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_mjs_
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PostPosted: 12:21 - 23 May 2014    Post subject: Car insurance Reply with quote

Hi all,
I passed my driving test this morning and have been running insurance quotes on comparison sites.

These websites ask for the date I got my full driver's license and I've noticed that if I take this literally and put down that I got my full license in 2012 when I passed my bike test, the quotes come back about £500 cheaper.

So my question is basically this; if I tell them I have had my license two years rather than two hours, am I risking being done for fraud? Laughing

Thanks chaps,
-Mark
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Monkeypony
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 23 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of companies are asking to see copies of documents these days, so if they do and decide there is a discrepancy, they'll hit you with a new premium and an admin charge for the adjustment.

Best to be sure before you click 'buy'!
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arry
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PostPosted: 12:32 - 23 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not at risk of being done for fraud - unless of course you admit to wilful deception (doh Doh! ).

In the event of the insurer investigating, either as part of a random audit or as part of an investigation into a claim, the insurer may consider your disclosures to be inaccurate and, therefore, attempt to avoid the contract on the grounds of non-disclosure.

However, there are protections for the consumer in this respect against the insurer where the non-disclosure is found to be innocent.

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/7/july-innocent-non-disclosure.htm

In particular this is relevant:
The ABI (Association of British Insurers) Statement of General Insurance Practice requires firms not to repudiate a claim on the grounds:

of the customer's failure to disclose a material fact, if that fact was one that a customer could not reasonably be expected to disclose; or
of misrepresentation, unless it is a deliberate or negligent misrepresentation of a material fact.
The same Statement also requires insurers:

to include clear questions on application forms about matters insurers have commonly found to be material; and
not to ask questions requiring knowledge which the signatory could not reasonably be expected to possess.

So....If the question is unclear, then.....

However - be aware that you're running your quotes through a generic Compare the Meerkat type website and all that does is provide a feed through into the back office system of the panel insurer. The insurer's question can vary, as can the statement of fact they'll issue to you as part of your contract to show you your disclosures. This can vary so much so that I have seen on occasion:

Aggregator website question Date test passed
Statement of Fact disclosure Date practical car driving test passed

See the difference?

My advice is just to play it with a straight bat and make clean disclosures because it's not worth the hassle. However, there's going to be a lot of 'stick it to 'em' 'insurers are all robbing c£^ts' answers that will come back on this - some more thought out than others - who will tell you to just try the cheat way. I'm sure those people will be fully qualified and readily available to represent you in court should the worst happen, of course, and in fact some of them may even offer to pay your legal costs, damages and fine.
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_mjs_
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PostPosted: 12:58 - 23 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
However - be aware that you're running your quotes through a generic Compare the Meerkat type website and all that does is provide a feed through into the back office system of the panel insurer. The insurer's question can vary, as can the statement of fact they'll issue to you as part of your contract to show you your disclosures. This can vary so much so that I have seen on occasion:

Aggregator website question Date test passed
Statement of Fact disclosure Date practical car driving test passed

See the difference?


Thanks Arry.

While I would certainly never intentionally deceive the insurance industry, if I decide to take their question at face value and find nothing in the small print, what would be the likely consequence if my innocent mistake was noticed at some point further down the line?
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dolly3900
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PostPosted: 13:24 - 23 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you are getting insurance quotes for a car, the question is relevant to the vehicle you are insuring.

If you were to put in a quote for a double decker bus, you would not put in the date you passed your bike test as the licence does not cover you to drive that class of vehicle.

Only in pedantry would your scenario stand up, in a court of law when you are trying to get off a charge of no insurance due to mis-disclosure of facts? i think not

Mike
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JP7
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PostPosted: 13:36 - 23 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

As above, if you're going for car insurance then the question will be about your car licence. But some companies ask about whether you use other vehicles or hold other licences, or have earned no claims bonus on another vehicle, so this may be a chance to declare you've been on the road longer and reduce your premium.

Sometimes it's worth a phone call to the insurer who is quoting just to clarify. As an example, I once rang my insurer about my home insurance, in relation to whether my house is occupied during the day. I work shifts, sometimes days, sometimes nights. When I raised it with them, they put "occupied day and night" and my premium went down.
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arry
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PostPosted: 13:50 - 23 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolly3900 wrote:
As you are getting insurance quotes for a car, the question is relevant to the vehicle you are insuring.

If you were to put in a quote for a double decker bus, you would not put in the date you passed your bike test as the licence does not cover you to drive that class of vehicle.

Only in pedantry would your scenario stand up, in a court of law when you are trying to get off a charge of no insurance due to mis-disclosure of facts? i think not

Mike


Oh - so what about when the question set asks for any claims or convictions, does that only apply to car driving too then? Wink If the question isn't clear on its intention.....

The question must be clear and the customer can not be reasonably expected to make an assumptive jump such as 'well I'm applying for car insurance so it must mean car'. If the date is 'date licence obtained' then the sheer ambiguity of it would fall against the insurer and stand up in court no problem - believe me, I've been there, and insurers lose on count of ambiguity with a frightening high %.

If the customer has given reasonable answers with reasonable intent and it's just the question set being highly ambiguous that's sent them down the wrong path then the insurer won't have a leg to stand on.

With all that said, it'll still go the way of the FOS, and sometimes even after the FOS has ruled in customer's favour it'll still go to court. Hence I'd not want it hanging over me.

Quote:
While I would certainly never intentionally deceive the insurance industry, if I decide to take their question at face value and find nothing in the small print, what would be the likely consequence if my innocent mistake was noticed at some point further down the line?


Ultimately, you'd file under innocent non-disclosure and the insurer would have a burden of proof imposed upon them to show otherwise in order to successfully void the contract. Depending on the strength of the question set and the FOS's mood on the day, they'd either find that you're an innocent party and that the insurer has failed to ask a clear question, and the loss would be settled in full, or they'd suggest a split proportional settlement, ie you paid £500, but should have paid £1000, so they'll settle 50% of the claim, or they'll find against you that you were a bit too stupid for belief's sake and therefore you're not innocent of deliberately misrepresenting your risk.
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0l0dom0l0
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PostPosted: 14:28 - 23 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually this was bought up a while ago and it turned out that the companies were asking when it says 'when did you get your license' they actually meant when did your license turn pink.

The best thing to do is ring and ask, they will know and that way you won't get stung with any horrible charges later etc.

Just ring them and ask.

EDIT: Thread is here:

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=229939&highlight=insurance

and here:

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=226402
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 17:31 - 23 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one that really annoys me is that I can have a speeding offence removed from my licence after 3 years yet have to declare it to the insurance for 5.

If it's not on my licence then I can honestly say I haven't got an endorsement.

I know I would get ass raped if I crash but it still pisses me off that the courts regard it as finished after 3 years but the wankers in insurance put their own timeline on it.
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-Matt-
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PostPosted: 00:34 - 24 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
The one that really annoys me is that I can have a speeding offence removed from my licence after 3 years yet have to declare it to the insurance for 5.

If it's not on my licence then I can honestly say I haven't got an endorsement.

I know I would get ass raped if I crash but it still pisses me off that the courts regard it as finished after 3 years but the wankers in insurance put their own timeline on it.
On that note - as its expired in license terms, whether you're lying, forgetful, or confused about the question - is there any offiicial record of it beyond 3 years Thinking or is that based on the previous years insurance informing them of x-conviction and them being able to refer back to previous policies.
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1198
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PostPosted: 05:41 - 24 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

If possible I'd ask questions by email. Although I 'know' that 'some calls may be recorded', I'd rather have a trail of their answers to come back to if need be.
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MattEMulsion
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PostPosted: 07:26 - 24 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why does everybody seem to be complicating this - you are insuring a car and they want to know when you passed your car test. They are not asking you if you may have a full licence for another class of vehicle, you are all reading to much potential technicality into a badly worded question.

My advise - be honest, answer the question properly and it won't come back to bite you on the arse!!!
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arry
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PostPosted: 07:52 - 24 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

-Matt- wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
The one that really annoys me is that I can have a speeding offence removed from my licence after 3 years yet have to declare it to the insurance for 5.

If it's not on my licence then I can honestly say I haven't got an endorsement.

I know I would get ass raped if I crash but it still pisses me off that the courts regard it as finished after 3 years but the wankers in insurance put their own timeline on it.
On that note - as its expired in license terms, whether you're lying, forgetful, or confused about the question - is there any offiicial record of it beyond 3 years Thinking or is that based on the previous years insurance informing them of x-conviction and them being able to refer back to previous policies.


There's the data you've offered up already, ie your previous disclosures to fall back on which may be enough to raise suspicion to ask for a disclosure on your licence status from DVLA.

Generally speaking a speeding conviction that's over 3 years old wouldn't be considered a rating factor as long as your licence is otherwise clean; if you had one 4 years ago and one 6 months ago, then the one that's 6 months old would be loaded for more heavily, but otherwise the one in the past is discounted.
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 08:26 - 24 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

dont know about the licence question but my missuses insurance this year was 100 quid cheaper then last year

same insurers everything the same except she got done last year twice for speeding and got 6 points
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weasley
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PostPosted: 08:40 - 24 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

andyscooter wrote:
...same insurers everything the same...


She never aged a year?! Shocked
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arry
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PostPosted: 08:43 - 24 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

weasley wrote:

She never aged a year?! Shocked


Now that's the kind of missus I need.
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