Help & FAQs    Search BCF    Members    Groups    Events Calendar
Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


How the hell did this happen? workers rights?

 Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> Politics & Current Affairs Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

fatpies
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Karma :
PostPosted: 00:09 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
This post

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=3886655#3886655



https://www.oecd.org/employment/emp/oecdindicatorsofemploymentprotection.htm

TL:DR Workers in China have more rights than British employees.

Shocked
____________________
"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

-Matt-
World Chat Champion



Joined: 28 Apr 2013
Karma :
PostPosted: 00:25 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
How many chinese companies actually abide by these rules though - and more importantly how many chinese workers are aware/able to challenge breaches of the regulations if they occur.

Particularly factoring in the size of the population, it seems a very grey area to gain accurate statistics from I would expect.

Or maybe China has suddenly become fair n' just Razz
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

daemonoid
World Chat Champion



Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Karma :
PostPosted: 06:18 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Re: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
This post

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=3886655#3886655



https://www.oecd.org/employment/emp/oecdindicatorsofemploymentprotection.htm

TL:DR Workers in China have more rights than British employees.

Shocked


I responded in the other thread but just saw it here too...

Does it really surprise you that a communist country has stronger worker protection than a capitalist democracy? By the very foundations of the political ideals you'd expect China to be better than the UK.

Take a look at the US to see really poor employee rights! The UK would be heading that way if it weren't for the EU...
____________________
current: ducati monster 750
past: hyosung gt250r, bajaj pulsar 180, hyosung gt 125 comet
@thomasgarrard | www.straitjkt.com | www.racingseven.com
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

fatpies
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:05 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
-Matt- wrote:
How many chinese companies actually abide by these rules though - and more importantly how many chinese workers are aware/able to challenge breaches of the regulations if they occur.

Particularly factoring in the size of the population, it seems a very grey area to gain accurate statistics from I would expect.

Or maybe China has suddenly become fair n' just Razz



Except how many UK companies abide by the rules? remember Scorps and her problems? or the fact that 0h contracts are used to skirt around rights for employees?
____________________
"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

lihp
World Chat Champion



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:13 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
0h contracts are used to skirt around rights for employees?


0 hour contracts give workers more flexibility and more people jobs.

I put my guys on 4 hour contracts, yet they both do 35 to 40 hours per week, nearly every week.

Low hour contract does not mean shit hours, however, they get the benefit of being able to take additional time off.

Want to go home early for Gran's birthday, when your hours will end up on 34 of a 40 hour contract, TOUGH, stay an extra 6 hours, want to do it on a low hour contract then it's fine.

Works both ways, hours can be varied to suit the business, they can take off much more time if they request it.

When managed properly, low hour contracts are very useful for employees.

Alternatively, I am contracted to 45 hours per week, and can often spend time sat around doing fuck all, or coming in early just to kill off contracted hours.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

fatpies
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:30 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
PhilDawson8270 wrote:


0 hour contracts give workers more flexibility and more people jobs.


Are you stupid?

Every time I hear someone claim they're "creating a job" when they hire someone I cringe. You're not creating the job. I create that job when I buy the good or service you offer. That's the only reason why you can even "create" that job. Because someone else is buying what you can offer due to this job existing. And that's also why it's not the employer but the consumer who needs the money if you want to create jobs.


Take the average plumber. Or hairdresser. Or caretaker. Or, hell, anyone providing a service.

That plumber will employ someone if, and only if, there is a reason for him to do that. Because if there is no reason, he's better off without that person. Why? Because he costs money. Well, of course if there are more people wanting to use his services than he can fulfill himself. Then, and only then, he will be forced to hire someone.


As you can see, "creating" jobs isn't something employers do out of altruistic motivations. It's something that only happens if they're forced to do it. Forced by the very person that wants to use that service provided.

And that in turn will happen if, and only if, that person not only needs that service but also is able to afford that service. And services is the FIRST thing people cut back on when money gets tight. When facing the choice to get some food or get the plumbing fixed because there is only money for one of them, the taps will keep dripping because I simply HAVE to eat. I don't have to have a non-dripping tap.

So if you want someone to create a job, make sure people have money to consume. Because that's how you create jobs!

Guess what?

Zero hours contracts reduce the amount of money people have to consume, as the risks are transferred from the employer onto the worker (a deliberate semantic play on words which means they have no rights rationally they will cut back in case there is no future work. Even animals like squirrels know to stash some food away.


Take for example my own, this week was awful £52, next week will be £52, does my spending stay the same? absolutely not I cut spending to absolutely nothing. Even when I have a bonza week maybe £1000 in a week. My spending remains at absolutely nothing beyond the essential. Because I don't know where the next pay cheque is coming from.
____________________
"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"

Last edited by fatpies on 08:33 - 05 May 2014; edited 1 time in total
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

fatpies
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:32 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Re: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:


I responded in the other thread but just saw it here too...

Does it really surprise you that a communist country has stronger worker protection than a capitalist democracy? By the very foundations of the political ideals you'd expect China to be better than the UK.

Take a look at the US to see really poor employee rights! The UK would be heading that way if it weren't for the EU...



Since when has China been communist? and since when has the UK been capitalist democracy?
____________________
"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

slowlydoesit
Could Be A Chat Bot



Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:32 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Re: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
TL:DR Workers in China have more rights than British employees.

Go visit China, somewhere like Shenzen. Walk round some factories. Observe how people work. Visit the gigantic dormitories in which the workers are housed. Observe how people live. I don't think one in a thousand British workers would exchange places with their Chinese counterparts.

Note this is before we get into discussing quality-of-life issues such as the environment and the rule of law, which is no more than the plaything of the authorities in China. The UK is, obviously, imperfect, but so is China. I know which state of imperfection I prefer.

TL;DR - Claims made on paper may not reflect real world experience. The map is not the territory.

PS Useful starter material for those wishing to learn how China works.
____________________
Kawasaki KMX200 with broken fixed powervalves and a stutter
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

lihp
World Chat Champion



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:44 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
PhilDawson8270 wrote:


0 hour contracts give workers more flexibility and more people jobs.


Are you stupid?

Every time I hear someone claim they're "creating a job" when they hire someone I cringe. You're not creating the job. I create that job when I buy the good or service you offer. That's the only reason why you can even "create" that job. Because someone else is buying what you can offer due to this job existing. And that's also why it's not the employer but the consumer who needs the money if you want to create jobs.


Take the average plumber. Or hairdresser. Or caretaker. Or, hell, anyone providing a service.

That plumber will employ someone if, and only if, there is a reason for him to do that. Because if there is no reason, he's better off without that person. Why? Because he costs money. Well, of course if there are more people wanting to use his services than he can fulfill himself. Then, and only then, he will be forced to hire someone.


As you can see, "creating" jobs isn't something employers do out of altruistic motivations. It's something that only happens if they're forced to do it. Forced by the very person that wants to use that service provided.

And that in turn will happen if, and only if, that person not only needs that service but also is able to afford that service. And services is the FIRST thing people cut back on when money gets tight. When facing the choice to get some food or get the plumbing fixed because there is only money for one of them, the taps will keep dripping because I simply HAVE to eat. I don't have to have a non-dripping tap.

So if you want someone to create a job, make sure people have money to consume. Because that's how you create jobs!

Guess what?

Zero hours contracts reduce the amount of money people have to consume, as the risks are transferred from the employer onto the worker (a deliberate semantic play on words which means they have no rights rationally they will cut back in case there is no future work. Even animals like squirrels know to stash some food away.


Take for example my own, this week was awful £52, next week will be £52, does my spending stay the same? absolutely not I cut spending to absolutely nothing. Even when I have a bonza week maybe £1000 in a week. My spending remains at absolutely nothing beyond the essential. Because I don't know where the next pay cheque is coming from.


You took 1 sentence from a post and removed ALL context from it.

I am not disputing that they can and do get abused, but managed well, they can offer more opportunity.

Take the service industry for example, such as restaurants etc. A business won't survive paying waiting staff on 40 hour salaried contracts regardless of business levels, if they had to do this, then there would be a few staff, that would then do a lot of overtime when the business requires.

With people on 0 hour contracts, they may do 10 to 16 hours per week, but then during busy periods, instead of full time employees doing paid overtime, this overtime is done by other staff, that are able to earn that cash, and still have a steady income when the business is quiet.

Without these low hour contracts, the business could survive, but I would say half of the staff would lose their job, and those that are lucky enough to keep them, would get even more money.

How is that scenario fair?

Low hour contracts should not be used to abuse workers as casual workers, but when used correctly, it allows companies to avoid redundancies, allow employees flexibility in their working hours, and allow businesses flexibility to meet the business needs.

They all depend entirely on how they are managed.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

lihp
World Chat Champion



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:45 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Re: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
daemonoid wrote:


I responded in the other thread but just saw it here too...

Does it really surprise you that a communist country has stronger worker protection than a capitalist democracy? By the very foundations of the political ideals you'd expect China to be better than the UK.

Take a look at the US to see really poor employee rights! The UK would be heading that way if it weren't for the EU...



Since when has China been communist? and since when has the UK been capitalist democracy?


China has always been a communist state, UK that allows private business to thrive is capitalist.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

fatpies
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:47 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Re: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
slowlydoesit wrote:


PS Useful starter material for those wishing to learn how China works.




All countries work the same way. Essentially China is a farm, the leaders are the farmers which exploit their animals for wool, milk and meat. They use the banking system to take this wool, milk and meat via stealth.

This is exactly the same way Britain operates, a competing farm.

The only difference is the control mechanisms which are utilised to maintain control. Violence is the primary control tactic of ALL societies. In China it is merely more overt, with Cheguan (internal security) giving out beatings and killings. Except UK protests are going all crack skulls and being violently put down, but we don't have to use this often because we have people like Cansa:

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=289221&highlight=

Who believe voting (an activism sponge which does nothing) will actually change something.
____________________
"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

lihp
World Chat Champion



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:50 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:

Take for example my own, this week was awful £52, next week will be £52, does my spending stay the same? absolutely not I cut spending to absolutely nothing. Even when I have a bonza week maybe £1000 in a week. My spending remains at absolutely nothing beyond the essential. Because I don't know where the next pay cheque is coming from.


Just because you have a shit employer that abuses you, it doesn't mean that every low hour contract is bad.

My new employee is on a 4 hour contract, so far has never done less than 36 hours per week, every week.

Another one of my employees is on 16 hour contract, and is working 47 hours this week, and works 38 to 40 in a normal week.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

fatpies
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:53 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Re: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
PhilDawson8270 wrote:
China has always been a communist state.


That sounded rather big bro esq, it has always been like that....


PhilDawson8270 wrote:
, UK that allows private business to thrive is capitalist.



Tell me how the UK is capitalist: when:

Nearly 50% of UK GDP is government spending.

The government subsidises corporate wages (tax credits to the tune of 28bn and rising each year)

The government bails out private companies.

The government chooses winners and losers by selectively applying laws.
____________________
"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

lihp
World Chat Champion



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:54 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Re: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
PhilDawson8270 wrote:
China has always been a communist state.


That sounded rather big bro esq, it has always been like that....


PhilDawson8270 wrote:
, UK that allows private business to thrive is capitalist.



Tell me how the UK is capitalist: when:

Nearly 50% of UK GDP is government spending.

The government subsidises corporate wages (tax credits to the tune of 28bn and rising each year)

The government bails out private companies.

The government chooses winners and losers by selectively applying laws.


All very true, traditionally though the UK is capitalist, but there is far more of China that remains Communist. As time goes on the difference between these 2 extremes is merging, in a lot of developed countries.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

fatpies
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:59 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
PhilDawson8270 wrote:
With people on 0 hour contracts, they may do 10 to 16 hours per week, but then during busy periods, instead of full time employees doing paid overtime, this overtime is done by other staff, that are able to earn that cash, and still have a steady income when the business is quiet.


Or they may well do 0 hours per week and then during busy periods be called in.


PhilDawson8270 wrote:
Low hour contracts should not be used to abuse workers as casual workers, but when used correctly, it allows companies to avoid redundancies, allow employees flexibility in their working hours, and allow businesses flexibility to meet the business needs.

They all depend entirely on how they are managed.


That is just playing with semantics.

Consider the end result instead:

Redundancy = no work.

zero hours = no work.
____________________
"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

fatpies
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Karma :
PostPosted: 09:02 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
PhilDawson8270 wrote:
Just because you have a shit employer that abuses you, it doesn't mean that every low hour contract is bad.



The thing is I apparently don't work for a nasty slave driving employer. I work for 3 of the Universities in the Manchester area, and yet if a public sector organisation is treating people like this, then what of the private sector?
____________________
"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

lihp
World Chat Champion



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Karma :
PostPosted: 09:12 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
PhilDawson8270 wrote:
Just because you have a shit employer that abuses you, it doesn't mean that every low hour contract is bad.



The thing is I apparently don't work for a nasty slave driving employer. I work for 3 of the Universities in the Manchester area, and yet if a public sector organisation is treating people like this, then what of the private sector?


I also work in the Manchester area, in the private sector, and my workers aren't treated like this.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

lihp
World Chat Champion



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Karma :
PostPosted: 09:15 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:


That is just playing with semantics.

Consider the end result instead:

Redundancy = no work.

zero hours = no work.


You missed the point.

2 workers on 35 hour contracts is 70 hours available.

Work drops and there is only 32 hours available, we must make redundancies then re-hire on new contract, or get a change of contract in place.

2 workers on 4 or 16 hour contracts when 70 is available is 35 each.

Work drops to max 32 hours, workers hours can be dropped to 16 each.

Both still have work, and pay.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

daemonoid
World Chat Champion



Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Karma :
PostPosted: 09:59 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Re: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
Since when has China been communist? and since when has the UK been capitalist democracy?


Note how it's known as the political spectrum. Capitalism and Communism are 'ideals'. China has been ruled by the Communist CPC since 1949.

The UK, like all capitalist states also practices a bit of socialism - more so than the US, but less than a lot of nations in Europe that could all be referred to as Capitalist Democracies...

Not sure quite where you're going with it, but you would expect the more socialist a state the greater the workers rights. Whether you'd have your own choice of terms for China's or the UK's government doesn't really matter - you'd have to agree that China has more socialist/communist ideals.
____________________
current: ducati monster 750
past: hyosung gt250r, bajaj pulsar 180, hyosung gt 125 comet
@thomasgarrard | www.straitjkt.com | www.racingseven.com
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

slowlydoesit
Could Be A Chat Bot



Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Karma :
PostPosted: 10:03 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Re: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
"All countries work the same way" and other such assertions.

Reading your posts, I don't get any sense that your opinions are based in wide experience of the world. It sounds to me as if you read a couple of basic texts on anarchism or Marxism and are regurgitating bits and pieces from those. Having said that, there are no factual statements in your comments that I can refute. Which is the usual way of things with conspiracy theories: they are impossible to "disprove".

However, I am confident that if you were to go and live in China (with open and curious eyes), you would find to your shock that in fact it doesn't work in the same way to the UK. Most developed countries have elements that appear similar at first glance; banking systems, police forces, schools, companies, a military and so on. The key issue is that roles and powers owned by those elements vary by country and so do the ways they interact.
____________________
Kawasaki KMX200 with broken fixed powervalves and a stutter
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

daemonoid
World Chat Champion



Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Karma :
PostPosted: 10:30 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Re: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:
All countries work the same way. Essentially China is a farm, the leaders are the farmers which exploit their animals for wool, milk and meat. They use the banking system to take this wool, milk and meat via stealth.

This is exactly the same way Britain operates, a competing farm.

The only difference is the control mechanisms which are utilised to maintain control. Violence is the primary control tactic of ALL societies. In China it is merely more overt, with Cheguan (internal security) giving out beatings and killings. Except UK protests are going all crack skulls and being violently put down, but we don't have to use this often because we have people like Cansa:

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=289221&highlight=

Who believe voting (an activism sponge which does nothing) will actually change something.


As much as you think is wrong with the current state of governance, where do you think we'd be without it? Do you think that without sharing effort and having leadership we'd be able to have this conversation over the internet?

All of modern life is a product of the societal structures around us. We live in an age that is better in almost every way than what has gone before (although we're having a slight dip in the past 30-50years). Whining about how "it's all wrong" is worthless when you could be exploiting the system...
____________________
current: ducati monster 750
past: hyosung gt250r, bajaj pulsar 180, hyosung gt 125 comet
@thomasgarrard | www.straitjkt.com | www.racingseven.com
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

fatpies
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Karma :
PostPosted: 10:53 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Re: How the hell did this happen? workers rights? Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
As much as you think is wrong with the current state of governance, where do you think we'd be without it? Do you think that without sharing effort and having leadership we'd be able to have this conversation over the internet?




I don't know, you could say universities/military applications resulted in trickle down effect resulting in what we see before us now.

But I dunno it irks me greatly to see policies which either by incompetence or design (which is invariably worse) have totally the opposite effect.
____________________
"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Lord Percy
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Karma :
PostPosted: 11:06 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Zero hour contracts leave huge amounts of workers greatly concerned for their welfare and their future, whereas their bosses are functioning in exactly the same way as before, if not better, because the business runs exactly the same apart from the fact that employee costs are far cheaper and far more easier to manage. Because fuck employees, they're not humans, they're just tools for making more money.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Visitor Q
$25 whore



Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 11:10 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
fatpies wrote:

Are you stupid?


No, but you may be.

More rights in China? As a foreign 'expert', yes. As a local, just no. Not even remotely.

If you're reading the laws, I'd wager they are directed at foreigners.
____________________
China traffic/travel bike vid - When I make a sweeping statement, please add the word 'statistically' in to the sentence before you bitch...
From September 2014 to January/February 2015 I will not be using any English, nor reading any. As such, I won't be on here. PM at will, but I won't be checking/posting unless in emergencies. Certainly not for the first couple of months. Please berate me savagely if I break that rule...
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

lihp
World Chat Champion



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Karma :
PostPosted: 11:25 - 05 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Zero hour contracts leave huge amounts of workers greatly concerned for their welfare and their future, whereas their bosses are functioning in exactly the same way as before, if not better, because the business runs exactly the same apart from the fact that employee costs are far cheaper and far more easier to manage. Because fuck employees, they're not humans, they're just tools for making more money.


So do you propose that bars/clubs/restaurants pay staff with an empty venue? How long do you think the business will last?

Don't like it, then work harder and earn your way out of the situation.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 12 years, 193 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> Politics & Current Affairs All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
 You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 
Debug Mode: ON - Server: biskey (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.09 Sec - Server Load: 0.27 - MySQL Queries: 13 - Page Size: 149.12 Kb