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Penalty Charge (Suspended bay)

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Toccs
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 31 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: 19:19 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Penalty Charge (Suspended bay) Reply with quote
Hello all need a little advice...

I parked in the usual bike bay (the same bay I do every day it has an advance warning about being suspended at any time) only I come out of work today 5:00pm only to find parking ticket wrapped nicely around my bike and the 15 other bikes also in the bay. I look up and see they suspended the bay today 17/01/2014, this was not here this morning.

EDIT: This is in the City of London, Tallis Street.

Question: Do I have any way to escape this?

Seems a bit unfair they can just suspend it and fine everyone.
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UnspeedySam
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PostPosted: 19:34 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes you can absolutely contest it. That is just absurd! https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/parking-ticket-appeals

Should leave notes on other peoples bikes that got tickets and do it as a group. Strength in numbers!
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yen_powell
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PostPosted: 19:48 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Streetview link to the bay in question?
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Toccs
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 31 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: 19:53 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
yen_powell wrote:
Streetview link to the bay in question?


https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Tallis+Street&ll=51.511844,-0.107401&spn=0.003075,0.008256&hnear=Tallis+St&gl=uk&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=51.511844,-0.107226&panoid=9lQvbBYWgICpPKw3xiLVdA&cbp=12,34.91,,0,28.18
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yen_powell
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
If it's this one.
https://goo.gl/maps/yJQqQ
then in the past I have fought and won tickets on the basis that even though the bay was suspended, it wasn't a compliant bay in the first place.

In that particular case the bay should only have single broken lines at each end and there is not supposed to be a gap between the words motor and cycles. It does not comply with the requirements of Diagram 1028.4 in The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

In addition the DOT is slowly giving permission for each parking authorities suspension signs. Until this is in place the suspension sign is illegal too. For instance one London Borough has been using a suspension board for the last 5 years that has only been legal since April last year. Worth checking to see if their sign has been authorised.
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Last edited by yen_powell on 19:59 - 17 Jan 2014; edited 1 time in total
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Toccs
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 31 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
UnspeedySam wrote:
Yes you can absolutely contest it. That is just absurd! https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/parking-ticket-appeals

Should leave notes on other peoples bikes that got tickets and do it as a group. Strength in numbers!


That would have been a good idea, ill see if i can chat to any of the guys who got done on Monday.
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Toccs
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 31 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: 20:02 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
yen_powell wrote:
If it's this one.
https://goo.gl/maps/yJQqQ
then in the past I have fought and won tickets on the basis that even though the bay was suspended, it wasn't a compliant bay in the first place.

In that particular case the bay should only have single broken lines at each end and there is not supposed to be a gap between the words motor and cycles. It does not comply with the requirements of Diagram 1028.4 in The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

In addition the DOT is slowly giving permission for each parking authorities suspension signs. Until this is in place the suspension sign is illegal too. For instance one London Borough has been using a suspension board for the last 5 years that has only been legal since April last year. Worth checking to see if their sign has been authorised.


Wow thank you i never knew that, its amazing what some of you know on BCF.

Would a letter like this work then?

Quote:
The roadmarkings delineating the bay do not conform with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2002. The double white line at the end of the bay is not a permitted variant of diagram 1028.4. These should only be used where single bays are marked out, as in diagram 1032. Attached is a photo of the bay as evidence of this point. Hence I trust the PCN will be cancelled.
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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 20:04 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Re: Penalty Charge (Suspended bay) Reply with quote
Toccs wrote:
the same bay I do every day it has an advance warning about being suspended at any time

Are you saying that there's a notice on the bay saying that it may be suspended at any time, without further (specific) notice? Thinking

If not, then try re-typing exactly what you mean.

I assume that you took a picture of both the sign and the ticket. Can we see it?
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Toccs
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 31 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Re: Penalty Charge (Suspended bay) Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Toccs wrote:
the same bay I do every day it has an advance warning about being suspended at any time

Are you saying that there's a notice on the bay saying that it may be suspended at any time, without specific notice? Thinking

If not, then try re-typing exactly what you mean.

I assume that you took a picture of both the sign and the ticket. Can we see it?


I've got a picture of the ticket but not the sign. It said this though.

"ADVANCED WARNING The Bay may be suspended at any time. No parking permitted at any time when the bays are suspended"

Picture of the ticket...

https://postimg.org/image/qpe4d3gpp/
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Raffles
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PostPosted: 21:35 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Re: Penalty Charge (Suspended bay) Reply with quote
Toccs wrote:
"ADVANCED WARNING The Bay may be suspended at any time. No parking permitted at any time when the bays are suspended"

So, you were all allowed to park as usual. They then suspended the bay and you were all ticketed? Shirley that can't be legit, can it?
Personally, I'd not mention anything about the lines/signage at this stage. You can always pull those things out of the hat later, if necessary, or better still use them next time that you get nabbed.
If you make them aware of their errors at this time then they may remedy them and remove any defence that you may need to use in the future Wink
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:07 - 17 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Appeal, first to the council, then to those kangaroo kourt klowns at PATAS.
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Toccs
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 31 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: 00:59 - 18 Jan 2014    Post subject: Re: Penalty Charge (Suspended bay) Reply with quote
Raffles wrote:
Toccs wrote:
"ADVANCED WARNING The Bay may be suspended at any time. No parking permitted at any time when the bays are suspended"

So, you were all allowed to park as usual. They then suspended the bay and you were all ticketed? Shirley that can't be legit, can it?
Personally, I'd not mention anything about the lines/signage at this stage. You can always pull those things out of the hat later, if necessary, or better still use them next time that you get nabbed.
If you make them aware of their errors at this time then they may remedy them and remove any defence that you may need to use in the future Wink


Exactly that, and yeah good idea.


Rogerborg wrote:
Appeal, first to the council, then to those kangaroo kourt klowns at PATAS.


I'm not too good with letters, what would be the best thing to use in my defence at this stage? Simply that the sign was not up when i parked?
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headlamp
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PostPosted: 12:59 - 18 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Happened to me in Westminster

They have to give 48 hours notice if they suspend a bay. By saying it could be suspended at anytime would not constitute that 48 hours - the Parking Ombudsman would say it is too vague.

Appeal.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 18 Jan 2014    Post subject: Re: Penalty Charge (Suspended bay) Reply with quote
Toccs wrote:
I'm not too good with letters, what would be the best thing to use in my defence at this stage? Simply that the sign was not up when i parked?

I'd go with that, since it's the simple truth. If you're going with a technical challenge as well, you may want to get assistance with the details of it.

I would likely add that "it is as plain as a pikestaff that it would be manifestly and absurdly unjust to prohibit my actions post facto", because I am jaunty like that.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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Toccs
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 31 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: 13:40 - 20 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I went back and got some pictures...

https://i39.tinypic.com/6qcqyx.jpg
https://i40.tinypic.com/15dxxnd.jpg
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dydey90
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PostPosted: 13:56 - 20 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've got a feeling that you'll get a reply with something like "This job number shows that warning was posted on the 15th. Prove us wrong"
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Toccs
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 31 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 20 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
dydey90 wrote:
I've got a feeling that you'll get a reply with something like "This job number shows that warning was posted on the 15th. Prove us wrong"


Agh maybe but I assure you there was no text when I parked. Maybe i should ask for photo evidence?
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MattJ
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PostPosted: 14:34 - 20 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
dydey90 wrote:
I've got a feeling that you'll get a reply with something like "This job number shows that warning was posted on the 15th. Prove us wrong"


Innocent until proven guilty, surely. The burden should be on them to prove OP was in the wrong.
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CyrilSwan
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PostPosted: 14:45 - 20 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Expect them to reject your appeal anyway. They try to scare you into paying because of their 50% discount. They know that 99% of people pay up at this stage because they don't want to risk paying the higher rate.

In my experience, they continure to offer the 50% discount even after a second rejection (gesture of goodwill they say), only for them to eventually fold a few weeks before the PATAs hearing (because of course they know that they don't have a case).
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:21 - 20 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Civil, so balance of probabilities.

Did you get a picture of a bay rammed full of ticketed bikes?

If so, is it probable that all those people ignored a clearly dated suspension sign?

Ask the council for a work order number for the placing of that sign.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 15:31 - 20 Jan 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Ask the council for a work order number for the placing of that sign.

FOI should come into play here quite nicely....
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