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Honda CB Twin or I4? First Bike

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caferacer
Nova Slayer



Joined: 11 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: 17:54 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Honda CB Twin or I4? First Bike Reply with quote
Good evening ladies and gents..

I took my Mod 1 for my Direct Access on Tuesday and have my Mod 2 booked and am now dreaming of my first bike.

I've converted my CB 125 into a cafe racer and I'd love to do the same with my next bike!

I'm torn between getting a smaller air cooled Twin like a 450cc or a 750cc Inline 4.

Am I right in thinking an I4 would be more of a cruiser and a Twin would be more of a push-it-to-the-limit ragged racer?

Still learning about bikes - I want something which looks old and simple but I want to be able to at least nearly keep up with my friends on their Triumph Sprint 1000s etc and enjoy chucking it into corners rather than cruising.

Can anyone offer an insight?

Thanks!
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Az
World Chat Champion



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: 18:00 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Which il4 750 and what 450 twin?

caferacer wrote:
I'm torn between getting a smaller air cooled Twin like a 450cc or a 750cc Inline 4.

Still learning about bikes - I want something which looks old and simple but I want to be able to at least nearly keep up with my friends on their Triumph Sprint 1000s etc and enjoy chucking it into corners rather than cruising.


An air cooled 450cc twin will not keep up with a Sprint 1050 and some il4 750's will be able to keep up… but it depends on which il4 750 you're interested in. A GSXR750 may not struggle to keep up with a Sprint where as a ZR-7 would, in a straight line anyway.

As for corners, i'm convinced cornering fast is down to ability rather than the bike you're actually on. Me and my brother have a friend who rides a Bandit 600* who's just as fast as my brother on his GSXR600. Unless you're doing big sweeping bends all the time where you're full throttling around them, skill and balls is what makes you quicker, not the bike, that's my opinion anyway.

*The B6 isn't completed standard, Hagon shock, upgraded fork springs and a bigger rear sprocket.. but it's still a Bandit Smile
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caferacer
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PostPosted: 18:56 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Az wrote:
Which il4 750 and what 450 twin?

An air cooled 450cc twin will not keep up with a Sprint 1050 and some il4 750's will be able to keep up… but it depends on which il4 750 you're interested in.

As for corners, i'm convinced cornering fast is down to ability rather than the bike you're actually on. Unless you're doing big sweeping bends all the time where you're full throttling around them, skill and balls is what makes you quicker, not the bike, that's my opinion anyway.


I'm looking at the old Honda CB450 or CB750 - I'm talking '80s bikes.

The best roads around my way are winding mountain roads where the corners will slow us all down and my friends aren't the type to break the speed limit too much. Not racing just fun rides.

I wont want to fall behind when heading up the hills but other than that I'm not too concerned over engine size.

I like being able to see through the frame and the oil reservoirs would get in the way of that.

I've heard Twins are more feisty and more fun as you can push them to their limits. Is this really true?
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nowhere.elysium
The Pork Lord



Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
750 over the 450 any day of the week.

Of course, I have an irrational hatred of I2 engines.
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caferacer
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PostPosted: 19:09 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
nowhere.elysium wrote:
750 over the 450 any day of the week.

Of course, I have an irrational hatred of I2 engines.


I know you said 'irrational' but may I ask why you hate them? Are they too sensitive / slow / boring / light ???
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nowhere.elysium
The Pork Lord



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PostPosted: 19:18 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
caferacer wrote:
I know you said 'irrational' but may I ask why you hate them? Are they too sensitive / slow / boring / light ???
Lumpen and tedious, truth be told. They try to pick up like an I4 does when you rev them, but they fail. At least a V2 is honest in that it's just got a flat torque curve throughout.
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caferacer
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PostPosted: 20:00 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
nowhere.elysium wrote:
Lumpen and tedious, truth be told. They try to pick up like an I4 does when you rev them, but they fail. At least a V2 is honest in that it's just got a flat torque curve throughout.


I've been learning on a V2 650 which I like - it probably has enough power for me.

I know the engine size will effect overall performance, I'm more interested in the way it affects the feel of the bike.
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nowhere.elysium
The Pork Lord



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PostPosted: 20:23 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
SV650, by any chance?

They're competent enough, but tend to run out of 'go' just as they seem to be picking up. I4 engines tend to deliver a bit more higher up the rev range, and even if the engine in question isn't delivering more power, it feels like there's a lot more going on.

I2s just feel like an I4 that's not only got Parkinson's, but has also had it's legs cut off at the knee. Unless they've got a funny timing configuration, they tend to feel like one would imagine riding a washing machine with a brick in the drum would. In my opinion, of course.

360- and 270-degree I2s are exempted from this scathing judgement, purely because they feel very, very different, but are somewhat rare.
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caferacer
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PostPosted: 20:47 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
nowhere.elysium wrote:
SV650, by any chance?

They're competent enough, but tend to run out of 'go' just as they seem to be picking up. I4 engines tend to deliver a bit more higher up the rev range, and even if the engine in question isn't delivering more power, it feels like there's a lot more going on.

I2s just feel like an I4 that's not only got Parkinson's, but has also had it's legs cut off at the knee. Unless they've got a funny timing configuration, they tend to feel like one would imagine riding a washing machine with a brick in the drum would. In my opinion, of course.

360- and 270-degree I2s are exempted from this scathing judgement, purely because they feel very, very different, but are somewhat rare.


You mean like a 'boxer' engine?

It's a Suzuki Gladius actually but good guess.

Right so by the sounds of it I want a I4 otherwise it will get boring quite quickly.

The cb750s I guess are the most common then...
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 20:58 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
caferacer wrote:
You mean like a 'boxer' engine?
No, boxer engines are flat, with the piston heads facing away from each other. an I2 engine has the two pistons alongside each other, like an ER-5/ER-6, CB500, GS500 and so on and so forth.
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caferacer
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PostPosted: 21:21 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok so this may be an even more stupid question than my original one but...

They made Honda CB 500s in both I4 and ITwins, is the the 4 still better when your looking at the same engine size?


Ok so a boxer is flat - what do you mean by 360- and 270-degree I2.
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 21:38 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
caferacer wrote:
They made Honda CB 500s in both I4 and ITwins, is the the 4 still better when your looking at the same engine size?


Ok so a boxer is flat - what do you mean by 360- and 270-degree I2.
Personally, I reckon so.

The 360/270/180 degree thing refers to the position of the crank when the opposing piston is on the compression stroke. A 270-degree twin feels similar to a 90-degree V-twin, whereas a 360-degree crank is sort of like a big single.
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randymartin
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Joined: 12 May 2014
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PostPosted: 11:50 - 16 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi, I personally like Honda 750cc, because i own one. I have taken this bike on few long journies too and it never gave me any trouble.
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Bunny Lingus
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PostPosted: 14:00 - 17 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm a single cylinder fan. One pots rule. They have torquey characteristics that twins & fours lack. If you wanna 'thrapp the berries', consider a single. I still have my old Yamaha SRX 600 which now needs total restoration but in its heyday & on twisty roads it used to impress the hell out of me. Light weight, good handling & usable power are the things I value most about two wheeled transport. 40hp pulling 150kg doesn't look like much on paper but it feels fast when you're on it in the same way driving an old school Mini Cooper does.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 14:36 - 17 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bunny Lingus wrote:
40hp pulling 150kg doesn't look like much on paper but it feels fast when you're on it in the same way driving an old school Mini Cooper does.

It'll feel fast-ish at legal speeds. Won't have as much top end for A-road overtaking and you'll get left behind immediately on straights if anyone cares to open up. But it's the kind of bike you can reach the limits of on the road, which is its own kind of fun.
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caferacer
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PostPosted: 17:50 - 21 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bunny Lingus wrote:
I'm a single cylinder fan. One pots rule.


Yeah I do like the idea of a thumper but thought they were all choppers or dirtbikes?

I want something that looks old school but not chopper / bobber which is nimble enough to throw into corners so it has to be light (or really well balanced) but wont get left behind up the hills.

I think maybe a Honda CB 750 I4 stripped right back to bare.

Can hardtails ever be chuckable and nippy?
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 21:03 - 21 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
caferacer wrote:
Can hardtails ever be chuckable and nippy?

The primary function of suspension is to keep the wheels in contact with the road. I wouldn't try to chuck a hardtail bike around English country roads without knowing exactly where the bumps are.
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 00:14 - 22 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
caferacer wrote:
Can hardtails ever be chuckable and nippy?
Go watch a classic trail and pay attention to the 'rigid' (no rear suspension class)
Go watch a speed-way... they have rigid frames too.
So, err yes, a bike with no back suspension CAN be nippy and can be 'chuckable'

A 'hard-tail' however, a specific kind of 'rigid'; specifically a custom road bike, commonly with a scratch-built stretched and rake frame; probably not really.

The term 'hard tail' actually comes from when Harley created a bike with single shock cantilever rear suspension, hiding the shock-absorber, and aping the lines of a rigid frame and called it the 'soft-tail'.

But then a chopper is actually a person, who builds 'chopped' bikes, and that also derives from 1950's brit bikes; where practice of 'chopping' the head-stock was common to reduce the rake and wheel-base of a trials-special.

Curiously, very few 'chopper' motorcycles are actually 'chopped'.
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