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HELP - Hit and run A272 Midhurst to Petersfield 26/04/14 2pm

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willis1337
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PostPosted: 18:50 - 26 Apr 2014    Post subject: HELP - Hit and run A272 Midhurst to Petersfield 26/04/14 2pm Reply with quote
Hi

If anyone on here was travelling along the A272 today between Midhurst and Petersfield at 2pm and had a helmet cam or similar running, please contact me urgently (PM me on here).

A mate who was on a demo bike was involved in a hit and run today - driver pulling out of a junction - and failed to stop. I was on a bike behind and my first concern was for my mate, rather than the driver who I assumed would stop - he didn't. Happened at the junction between Elstead Road and A272 here:

https://goo.gl/maps/T50fr

Car was turning right out of Elstead Road to travel in direction of Midhurst, we were travelling west along A272 towards Petersfield.

Significant damage to bike and broken bones in hand for rider. Police are checking cctv in neighbouring towns as there will be damage to rear side of car inc a smashed tailight and it'll also be missing the rear hubcap. It's a red Seat Ibiza, sole white male occupant thought to be late twenties / early thirties. If you know him I would stongly suggest that he contacts police before they track him down, as they are treating this very seriously and leaving the scene of a serious accident carries significant penalties.

Anyone who provides me with camera footage that results in identification of the car / driver concerned will be financially rewarded.

Thanks to all the riders / drivers who stopped and expressed concern, especially the guy on the new Z1000 who went looking for the car.
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Pigeon
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PostPosted: 19:43 - 26 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry for your mate.

What a POS that Seat driver is!!

Know the junction and it's really open and visible, no excuse for pulling out. Certainly none for not stopping.
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willis1337
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PostPosted: 21:16 - 26 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks Pigeon Cool
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gavbriggs
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 26 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Remember your mate had his lights ON when he was travelling, that way the car driver has no excuse to not see him! It compounds the fact that he was driving without due care and leaving the scene/failing to report an accident.
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covent.gardens
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PostPosted: 21:55 - 26 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gavbriggs wrote:
Remember your mate had his lights ON when he was travelling, that way the car driver has no excuse to not see him!

If you reverse that logic, then driving without lights on (at 2pm) gives the driver an excuse for pulling out. Which is not true.

In daylight I would not expect the status of the headlights to have any effect on liability, and it is definitely irrelevant to leaving the scene.
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Khanivore
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PostPosted: 22:24 - 26 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I will post this on the sussex riders Facebook group I am a part of. We ride that route fairly regularly on the way to Loomies and other places.
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Khanivore
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PostPosted: 22:28 - 26 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I will post this on the sussex riders Facebook group I am a part of. We ride that route fairly regularly on the way to Loomies and other places.
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willis1337
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PostPosted: 22:39 - 26 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks.

Re the lights, he was on a virtually new (demo bike) BMW R1200RT which has the new BMW "round the light" lights that are always on (you can't turn them off). If you look at the junction on street view you'll see it's a clear view for a very long way. The car driver was either impatient and misjudged it or looked and didn't see.
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gavbriggs
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PostPosted: 05:59 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
The reason I said that is because the insurance/car driver will try to wriggle out somehow and police/insurers don't always know lights are on permanent on bikes.

Covent.garden: there is no reverse of that comment, I simply said that it leaves them no where to wriggle to and no excuse. It will help the police make a charge stick! Just needs pointing out to police/insurance! Thumbs Up

I have drilled it into the mrs that my lights are always on, that way in the unfortunate event that plod come to tell her the news that someone didn't see me and I ended up dead she will at least be able to chase the Cnut for all they are worth!

My pet hate is people who cannot be arsed to be thorough when pulling out/turning etc etc
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Ste
Not Work Safe



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PostPosted: 06:28 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Keeping your lights on in the day isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference if someone doesn't look. If they do look and you've got your lights on then it's just going to make it harder for them to judge your speed so by having your lights on, you're giving them [their insurance company] excuses.

And if you end up dead then that's a much smaller insurance payout than if you become a potato.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 06:34 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I tend to not ride with lights on but only cos I is perverse - but now there starts to seem like an actual rationale...in that insurance companies could use that against me??? Do they actually DO that Ste?? Is that true?
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gavbriggs
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PostPosted: 06:40 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Keeping your lights on in the day isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference if someone doesn't look. If they do look and you've got your lights on then it's just going to make it harder for them to judge your speed.


I will take my chances being visible! I know they won't see if they don't look but lights on has surely got to be better!

My HID lights get me noticed sooner as a general rule! Got to be safer if your seen!

If they do say I saw him but couldn't judge his speed, so I pulled out and hit him anyway then that would definitely be their fault resulting in full payout! It probably says something in the Highway Code about not being a dickhead as well. So another plus for lights on
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Ste
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PostPosted: 07:20 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
If they do say I saw him but couldn't judge his speed, so I pulled out and hit him anyway then that would definitely be their fault resulting in full payout! It probably says something in the Highway Code about not being a dickhead as well. So another plus for lights on

You have your lights on and every other road user will misjudge your speed, that's why they'll pull out despite having seen you. If your lights aren't on then people won't be misjudging your speed because of your lights being on.

Full payout or not, the best plan is not to be in a crash in the first place. Being legally in the right (or thinking that you are) won't help you get home from hospital any sooner.

How do you know that your HID lights get your noticed sooner?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 07:26 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, since we're good and de-railed.

Highway Code rules for motorcyclists

86
Daylight riding. Make yourself as visible as possible from the side as well as the front and rear. You could wear a light or brightly coloured helmet and fluorescent clothing or strips. Dipped headlights, even in good daylight, may also make you more conspicuous. However, be aware that other vehicle drivers may still not have seen you, or judged your distance or speed correctly, especially at junctions.

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/static/hc/hc_rule_86_help_yourself_to_be_seen.jpg

In the event of a contested claim, better to be able to point at the literal rules of the road, even the advisory ones, and say "Did do."
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Ste
Not Work Safe



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PostPosted: 07:35 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
T.C wrote:
There are many cases where an accident has occured because of lights being displayed during the daytime.

Many riders display lights for no other reason than because a mate has told them to put lights on or because they were told on their CBT to display lights, and it doesn't help that many of the manufacturers are now hard wiring their lights so that they are on all the time.

I am not saying that you musn't display lights, what I would say is consider whether it is beneficial.

In many cases, drivers will think you are flashing them out of a junction, especially if you hit a bump as you approach, many drivers cannot gauge speed and distance of bikes approaching with their lights turned on, but most commonly drivers find that the outline of the bike is obscured by the aura of the headlight and so the bike simply disappears from view, hence the reason a lot of the Sorry mate didn't see you type accidents occur, they did see you (or at least they saw the headlight) but they couldn't see the bike.

Bright colours are far more effective than a headlight in good weather conditions, headlights really are only beneficial when visibility is reduced or it is dark.

All I would say is do not take displaying headlights for granted, you are often better off just displaying a sidelight which is enough to draw your presence to the attention of other road users, but it won't blind or cause confusion, and if the accident occurs you cannot then be held as having made a contribution to the cause.

It will not be long before one of the manufacturers will be subject to litigation as a result of an accident occuring due to their hard wired headlights, and in fact I am looking at such a possible case now.

As far as the instructor you mention is concerned, there are a lot of flaws in some of his ideas which have now been superceded by modern teaching practices and ideas at advanced level, and from the end of next year all advanced instructors will have to be formally qualified similar to what they are now for DAS and CBT. Guess who has to examine them? Wink

I am currently failing about 70% of potential or existing advanced instructors going through the exam/course and Star Rider went out of business because some of the stuff they were teaching such as "its not how fast you ride but how you ride fast" that got them into so much bother and their credibility ended up being shot to shreds.


T.C wrote:
You had better hope then that you are not involved in an accident which I am required to investigate as I may hold the displaying of headlights as a contributing factor to causation depending onthe circumstances. (unless of course they are constantly on due to the new ideas the jap factories have of displaying lights all the time in which case one of the major factories may well get sued.)

There are numerous cases of accidents being caused as a result of headlights being displayed, not least of which is the fact that many car drivers have difficulty perceiving speed and distance of bikes approaching with headlights displayed.

There are also cases where someone has thought they are being flashed out (which I know they shouldn't act on) but what has really happened is that the bike has hit an undulation in the road and it appears they have been flashed.

Sidelights in good conditions are a much better option as they are bright enoughto draw your attention to other road users, but not bright enough to confuse, and if youin addition wear something like a brightly coloured helmet, you will be even more visible.

I probably get about 100 cases a year where the use of a headlight in daylight condiotions has directly attributed to the cause of the accident, and most people display headlights for no other reason than the fact that they have a mate down the pub who told them that they must display it or because their CBT instructor said they must.

It is all about using the equipment available in appropriate situations, and bright daylight conditions is not always one of them.

The Highway code advises the displaying of headlights, and in fact they are wrong on a number of issues, for example the wearing of a white helmet. It has been proven by scientists that in quite a few situations, the helmet blends in with the background and cannot be seen at all, and yet they still insist on wearing a white helmet. It is not law it is advice.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



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PostPosted: 07:52 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
T.C wrote:
You had better hope then that you are not involved in an accident which I am required to investigate

Oh, I do.

T.C wrote:
as I may hold the displaying of headlights as a contributing factor to causation depending onthe circumstances.

I see he thinks he's a judge.

T.C wrote:
I probably get about 100 cases a year where the use of a headlight in daylight condiotions has directly attributed to the cause of the accident

This is the chap who only gets involved in the most serious cases, right?

So out of the cases that come to his law firm, and the ones that get handed to him, he gets one every 2 working days that can unambiguously be "directly attributed[sic]" to use of a headlight in daylight conditions?

Well, I'm glad he's the only Traffic Copper, ever, who's not been a hyperbolic, never-wrong blowhard. Whistle


Now... all that said, and despite the Highway Code reference above, I personally do not ride with the headlight on on my Enfield.

For one thing, it's had aftermarket high wattage indicators fitted to its anaemic electrical system that cause the headlight to dim at lowish revs, which I agree is likely to be taken as an "on you go" flash.
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-Matt-
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PostPosted: 07:58 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Believe I read something last year about the use of full-beam/HIDs in daylight being specifically blamed for partly causing some accidents as it lead to drivers looking in their mirror at certain times of the day and thinking the excessively bright light was the just the sun blinding them from a clear view, obscuring any vision of the bike behind the light.

Still poor ob's on the car drivers behalf as they're moving lanes blindly I expect in either case - but seems a plausible explanation for at least some accidents.
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j.silvs
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PostPosted: 08:00 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gavbriggs wrote:
Remember your mate had his lights ON when he was travelling, that way the car driver has no excuse to not see him! It compounds the fact that he was driving without due care and leaving the scene/failing to report an accident.


Massive yes!!

When I had my major off the driver turned off my lights when he hit me. (seen by some witness's and had a bike which could do that)

It took 3 years in the courts just to award liability. Bloody joke

Edit: forgot to mention that my off was at night so the light issue was a lot more significant
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iooi
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PostPosted: 08:11 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gavbriggs wrote:
The reason I said that is because the insurance/car driver will try to wriggle out somehow and police/insurers don't always know lights are on permanent on bikes.


What a load of rubbish..

It is not a legal regulation. As such they can not use it as a excuse.

In fact now riding WITHOUT lights in daytime is better given the number of cars that are now running with lights on due to the stupid EU regulation....

You have to aim to be different to be seen.

But now matter how you dress it up if they don't look you can be a big red fire engine on blues and 2's and they still get pulled out on...
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el_oso
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PostPosted: 08:28 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gavbriggs wrote:

You have to aim to be different to be seen.

But now matter how you dress it up if they don't look you can be a big red fire engine on blues and 2's and they still get pulled out on...


This is absolutely true. See the obligatory paint diagram below for a visual representation.

Dipstick as the black arrow failed to notice a police car going straight on from the other direction with full sirens and full lights. Police car had to take evasive action to swerve around the utter knob who failed to see the police car coming the other direction. I am the blue blob watching this happen.

https://cdn.bikechatforums.com/files/capture_754.png
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Easter Bunny
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PostPosted: 08:29 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I ride with dipped on both bikes (one out of choice the other on permanent).

This debate has made me think a little as it is occasionally difficult to accurately judge how fast a bike is coming up behind on the motorway when they have bright lights
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Wonko The Sane
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PostPosted: 08:35 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
iooi wrote:


But now matter how you dress it up if they don't look you can be a big red fire engine on blues and 2's and they still get pulled out on...


I saw an ambulance, with blues and twos on and full sirens get pulled out on the other night.

Some people either don't look, or look and don't care and fully deserve to be rammed by something like the huge truck from 'death race'
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Ste
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PostPosted: 08:52 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
j.silvs wrote:
When I had my major off the driver turned off my lights when he hit me. (seen by some witness's and had a bike which could do that)

It took 3 years in the courts just to award liability. Bloody joke

Edit: forgot to mention that my off was at night so the light issue was a lot more significant

Was it three years disputing whether the lights were on? Confused
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willis1337
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PostPosted: 11:23 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
No worries gavbriggs Cool

If the nobber didn't see this then he shouldn't be driving:

https://touron2wheels.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/201310_p90137628-zoom-orig.jpg
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willis1337
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PostPosted: 11:26 - 27 Apr 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
There's also the small (or should that be large) matter of the xs payable on the demo bike insurance Shocked its alot.
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