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| YbrGoon |
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YbrGoon
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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 Posted: 09:16 - 19 Mar 2014  Post subject: |
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Block shifting is fine if you know you're going to come to a stop.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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carbon90
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TheArchitect
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Andy_Pagin
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 13:55 - 19 Mar 2014  Post subject: |
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| Andy_Pagin wrote: | | LondonCommuter wrote: | when I'm coming to a gradual stop I like to use engine braking with a little rear brake so I clutch through each gear. |
My preferred technique, not only do you get the engine braking but by keeping in a relatively high revving gear you've got acceleration sitting ready and waiting should you need it. |
+1
Also, if you are in a situation, you are even likely to need to stop, what are you doing in forth to start with?
Third gear is the mother of all work, its the one that has covers widest speed range with most engine response, covering, on a 125 speeds from about 15mph to about 45 ish.
4th? Shouldn't really be using it until you are doung 40ish and in a situation you have confidence wont require much change of speed, ie its your 'top' gear for 'driving', with 5th above it an 'over-drive', for 'cruising' and holding a higher road speed with less revs or to eek out that last nth of top speed, on an open road.
In town, where you are faced with a hazard a yard, and may have to stop swerve, or get the heck out of the way of something that changes suddenly in the situation... and where speeds should be well within that third gear Mother of all Work speed range.... thats the gear you should be in, for the response it offers.
Very common newby problem, and especially so with the less revvy four-stroke commuters like the YBR and even more so when the rider is used to driving a car, worse still if that is a diesel car... they 'short shift' and change up far too early, far too often and try riding in far too high a gear, because reving that little engine sounds strained, and doesn't 'feel' nice.
However, that little engine has liuttle power and what little power it has is at the upper end of its higher rev range, you HAVE to thrash it to get at it, and it IS designed and engineered to take it. And in fact, reving that little engine is likely to be better for it in terms of the strain you put on it than making it labour.
Meanwhile, NOT making work for yourself unnecesserily up-shifting, means you are also not making work for yourself unnecesserily down shifting, or creating confusion, potentially getting into a tangle having to 'multi-shift'*
*for note bikes have a sequential gear-box, the gear-lever ratchets each ratio into mesh in sequence, you cannot 'Block-Shift' a sequential gear-box, as the term means to go directly from one ratio to another missing engaging intermediate ones... which is possible in a 'gate' gear-box common in cars.
Now, the 'sequential' constant-mesh gear-box of the typical motorcycle; you have two shafts. On the end of the 'input shaft' is the clutch, driven by the engine's crank-shaft. a row of cogs on that shaft mesh with another row of cogs on the out-put shaft, on the end of which is the drive sprocket that tugs the chain driving the back wheel. When you shift the gear-change lever with your toe, that works a ratchet, that moves a drum round one 'notch' in either direction. That shift drum has slots in it, and each movement slides forks, that move 'dogs' or pinned collars that sit on the gear-shafts between meshing gear-pairs, putting drive from the shaft onto the gear, when the lugs or pins on the dog poke through holes in the cog.
When you pull in the clutch, you remove the engine load from the gear-box, which means that the force that the dogs are transmitting is reduced, sufficiently that the dogs will slide out of engagement easily. However, the lugs on the next dog to be moved into engagement wont always line up with where the holes are in the gear. But NORMALLY the back wheel is still turning, so, as you press the gear lever and start forcing the dog against the gear... the gear will turn and at some point the pressure will pop the lugs through a hole and complete the change.
If you have stopped...... not going to do that is it?
Quite possible, that you will bang the gear lever, and all you will do is push the lugs against the metal of the gear, and it wont engage.
This puts strain on the engagement forks and the selector drum, as well as the gear and the engagement dog, and something has to give. Often the gear-box will simply not engage that gear, and it will miss that ratrio and it will take another prod and possibly a little rock of the bike to move the back wheel and turn a few degrees of shaft to get stuff to line up, to get it to go in.
Meanwhile, the strain of trying to force metal into metal, instead of metal into hole... makes stuff bend, and the selector forks tend to be made of bronze alloy, which is very unforgiving to being bent, its not a springy material, very nice for rubbing, not so good for spinging; and if flexed often enough, they tend to snap.
So, short answer, this 'multi-shifting' is NOT wonderful for your gearbox life.
'Block Shifting' in cars, is tolerable because they usually have a totally different type of gearbox, in which the cogs themselves ARE slid into engagement between the shafts, and they have a mechanism called 'syncro-mesh' on them to help line the cogs up so that the teeth slot into the grooves on the paired cog its going into, regardless of whether the shafts are turning, AND they have a 'gate' so that you CAN go directly from any one gear to any other gear without engaging any intermediete ratio along the way.
On a brand new bike... probably not going to do so much harm that you ever experience a failure from it, but the gearbox isn't designed to be used that way, and the reason you are even trying to do it, is suggesting you are not using the gearbox effectively, or riding as safely and efficiently as you could.... its a bad habbit... so get into good habbits learn to do stuff RIGHT, right from the start.
DONT short shift. USE THE REVS, dont be in forth in the first place, if you are in a situation even remotely likely you may need to stop.
When you KNOW you are going to have to stop... use the box properly, shift down, in stages, like when you accelerated up through the box, matching road speed to gear, so you get the most effective engine braking, and maintain best engine response...
Then WHEN you come to a full-stop... you will be in second gear, and only have to half notch it into neutral if you are going to be there a long time... or first, ready for a swift launch when you need to move again.
Its NOT good practice, on a motorbike. Dont do it.
Save your clutch, by not making so many unnecessary changes, or holding the lever in with the plates slipping, stabbing wildly at the lever at rest, for ages, get it in neutral, so the plates aren't rubbing one another, and making fewer, positive necessary gear changes where they are really needed.
Save your brake pads, tyres and suspension; reading the road, doing everything all in good time, without rushing, slowing progressively, not banging on the brakes making forks dive and tyres squeel.
Dont make work for yourself, over riding the bike, making changes you dont need to, just because it feels like the motor is screaming, or because you dont have anything else to do, and you have to find something to fill 'void' in your activity list! ENJOY not having to do so much, use attention to deal with dicks trying to kill you! Or look at the scenary; wonder what to have for tea; or other ideas that may fit.
BE SMOOTH, and the bike will love you for it, and DONT work so hard. Riding ISN'T that hard, you have an engine so you dont need to do so much work, let IT to the work for you.
DONT short shift, dont be in forth when you need to stop in the first place.
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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P.addy
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Teflon-Mike
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YbrGoon
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Rogerborg
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 19:31 - 19 Mar 2014 Post subject: |
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| YbrGoon wrote: | The scary thing was downshifting by far. Im sure my bike tyre locked once. |
Its a little light weight bike; a car, with a weight measured on tons, not pounds, has gravity doing a pretty effective job keeping tyres on tarmac, and if you 'bang-down' the box changing down to early, then that grip and the cars mass will simply drive the engine... in racing, where engines are tuned to within fine limits for maximum power and reved to within an inch of thier lives, they have always tended to go bang from a 'muffed change' the vehicles momentum driving the crank to revs vastly beyond limits, from a high road speed and low gear, thats made stuff snap, rather than the small amount an engine might rev into the red under load with the throttle wide open.
Anyway, unlikely the wheel locked, as in stopped turning; but likely that banging down too early, or not getting engine revs up before you had let the clutch out to match engine and road speed, you got a little shimmy, the wheel not driven as fast as road is going under it.
Changing down... is like changing up.... backwards.
Going up the box, you have accelerated the engine, to however many revs near top of rev range, increasing road speed as a result. to go faster you need a higher gear, so you pull in the clutch and let go of the throttle; revs go back to bottom of range, you shift gear, release clutch, and start increasing engine revs again.
Going DOWN, you have the throtte open, and revs up somewhere in the middle or upper reach of the rev range, pull in clutch, make shift... and what do YOU do? Same as for an upshift.. let go the throttle... revs go down, but... if you have gone into a lower gear, you need them to go UP... if you dont give a small tweek on the throttle as you shift to get the revs up when you let the clutch out, the road will... and if theres not enough grip and it has to do a lot of acclerating, something will 'give'.
Which will lead to a discussion on 'blipping'; reving the engine dramatically between gear changes to get them revs up to minimise any 'lurch', but doesn't have to be that extravigant, JUST a little tweek will do to get revs going up as you let the clutch back out, rather than just leaving the throttle against the closed stop.
And again; not making so many changes UP the box, in the first place, less chances for you to have a learner-learch going back down again.
Also, note in prev comment, I said you come to rest in second; you dont make that last shift into first. And I suspect that your 'lock' was most likely almost as you came to rest, making a shift into first, with least momentum driving you along, and first gear giving greatest advantage to the engine, and with the least stability from being nearly stationary, so it felt more dramatic.
First gear, has a LOT of reduction on a low powered motorbike; bike might be loaded up with two 20 stone rugger players and a keg of beer, trying to do a hill start; needs a lot of mechanical advantage to get that load shifting.
With a solo rider on board, launching on the level, you ought to be able to pull away in second... maybe not comfortably on little low powered 125, but should be easily possible with a little throttle to get the revs up and get at the power, and a little clutch slip to stop it bogging.
Not ideal, but some situations you are likely to get stuck in, can warrant it.
So treat first as a launch gear only. Use it to get the bike moving, after that, into second, and round town, second and third should be all you need to switch between unless you have to stop, when half click down for launch gear to take off again.
Second and third. Keep it simple; dont work to hard, its all you need most of the time, and you'll only ever need to make ons down-shift in situations you describe.
Just dont do it too early, remember, its like changing up, backwards so roll off the throttle....
'First brake is your third brake' was the mantra.. is closing throttle is as much a brake as front brake or back, you DONT have to bang down a gear to get engine braking, JUST close the throttle, and not necesserily all the way.
....let the revs drop as you slow, wither on the throttle or aided by positive braking if needed, , make your shift when you are down in the lower rev range, clutch, 'blip' (if you must) or tweek the throttle, to get the revs back up whilst the clutch is in, then ease clutch out and let the engine speed find balence with road speed AS the clutch is re-engaged.
Its a clutch, its progressive, like the brakes, its not an on-off switch, remember the biting point from CBT, and get a feel for that 'zone' between fully dissengaged and fully engaged, and it will all start to come together.
And PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.. only way it comes.
Oh.. and have fun! Its supposed to be fun!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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YbrGoon
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DottyDuck
Nearly there...
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| Posted: 13:46 - 20 Mar 2014 Post subject: |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 11 years, 348 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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