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maxray
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 Posted: 23:37 - 03 May 2014  Post subject: they should have explained counter steering on cbt or das co |
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I watched a youtube clip the other day whoch explained counter steering really simply. Tried it going home that evening... what a revelation! I know we do it sub consciously but when you think about it and do it it makes your riding so smooth and simple.
I wish they had sat me down and explained it on our das course!  |
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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Posted: 09:34 - 04 May 2014  Post subject: |
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Explaining counter steering would probably do more harm than good for most beginners. Look where you want to go is far more simple advice for new riders.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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| Posted: 10:56 - 04 May 2014 Post subject: |
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| pinkyfloyd wrote: | The easiest way to understand counter steering is:
Get a little bit of speed up on a long straight road. Gently push one of the bars away from you a tiny bit. Not what way the bike leans and swerves. That is counter steering explained. You can read or watch as much info on it as you can, until you grasp that basic you will never fully understand it. It is one of those things you must experience and it is, for many, a "lightbulb" moment.
Doing it around corners, if not automatic, takes practice and confidence because it seems anti logical. Turn the bars left to turn in right? No way! But give it a go. |
Doing it is by far the best way to understand it. A may that I've found to get used to doing it quickly, is to ride directly at a mark on the road, then see how close you can get before counter steering to avoid it. Needless to say only do this on a clear road with good grip etc. etc.
The easiest way for me to explain it is to imagine when you corner in a car, if you go around a right hand corner, the car pitches to the left. As you turn the wheel to the right, the car pitches to the left and loads the left hand tyres.
A motorcycle turns because the should of the tyre has a smaller diameter than the middle, but the principle is similar. If you turn the bars to the right, the bike pitches to the left. Then it starts to turn because it's onto a smaller diameter of the tyre (like a cone). The more you push, the more you pitch the bike (or lean). Now I read it back, maybe it's not so clear.  
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| Posted: 11:22 - 04 May 2014 Post subject: |
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This video shows both ways. Leaning's IMO more fun  but if you go too hot into a corner you simply lean more (assuming your not already leant over like Marc Marquez  ). Don't understand how that would work with counter steering? I'd have thought your already putting quite a lot of load through the front tyre.
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| Posted: 12:08 - 04 May 2014 Post subject: |
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You see this is where I get confused. I know if you lean you countersteer, but as in that video they're two different ways, each using more of the other (counter-steering/leaning... right?). So what's the benefit of each way? Roadcraft Nottingham mention the bike being more nervous/less throttle control when lent over (not something I've ever felt but anyway), apart from situations where you can't lean what's the benefit?
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Posted: 15:33 - 04 May 2014  Post subject: |
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| pinkyfloyd wrote: | | Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote: | Explaining counter steering would probably do more harm than good for most beginners. Look where you want to go is far more simple advice for new riders. |
This.
On a CBT you are not dealing with the kind of speeds where active counter steering will even come into play. DAS is more about making sure you can handle the big bike and getting you through your test. You'll find AIM or another advance lesson would cover counter steering in more detail. |
+2
Code Concious Counter-Steering is an 'advanced' technique. CBT is 'Basic', VERY Basic training; and normally given on a lightweight at low speeds where it is least helpful.
There's enough in CBT or even a DAS course to take in without over-loading a student or giving them extra potential confusion trying to wrap their heads round this on it... see below:-
| MC wrote: | You see this is where I get confused. I know if you lean you countersteer, but as in that video they're two different ways, each using more of the other (counter-steering/leaning... right?). So what's the benefit of each way? |
Trouble is semantics and use of 'counter-steer' to describe phenomenon during 'progression effects' as well as to describe 'Keith Code' prescription, 'concious' counter-steer.
1; Newtons Third Law of motion;
"every action has an equal and opposite reaction. a body in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by a changing force"
Make sense so far? Right. Motorcycle, shoved along by force at back wheel made by motor. Once moving, it will keep moving, in a straight line, until a new force comes into play to deflect it from that course.
Forget wheels, forget gyroscopes and all that crap; THIS is 90% of what makes a motorbike stay upright... shear momentum and Newtons 3rd Law.
OK... you want to turn... and bikes predominantly steer by leaning... and you have to impose a changing force to deflect the bike from straight line momentum is shoving it along... BUT remember, every action has equal and opposite reaction...
So, you want to go round right hand bend; if you try and lean your body to the right, you have to push to your left, to move your body to the right.... yes? So as you shove left, to lean right, bike will try and lean left. Every action... equal and opposite.
You lean right, bike leans left. HAS to happen.
But, having leaned to the right, you have shifted the C-of-G off center, and now gravity has greater force on the right, and that will bring both you and bike over to the right, and that's the way you go.
2; Reaction 'Lag'
Back to newton, concervation of momentum... how many bugs you got splattered on your visor? Head to Head collision, because you have millions of times more mass and speed hence momentum than a bug, when they fly into your visor, they stop dead, and start going backwards, dripping fluids down the perspex..... you try doing a bug splat to a U-turning white Van ... which weighs ten times what you do... you stop dead and start going backwards oozing bodily fluids... right?
So depending on the masses being shifted, some actions result in greater movement one way than the other.
AND, stuff takes time to move... more mass, bigger force it takes to shift it... back to Newton; Force = Mass x Acceleration.
THIS gives us 'Lag' effects; you push your-body to the right to lean right and go right, you weigh half as much as bike, bike will lean left half as far, half as fast.
3; 'Progression effects'
Motorcycle is an A-stable vehicle. It's significantly unsupported, all of the forces acting upon it and effecting it's movement are not reacted by solid immoveable interfaces, but other forces, all in a state of dynamic equilibrium.
Imagine a cot mobile... wires supported by string in the middle, balanced by hanging more bits of wire on more bits of string in the end, the bottom row balanced by paper-cut-out clowns or teddy-bears or whatever... ALL in 'balance'. Blow on a clown, everything starts to sway, and as one see-saw bit of wire wobbles, it makes the one above wobble, that makes the one above wobble, and the whole thing swings and sways about, delighting infant in cot.
That's a motorbike. Everything effects everything else in the system, every force is reacted by a complex chain of other forces, and they are all interdependent.. AND obey Newtons laws of motion, where every action has equal and opposite reaction, BUT, in real time, due to 'momentum' we get lag effects, so change one force, takes time to work its way through the system.....
And there are hundreds of inter-related forces and effects in play here... trying to make motorcycle go in a straight line, is shear momentum, but its aided by 'castor' an offset in the steering 'pivot' so that the axis of steering is ahead of the tyres contact patch with the road, so that like a trailer behind a lorry, the front wheel will try and 'follow' the steering axis... this offset gives the front wheel leverage over the steering and provides an extra force trying to keep the bike going in a straight line, and 'self centring' effect to the steering.
But, when you turn the bars; you have this reaction issue, and the offset, as much as trying to twist the front wheel to a new angle, will also try and lever the back of the bike around over the front tyre contact patch.
So you have a complicated force model, with the steering effected by lean and forces trying to twist the bike about the for-aft axis, as well as the forces trying to twist the bike about the vertical axis, ALL to generate a thrust resultant that sees the vehicle as a whole transcribe a curve about an imaginary axis some distance from the bike!
It's complicated!
However...
4; Natural Counter-steering or "Adverse reaction during Progression"
At the most rudimentary level... and looking at the 'main' mechanism by which a bike steers, leaning....
You want to go turn to the right.
To make bike go right, you need bike to lean to the right.
So YOU lean to the Right.
At THIS point Natural or inherent 'countersteering' must happen from every action has equal and opposite reaction.
If you want to lean right, you have to 'push' to the left to make you body move to the right...
So that 'natural' counter-steer is that the bike will react to your shove to the left.... and the bike will initially lean to the left...
But, through momentum lag, you are lighter than bike, bike will lean less than you do, and through 'progression' of cause and effect... gravity will get a grip on you leaning to the right and start to pull you AND bike over to the right....
THAT is the natural progression of forces... and where at some point in the 'progression' something 'contrary' to what you want to achieve happens, people CAN legitimately term 'counter-steering'... qualify it... its NATURAL counter-steering or an adverse reaction during the chain reaction, due to lag effects. Better still, dont call it counter-steering AT ALL... call it 'progression effects.
5; Keith Code Counter-Steer or Conciouse Counter-Steer or "Exploiting Progression effects" or 'counter-'Natural'-counter-steer!!!
Basically, its the principle of recognising where aparently perverse 'reactions' occur, and either doing something pre-emptorily 'perverse' in order to negate or eliminate them, or exploiting them to make the bike do what you want.
Back to previouse analogy; you want to steer to the right. To do that you want to lean to the right, but to lean to the right, you have to push to the left, and that will make the bike lean left and steer left... BUT its subject to 'lag'... right?
So, if you want to lean to the right, if you START by leaning a little to the left, you will have to push right, and bike will start to lean to the right, while you lean to the left.. but you are lighter and faster than bike.... so you can exploit the fact that bike will lean a lot more slowly than you the way you DON'T want to go, by leaning yourself the way you don't want to go, getting bike going the way you DO...
BUT, its going to come back... but it will take time... so if you quickly lean they way you DO want to go, to the right.... before the bike has had time to react and come back up from leaning to the right, you are over the top of it, gravity pulling you both that way, and the bike is steering the way you want to go, with no initial wiggle the other way... 'cos you pre-empted it with a little 'wrong way wiggle' of your own.
Bikes steer by lean, they also steer by turning the bars; though most steering comes from lean.
You can work the model with bar-turning to show the same 'progression' effects happening as the bike turns; and that is the one most often concentrated on, talking about 'bar loading' or 'counter-steering' pre-empting the adverse steering reactions and using the reactions to 'servo' the steering effect and make bike lean and turn.
Which is what most of Keith Code's fortune is founded on; and which is repeated, often with quite alarming repetition distortions all over the web!
6; Conclusion
Forget the term 'counter-steering'. The terms use, mis-use and general level of understanding of what its trying to explain is so horendouse, its only EVER going to lead to confusion.
Bikes steer by lean and by bar deflection. To make a bike steer you have to change the balence of forces acting on you AND machine, and in that imposing a changing force is going to have a 'reaction'... which working its way through such a complicated dynamic, can, due to lag effects create apparently perverse changes as the forces 'progress' to end result, which is Bike goes round corner.
Naturally, you will accommodate, utilise, or exploit some of these perverse changes during your steering, and you will do it subliminally, without concious thought...
Consciously, you MAY, as Keith Code advocates, further exploit the perverse changes during progression to 'better' make the bike do what you want... go round a corner.
To wit, a little initial lean the wrong way, and or a little initial press the wrong way on the bars, can get the bike to go the way you want, straight away, and following that in the lag before it can react and go the way you have told it, lean or steer the same way.... get it to carry on steering that way, reducing the 'lag' by a pre-emptive 'counter strike'.
Its complicated and confusing, mainly because of ambiguous application of one term, 'counter-steering' and trying to apply that term to a relatively complicated force model in which so many actions can be described by it... and not differentiation between them.
Think of the perverse reactions during force progression as 'Natural' Counter-Steer' if you must; and think of initial 'perverse control input' to pre-emptively counter-act or exploit progression effects, as 'Concious' Counter-Steer to at least differentiate between the two main areas of confusion.
Better still, DON'T think of it at all; JUST ride the bludy thing! Do what works best for you!
Keith Code has a lot to answer for! He actually has some quite useful stuff in his riding manuals; but it IS worth noting that this is the foundation key of his fortune, and he is NOT a scientist, but a member of the Church of Scientology... while as a motorcycle journalist and author, he has far more success writing about riding a motorbike, then he ever did racing them.... when road-racing in the USA was about as popular a sport as Icelandic Hurling is in Iran! Even 'his' California Super-Bike School was a spin-off from Chas Mortimer (I think) ad-hoc UK 'master-classes' he used his state-side name as a journo to help launch.
While SO many people, have ignored the one bit of 'useful' advice from Keith's religion; which is to think for yourself! analyse what you do and try and do it better... and then tried offering thier interpretations of his theologically derived explanations of 'progression effects' attaching the term 'counter-steering' to anything and everything that it might describe, making it a MIRE of misinformation and confusion.
Hopefuly, above helps cut through a little of that.
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| Posted: 16:45 - 04 May 2014 Post subject: |
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| Telfon-Mike wrote: | Back to newton, concervation of momentum... how many bugs you got splattered on your visor? Head to Head collision, because you have millions of times more mass and speed hence momentum than a bug, when they fly into your visor, they stop dead, and start going backwards, dripping fluids down the perspex..... you try doing a bug splat to a U-turning white Van Wink ... which weighs ten times what you do... you stop dead and start going backwards oozing bodily fluids... right? |
Funny, funny man a) it was a blue van  & b) actually no, I carried on flying at xx mph, it was only after gravity had its way that the oozing of bodily fluids occurred
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Better still, DON'T think of it at all; JUST ride the bludy thing! Do what works best for you! |
Yeah, plan to. For me at least riding a bike's pretty natural (not saying I'm naturally talented... cos I'm not... at anything), cornering being part of that. If I start analysing stuff I'd probably crash, just wondering why people go on about it like its better than sex. Oh & Tef, your physics lectures always help
Isn't that the (BT Sport) MotoGP commentator? You know the one who says Keith every 2 seconds...
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| Posted: 16:48 - 04 May 2014 Post subject: |
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| MC wrote: |
Isn't that the (BT Sport) MotoGP commentator? You know the one who says Keith every 2 seconds... |
Yes, Julian Ryder.
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| Posted: 18:15 - 04 May 2014 Post subject: |
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| Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote: | you cannot "lean" without counter steering. |
There is no 'Cannot' in any of this.
Keith Code shows in his own video with the NoBody-Steer Bike, you CAN initiate a turn purely with body lean and or peg-loading. And its well demonstrated, you can hold a line or change line without bar-loading, which significantly is what Code is trying to sell; bar loading.
Trouble IS having used the term 'Counter-Steer' to describe bar loading to initiate a turn, he then DELIBERATELY uses the same term when showing 'progression effects' during steering NOT caused by positively loading the bar.
They are two seperate things; you cannot call them the same thing; YET that is what Keith Code and his followers do, to support the suggestion 'you HAVE to counter-steer', whether you do it consciously or not.
Code's Bar-Loading technique can be useful, but, it is NOT the panacea prescription for peerless fine motorcycle control, it is significantly over sold as, or 'the only way' a motorbike will go round a bend.
'Counter-Steering' cant be both conscious bar-loading to initiate a turn, AND any contra reaction during force progression during a turn.
Where reverse bar-loading isn't used to initiate a turn? It isn't used to initiate a turn! Its NOT the only way to make a bike change direction.
Meanwhile Progression Reactions are going to happen.
They are two separate 'things'.. and Calling them the same thing wont make them the same thing.
Differentiate between the two; stop following Code's ambiguity of terminology, and there is no conflict or argument.
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(even after seeing the video's). I guess with leaning you can always lean more, with the counter-steering video's I've seen it looks like you could quite quickly get into trouble.
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