. It allows a softer compound of rubber of be used too.

There's not point even discussing that.

The only thing that needs discussed is whether they offer value for money and time.
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 23:19 - 19 Jan 2014    Post subject: Re: snow tyres Reply with quote
c-m wrote:
It's proven that these offer more grip in snow.

Please show me the 'proof' that they offer more grip in bikes; otherwise I'd suggest what you're claiming isn't true.

It's like the many people that use that a certain amount of aspartame kills rats. Of course, we are not rats and so the amount for us is massively higher to be irrelevant in the case of soft drinks, say.

I'm not saying it is or is not the case, I'm saying the case is not proven.
I'd expect and hope they do offer more grip. But I'd like to see some proof, please.

And the same with silica, actually?
Do you have proof? Do you know if proof exists?
Anecdotally I'd certainly agree with you - that was my experience from my knowledge. That's pushing the claims for 'proven', however.


So yes, if you are making unfounded claims of proof, there IS a point in discussing it.
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