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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 13:47 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: F1 LOL! Reply with quote
WTF?
I can fart better exhaust notes than that!
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Dalemac
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
*Yawn*

MotoGP bikes sound shite too, such is Motorsport these days. Noise is not good for performance as it is wasted energy.
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Dave500
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PostPosted: 14:50 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
But you can hear the turbos Very Happy
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bEN_
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PostPosted: 15:06 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Got used to it now, don't mind it and actually quite like the downshifting sound, they are making them louder anyway
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 16:33 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I much prefer the newer sound level. You can actually hear the drivers properly.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 16:33 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe I'm gonna get raped for this, but it's not about the sound, it's about performance and the top technology within the regulations.

I mean motorsport is not music, the sound is irrelevant. Thumbs Up
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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 16:40 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sound and heat are wasted energy, they're trying to maximise the efficiency.

Internal combustion is pretty poor in terms of thermal efficiency, I think Martin Brundle said during commentary today that these engines are 40% efficient, which is very high for an ICE. Last years V8s were 30% iirc, so they're 1/3 more efficient.


The racing has been so close, particularly Bahrain and again today at Barcelona, I've been focusing on that and not noticed the quietness... It doesn't bother me.


I do love the sound of the previous generation turbos though, from the 80s. I've seen and heard Alain Prost's McLaren MP4/3 in the flesh, with the 1100bhp TAG-Porsche 1.5 litre turbo engine. And that is a phenomenal beast of a machine. On tv it sounds a lot different, but even on tv it also still sounds a lot better than the 2014 engines.

Still think the V12 engines were the best sounding though. But times change, the formula has to change, and it has to be relevant as the pinnacle of motoring.

Motoring's current direction is fuel efficiency and hybrid technology. Road cars are more and more ditching n/a in favour of smaller capacity turbos, it is only right that F1 would follow, to be at the cutting edge to make technologies better and cheaper for the consumer down the line.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 16:55 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
New sound is great.... Even better that you can hear the tyre squeal when they lock the wheel up Thumbs Up

Far better from a viewing point of view.
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Tungtvann
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PostPosted: 17:00 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
Maybe I'm gonna get raped for this, but it's not about the sound, it's about performance and the top technology within the regulations.

I mean motorsport is not music, the sound is irrelevant. Thumbs Up


Of course the sound is relevant, why would so many people comment on the change? (drivers and fans alike) People go to see Formula 1 for the complete spectacle of it, the sound included. I've never seen F1 live, but when my dad went years ago, he commented on how unbelievable the sound was. I'm guessing it was around the V12 days, he said you can't imagine what it's like just from the TV.

So you think if in 10 years time F1 was running with silent electric motors is would make no difference? I also don't believe it's really about efficiency and the environment either, let's make them all peddle cars otherwise. I always thought it was about the F1 rule makers bringing in new regulations to keep the sport competitive and to stop the cars getting too quick.
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 17:02 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
LlamaFarmer wrote:
Road cars are more and more ditching n/a in favour of smaller capacity turbos, it is only right that F1 would follow, to be at the cutting edge to make technologies better and cheaper for the consumer down the line.

F1 is supposed to develop technology that will eventually make its way down to your Ford Fiesta. For them not to be using turbos and hybrid technology was silly. It couldn't not go that way. What they can do with 1600cc is phenomenal.

I'd love to see a racing league where the only rules were safety-driven. So as long as you have tethered wheels, rigid cockpits etc anything goes. Any engine you like. Any budget you like. Any number of wheels you like. Just to see what we can do, technically.
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orac
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PostPosted: 17:13 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
LlamaFarmer wrote:
Sound and heat are wasted energy, they're trying to maximise the efficiency.

Internal combustion is pretty poor in terms of thermal efficiency, I think Martin Brundle said during commentary today that these engines are 40% efficient, which is very high for an ICE. Last years V8s were 30% iirc, so they're 1/3 more efficient.


The racing has been so close, particularly Bahrain and again today at Barcelona, I've been focusing on that and not noticed the quietness... It doesn't bother me.


I do love the sound of the previous generation turbos though, from the 80s. I've seen and heard Alain Prost's McLaren MP4/3 in the flesh, with the 1100bhp TAG-Porsche 1.5 litre turbo engine. And that is a phenomenal beast of a machine. On tv it sounds a lot different, but even on tv it also still sounds a lot better than the 2014 engines.

Still think the V12 engines were the best sounding though. But times change, the formula has to change, and it has to be relevant as the pinnacle of motoring.

Motoring's current direction is fuel efficiency and hybrid technology. Road cars are more and more ditching n/a in favour of smaller capacity turbos, it is only right that F1 would follow, to be at the cutting edge to make technologies better and cheaper for the consumer down the line.


resipricating engines waste alot of energy by the changing of direction of moving parts. the issue with rotary type engines is the lack of development. wankel is about the only type of rotary engine that has made into the semi main stream and produces lots of power to its size at the cost of oil and fuel.

the problem is, too many didnt like the few who had taken the idea to racing and got been beaten by the hairbrained german idea of no pistons. banning it retarded development has blited its current reputation.

there is a glimmer of hope in quasi turbine

F1 has long not been the cutting edge when it come to inovation of enginerring design, it why things like ground effects was banned. instead of forcing teams that failed to invoate in the first place they ban the idea that make them a look as though they haven bothered.
Granted ground affect is a bad example, but where would the wankel engine be now if as much time and money been put into it as the old fashoned piston engine.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 17:40 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Re: F1 LOL! Reply with quote
Thorn wrote:
Lets hear it then


Pervert! Wink

Apostrophe? Mr. Green
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:47 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
orac wrote:


F1 has long not been the cutting edge when it come to inovation of enginerring design, it why things like ground effects was banned.


Ground effect was banned on safety grounds. If, *for whatever reason, you lose the ground effect, you are basically in an unguided missile.


*Hitting a car, a kerb, or a bit of a broken car
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orac
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the chihuahua wrote:
orac wrote:


F1 has long not been the cutting edge when it come to inovation of enginerring design, it why things like ground effects was banned.


Ground effect was banned on safety grounds. If, *for whatever reason, you lose the ground effect, you are basically in an unguided missile.


*Hitting a car, a kerb, or a bit of a broken car

by that affect they just as well get rid of wing and engine that produce more than 1 man power so they done exceed the crash forces excerted by average joe running into a wall.

coming to think of it senna didnt have a ground affect car when he had his tragic accident that killed him. a quick scan through the usual wiki article make no mention of safetly, let a lone a ban on safetly grounds.

also from my understanding of the sport the cars still make use of bernoullis' principle (hense the rear defuser)

none the less this i devergant from that fact that engine technoloagy has barely moved since the inverntion of the respricating piston engine.

motor sport, cival transpot, hell the entire human race needs to move on and find something that is more efficient than the piston engine. we have too, and if F1 is the pinicle of what we can do as s species, we are truly doomed to a fate created entirely by greed.

could be interesting to see pure ethenol pwere machines, hmm ethenol turbines, maybe Hydrogene turbine, hack even hydrogen piston eginges would be a step forward.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 18:16 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tungtvann wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
Maybe I'm gonna get raped for this, but it's not about the sound, it's about performance and the top technology within the regulations.

I mean motorsport is not music, the sound is irrelevant. Thumbs Up


Of course the sound is relevant, why would so many people comment on the change? (drivers and fans alike) People go to see Formula 1 for the complete spectacle of it, the sound included. I've never seen F1 live, but when my dad went years ago, he commented on how unbelievable the sound was. I'm guessing it was around the V12 days, he said you can't imagine what it's like just from the TV.

So you think if in 10 years time F1 was running with silent electric motors is would make no difference? I also don't believe it's really about efficiency and the environment either, let's make them all peddle cars otherwise. I always thought it was about the F1 rule makers bringing in new regulations to keep the sport competitive and to stop the cars getting too quick.


So, driving a race car on a race track is not about racing, I've got it. Thumbs Up Rolling Eyes
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:35 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
orac wrote:



coming to think of it senna didnt have a ground affect car when he had his tragic accident that killed him. a quick scan through the usual wiki article make no mention of safetly, let a lone a ban on safetly grounds.


And that just shows just how little you know. Google the 'plank'
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 19:49 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the chihuahua wrote:
orac wrote:



coming to think of it senna didnt have a ground affect car when he had his tragic accident that killed him. a quick scan through the usual wiki article make no mention of safetly, let a lone a ban on safetly grounds.


And that just shows just how little you know. Google the 'plank'


He might commited a suicide or the steering has failed, because he went straight in a mild corner right after the finish straight at Imola.

EDIT: There you go: https://youtu.be/lMXxtLQhAWY?t=56s
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 20:04 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
The people saying it's not about the sound...

How would you feel if there were advances in electric engines to the point they got put in F1 cars in the future?

Same with Moto GP, imagine them all capable of same speeds/power but it was just silent Shocked
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orac
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PostPosted: 20:11 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the chihuahua wrote:
orac wrote:



coming to think of it senna didnt have a ground affect car when he had his tragic accident that killed him. a quick scan through the usual wiki article make no mention of safetly, let a lone a ban on safetly grounds.


And that just shows just how little you know. Google the 'plank'


Yes that an excersise, somethng to with yoga maybe - next time you suggest a search try something more along the lines of F1 plank - the results will be much more along the line of what you are are getting at

senna crash is actually still a bone of contention amongst many, some argue for badly altererd steering column, however there was a natgeo programme that argued that his car grounding out at 190mph, stopping ariflow under the car was the cause.

i cant actually find firm dates between senna death an the current rullig on the use of planks to maintian airflow inder the car.

when we talk about ground affect we genrally talk about the ones with the big fans sucking those bad boys to the tarmac
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:18 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
orac wrote:


Yes that an excersise, somethng to with yoga maybe - next time you suggest a search try something more along the lines of F1 plank - the results will be much more along the line of what you are are getting at

senna crash is actually still a bone of contention amongst many, some argue for badly altererd steering column, however there was a natgeo programme that argued that his car grounding out at 190mph, stopping ariflow under the car was the cause.

i cant actually find firm dates between senna death an the current rullig on the use of planks to maintian airflow inder the car.

when we talk about ground affect we genrally talk about the ones with the big fans sucking those bad boys to the tarmac


Having watched Senna die live on telly, I can confirm that the plank was introduced within a couple of races of Imola as the evidence at the time (low tyre pressure due to following the safety car combined with very little clearence from the track) indicated that the tyres lost traction. The minimal ground clearence was a side effect of taking advantage of ground effect.

Also, the older ones of us will know that Lotus used strips hanging from the bottom of the car to take advantage of ground effect first. It has nothing to do with fans, authough they could be used to increase the effect, it's all to do with low pressure beneath the car and high pressure above the car.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 20:29 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
R1 Jay wrote:
The people saying it's not about the sound...

How would you feel if there were advances in electric engines to the point they got put in F1 cars in the future?

Same with Moto GP, imagine them all capable of same speeds/power but it was just silent Shocked


I watch any sport for what it is, the sound is not important. I never liked F1 or Moto GP.

I like/d DTM, Rally events, BTCC, WTCC, SBK, Road Racing and so on. The only prototype events I liked were Group C, 24h LeMan and GP500. The F1 and MotoGP feels like pay to win event. If you've got money, you can be competitive. I'm not sure how about this year, but the last year the MotoGP was like a Honda commercial, every single race. Thumbs Down

Side note: I really liked GP50, I watched every race I could on youtube. I just like that it's not expensive, nor extremly dangerous and I could do it right away. That's actually why I'm planning getting into road racing, I've got 2 tracks near the place I live. I'm gonna start with ,,Classic'' category, to keep it cheap and safe and then will see. Smile
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Pigeon
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PostPosted: 21:26 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
F1 is about the noise. Howling, screaming engines.

When seeing F1 cars from 1960's onwards at Goodwood, standing 6ft away as they roar up the hill, gives me goosebumps.
I will not get goosebumps over these V6 fart wagons.

The racing is good, the lack of driver aids is good. But the V6 sounds pathetic.

V10's were great, V8's were good too.
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McJamweasel
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
orac wrote:

when we talk about ground affect we genrally talk about the ones with the big fans sucking those bad boys to the tarmac


No we don't. There was only 1 car with a fan and that only raced once. Go and do 2 minutes reading on ground effect and you'll get the gist.

These current engines are at the peak of petrol ICE design. They are using 30% less fuel than last year and going only a couple of seconds a lap slower - and that's with less grippy tyres and less downforce. It's a remarkable achievement and something that F1 should be proud of.

For those asking about when F1 goes electric - find a video of the Formula E car, it sounds pretty good.
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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 21:58 - 11 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
angryjonny wrote:
LlamaFarmer wrote:
Road cars are more and more ditching n/a in favour of smaller capacity turbos, it is only right that F1 would follow, to be at the cutting edge to make technologies better and cheaper for the consumer down the line.

F1 is supposed to develop technology that will eventually make its way down to your Ford Fiesta. For them not to be using turbos and hybrid technology was silly. It couldn't not go that way. What they can do with 1600cc is phenomenal.

I'd love to see a racing league where the only rules were safety-driven. So as long as you have tethered wheels, rigid cockpits etc anything goes. Any engine you like. Any budget you like. Any number of wheels you like. Just to see what we can do, technically.


Yeah I would like to see that, but then part of the safety-driven rules were to reduce speed, because they were getting stupidly quick (the late 80s turbos were scaled back from 1000bhp to 650bhp in the space of one year, by setting a boost limit, purely because of speed).

We saw it with Group B rallying too, epitome of technology in rallying at the time, but just too damn quick it was literally killing people.

As aerodynamics improved, cornering speed was increasing at too great a rate, hence the grooved tyres instead of slicks. Reverted to slicks but reduced the size of the wings etc.


So whilst I would find it highly interesting, being realistic, it's just not realistic. Look at the Red Bull X2010 or whatever it was called on Gran Turismo. Adrian Newey designed that based on very few technical limitations, and they worked out it was massively quick compared to F1 cars, but a tyre blowout on a corner due to the high loading and the impact speeds with a barrier could be dangerously high.

Would require massive track redesign if speeds were allowed to increase. And since the point is to go quicker than everyone else, you have to set some rules to prevent them going too far.


I'd like them to bring back refuelling though, still only allowing the 100kg per race total, but with say a 40kg tank and that throws an extra element of strategy, and forces at least a two stop race. But without having to qualify with the amount of fuel you wanna start with.


orac wrote:
LlamaFarmer wrote:
Sound and heat are wasted energy, they're trying to maximise the efficiency.

Internal combustion is pretty poor in terms of thermal efficiency, I think Martin Brundle said during commentary today that these engines are 40% efficient, which is very high for an ICE. Last years V8s were 30% iirc, so they're 1/3 more efficient.


The racing has been so close, particularly Bahrain and again today at Barcelona, I've been focusing on that and not noticed the quietness... It doesn't bother me.


I do love the sound of the previous generation turbos though, from the 80s. I've seen and heard Alain Prost's McLaren MP4/3 in the flesh, with the 1100bhp TAG-Porsche 1.5 litre turbo engine. And that is a phenomenal beast of a machine. On tv it sounds a lot different, but even on tv it also still sounds a lot better than the 2014 engines.

Still think the V12 engines were the best sounding though. But times change, the formula has to change, and it has to be relevant as the pinnacle of motoring.

Motoring's current direction is fuel efficiency and hybrid technology. Road cars are more and more ditching n/a in favour of smaller capacity turbos, it is only right that F1 would follow, to be at the cutting edge to make technologies better and cheaper for the consumer down the line.


resipricating engines waste alot of energy by the changing of direction of moving parts. the issue with rotary type engines is the lack of development. wankel is about the only type of rotary engine that has made into the semi main stream and produces lots of power to its size at the cost of oil and fuel.

the problem is, too many didnt like the few who had taken the idea to racing and got been beaten by the hairbrained german idea of no pistons. banning it retarded development has blited its current reputation.

there is a glimmer of hope in quasi turbine

F1 has long not been the cutting edge when it come to inovation of enginerring design, it why things like ground effects was banned. instead of forcing teams that failed to invoate in the first place they ban the idea that make them a look as though they haven bothered.
Granted ground affect is a bad example, but where would the wankel engine be now if as much time and money been put into it as the old fashoned piston engine.


Ground effects was banned due to cornering speed iirc. As above, the cars were just becoming dangerously quick and if and when there was a mid-corner problem then it would have been a very nasty crash.

Lets not forget this was a couple of decades ago, long before the Herman Tilke(?) tracks with 200 miles of tarmac run off. They were racing on tracks with concrete barriers sometimes just off the racing line.


Some technology was to level the playing field, like scrapping driver aids like traction control, launch control, other electronic wizardry like active suspension as well.
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