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Technological advancements of the last decade.

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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 22:31 - 26 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
I don't see for road rider's how 190-200bhp 1000cc engines that have to rev to 14000rpm, and make the same torque as 140-150bhp 1000cc engines is a forwards step? I should stop harping on about this, but litre bikes used to pull like bastards at 3-4000rpm, not so anymore!

Tyre development has been much more amazing than anything else so far, but I suppose bikes finally getting as clean as cars without having the performance severely impaired is a good step forward.

Big piston forks?

compact bike suitable ABS?

Performance, and styling and the showcasing/willy waving of trick expensive to build and well made special sportsbikes has gone very backwards though!

I don't believe that Honda could build a bike as good as the RC30/45 again if they tried for example!


Is this down to having to meet emissions?

I know modern bikes often have power/noise/emissions flatspots in the mid rev range, could it be that torque has been sacrificed at that point, in order to meet the requirements?
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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 22:34 - 26 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentalboy wrote:
I'll take a pair of any modern road tyres over the offerings from the eighties. I would hope that Chinese 'Flung-dungs' have improved over the years but to get the same traction they offered back then you'd need a large tub of axle grease to give a suitable re-creation!


But are you talking about like-for-like 80s v modern day comparison? So mid-range 80s tyre v mid-range modern tyre?

Or the best of the best from the 80s versus an average tyre from today.
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 23:00 - 26 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

LlamaFarmer wrote:
mentalboy wrote:
I'll take a pair of any modern road tyres over the offerings from the eighties. I would hope that Chinese 'Flung-dungs' have improved over the years but to get the same traction they offered back then you'd need a large tub of axle grease to give a suitable re-creation!


But are you talking about like-for-like 80s v modern day comparison? So mid-range 80s tyre v mid-range modern tyre?

Or the best of the best from the 80s versus an average tyre from today.


For comparison's sake, like for like. (The Chinese shit was just cheap and nasty.). I remember being blown away in the early nineties by the introduction of the Bridgestone Battlax, which was, I believe, the first 'off the shelf' dual compound tyre.
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Charlie
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PostPosted: 06:49 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think motorbikes massively lag behind in technology when compared to cars, but they do cost less and the high end motorbike market is much smaller than cars.

Guess the whole emissions rules muffle (Rolling Eyes) our perception of improvement. Bikes are producing the same/slightly more power while producing less emissions.

I still think modern bikes have crap fuel economy, they should be getting way over a 100mpg! Modern cars get better fuel efficiency than some bikes. Although cars are boring to drive and bikes aren't.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 08:09 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie wrote:

I still think modern bikes have crap fuel economy, they should be getting way over a 100mpg! Modern cars get better fuel efficiency than some bikes. Although cars are boring to drive and bikes aren't.


Depends what you're comparing really.

A CG125 compared to a Honda Jazz would be fair. A Hayabusa compared to a Jazz wouldn't be.
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Amber Phoenix
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PostPosted: 08:15 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

SatNav / GPS.

Granted, not bike specific, but I don't recall the last time I went on a ride out on an unfamiliar road and didn't whip out phone to check position on map and work out where I'm going next. Hard to imagine it's only been 12 years since TomTom released their first SatNav...

I totally accept a GPS isn't a must have, but it's reached a point of such ubiquitous that it's become the default thing to use when even slightly unsure of route, let alone lost. Even if more fun can be had from just exploring.
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Shinigami
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PostPosted: 08:59 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

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dydey90
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PostPosted: 10:49 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely think it's all the development that's gone into 400cc sports bikes Rolling Eyes

Seriously though, I think earbuds are a big one. They comfortably fit under a helmet for music/satnav. They've been around since way before I could ride, but I wouldn't want to try to fit in a full set of headphones under my lid.
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Bubblin77
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PostPosted: 15:28 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie wrote:
I think motorbikes massively lag behind in technology when compared to cars, but they do cost less and the high end motorbike market is much smaller than cars.

Guess the whole emissions rules muffle (Rolling Eyes) our perception of improvement. Bikes are producing the same/slightly more power while producing less emissions.

I still think modern bikes have crap fuel economy, they should be getting way over a 100mpg! Modern cars get better fuel efficiency than some bikes. Although cars are boring to drive and bikes aren't.


Bikes only produce more bhp due to the insane rpm they reach, being smaller than a general car engine,

What they lack is outright torque, I'd live to see a very high torque 100hp bike engine, that pulls from 1000rpm till the redline.

What we've missed in the bike world, 20,000 miles or 2 year servicing,

Bluetooth connected audio systems, truely keyless ignition, launch control, supercharged and turbo charged smaller capacity engines, anti dazzle mirrors, fully combined braking that's intelligent,

We've had these in cars for years.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 17:02 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratch resistant visors.

Anyone who rode in the 70's & 80's will know that you only had to touch the dammed things and they were scratched. So much so that Bob Heath brought out a glass visor (plastic backing). Same that it reduced vison so much....
Now you can wipe your fingers over them and its fine.

Overall. A increase in suspension and handling...
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c-m
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PostPosted: 17:22 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

LlamaFarmer wrote:

Does timed laps on the new Bridgestone T30 sports touring tyre vs the Battlax BT-014 count as evidence?

MCN compared the two tyres on the same bike at Anglesey and found them better in every single area...


Not really, but it's probably as good as we'll get. Do they heat up faster? do they perform better in the wet? Are they more resistant to punctures? Do they have a higher grip co-efficient? If so how does that affect drag?

There just haven't been any scientific tests.
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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 19:05 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

c-m wrote:
LlamaFarmer wrote:

Does timed laps on the new Bridgestone T30 sports touring tyre vs the Battlax BT-014 count as evidence?

MCN compared the two tyres on the same bike at Anglesey and found them better in every single area...


Not really, but it's probably as good as we'll get. Do they heat up faster? do they perform better in the wet? Are they more resistant to punctures? Do they have a higher grip co-efficient? If so how does that affect drag?

There just haven't been any scientific tests.


I'm not sure scientific tests such as frictional co-efficient etc are necessary if the real-world tests are performed.

However one track test does not suffice for enough comparison.
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Pigeon
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi-viz's are 50% higher in viz than they were 10 years ago.
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djrikki
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie wrote:
I think motorbikes massively lag behind in technology when compared to cars, but they do cost less and the high end motorbike market is much smaller than cars.

Guess the whole emissions rules muffle (Rolling Eyes) our perception of improvement. Bikes are producing the same/slightly more power while producing less emissions.

I still think modern bikes have crap fuel economy, they should be getting way over a 100mpg! Modern cars get better fuel efficiency than some bikes. Although cars are boring to drive and bikes aren't.


This fucked me off no end when I got my 600 a couple of weeks ago. I'm getting about 140 miles out of 13 or 14 litres. Rough guesstimate.

I worked it out before at 9p a mile on a 600cc bike weighing 240kg. Compared to 30p a mile in my 3400cc car weighing over 1400kg. That's bullshit. And my car has 4 cats and is 5 years old.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:22 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno what's improved in the last decade - never had anything newer than a 2002 bike, so apart from tyres, I'll just have to take everybody's word for all that ABS, TC, remappable ECUs etc Smile

And as for extras, Sat Nav, GPS and the like, I still use paper maps Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:19 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

djrikki wrote:
I worked it out before at 9p a mile

That'd be 65mpg, which is pretty good for a 600+ bike.

I mean, relative to bikes. Compared to cars, it is indeed disappointing. Slippery rascals.
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Charlie
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PostPosted: 21:36 - 27 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
Charlie wrote:

I still think modern bikes have crap fuel economy, they should be getting way over a 100mpg! Modern cars get better fuel efficiency than some bikes. Although cars are boring to drive and bikes aren't.


Depends what you're comparing really.

A CG125 compared to a Honda Jazz would be fair. A Hayabusa compared to a Jazz wouldn't be.


The Jazz will comfortably do over 70mph where as a cg won't.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 04:29 - 28 May 2014    Post subject: Re: Technological advancements of the last decade. Reply with quote

I remember the 80's.
Folk bought new bikes because anything old enough to have an MOT was a technological dinosaur.
Road-Bikes had been making as much power as GP machines for a decade, and kept pace with them for most of the 80's.
Everything had more acronyms emblazoned on it than a Motivational Management seminar hand-out, boasting of the incorporated 'innovations'.
Tyre technology went from tubed bicycle tyres to modern tubless, multi-compound radials, in barely a decade.
Engines went from push-rod twins to water-cooled multi-valve fours.
Fuel injection was already on some production bikes, even at the start of the 80's.
Forks didn't know if they were inside out, upside down or coming or going, with various alternative 'front end' designs.
Frames went from steel bicycle tube cradles, to fabricated aluminium 'chassis', with all manner of designs in between and beyond.
A lot of the technology that was being championed in that decade has fallen by the way-side.

To my eyes, the last two decades, the boffins have lost the 'chair' to be replaced by the accountants at the design reviews.

'Value Engineering' has been the name of the game; bringing performance levels down to the minimum the market will stand, and reducing make costs to maximise margins; making stuff 'cheaper', not 'better'.

I would say that there hasn't been ANY significant 'innovation' in the last decade.

Drax wrote:
We all now have the same power available to us as 500ccGP bikes. How good is that?

In 1931 you could buy a Norton International, thier GP & TT race bike with lights, over the counter. This was not novel, even then.
1973, Kawasaki launched the Z1 900, with 90bhp, as much power, in a production street-bike, as Giacomo Agostini's works only MV Agusta 'four' GP racer of the season before.
In 1985, The Yamaha V-Max boasted it was the worlds most powerful production motorcycle with 145bhp... which was as much as Yamaha claimed for thier TZ500 GP bike.
1998, The Yamaha R1 claimed 160bhp from a standard production motorcyle; about as much as the last of the two-stroke 500 GP bikes had 'peaked' at.

It's hardly a startling, new novel or never been heard of 'boast'. As for how 'good' it is? Well... err... other than something to brag about.... doesn't REALLY make much odds to my life one iota... anything with more than 100bhp is going to have more than I am likely to use very often on public roads.

Drax wrote:
Also ABS to stop us (in a straight line)

Not an innovation of the last decade. BMW pioneered it in the late 80's; was available on some honda's in the 90's.

Old Git Racing wrote:
Got to be advancements in fuel injection/ECU technology

The technology hasn't fundementally changed though; its just got 'cheaper'. BMW had EFI on a production bike by 1982, with the K100. The 'advancements' of the last thirty years have simply seen the digital map increase in the number of possible data-points that can be stored, and the number of variables that might be used to interpolate values between them between cycles, thanks to smaller, cheaper, faster processors. Meanwhile EFI does little or nothing that cant be done with a carburettor... it's just easier to make changes!
Old Git Racing wrote:
in addition to improved lighter engine and chassis components

Hmmm... so why have bikes been following a trend that's seen them, on average, getting heavier?
Specifically, the only really novel thing I can think to support this suggestion is the use of titanium valves in the R1. Novel , yes for a production bike, but, something of 'quirk'. Other examples, such as Hondas claims for crank-shaft weights, are more to do with more accurate stress modeling in computer aided design; which has been going on since the early 90's. And something I recall was a headline feature of the Rover K-Series engine circa 1993.
Meanwhile, back to the 80's. Carbon fibre was a wonder material of the era, and central to the plot of the Film Silver-Dream-Racer; it's now fairly common-place and quite derigeur in some circles, yet, back in the '80's they were making bikes with lightweight carbon over carbon chassis and swing arms, that were far lighter, and stiffer than the supposedly 'lightweight' structures of aluminium on offer to day; They were using titanium for con-rods and exhausts, even fully ceramic pistons, in race bikes of the era.... technology quarter of a century old, still not filtering into production bikes.
Shinigami wrote:
Pinlock!

Was available in the late 90's.

sickpup wrote:
So what do people think are the best technological advancements in motorcycles of the last decade?


So the answer is very subjective and dependent on your interpretation of the question.

As my old Grandad used to say, 'there's little been invented since the wheel... its all just wheels and axles, and beams, pivots and screws at the end of the day; just in a different order... Yanks are very good at finding old ideas and re-inventing them; [talking of Motorcycles in the 80's] Japanese are just doing the same"

The technology has always been there, its just what and how its exploited or put to market; or probably more significantly, shouted about in the sales brochures... and that probably shows more about our change in 'values' these days than it does what the engineers can do.

And unlike the 1980's, when a 'new' middleweight had performance and speed and handling I just could not get in any one bike that needed an MOT, and if I wanted that all-round package, I HAD to buy new... There is NOTHING in the modern sales brochures that even remotely gets me exited and want to buy a brand new motorbike!

I think that last thing that got me remotely exited was the Yamaha MT01... mainly because it showed a complete lack of technological advancement, reverting back to a huge Harley-esque push-rod twin!

I think that motorcycle technology has evolved to a point of stagnation, not seen since the Brit-Twin era, which probably only lasted a decade or so; where the modern 'Universal-Japanese- Motorcycle' of 'transverse , multi-valve 'four' in beam chassis has survived remarkably 'the same' for almost thirty years.

Best Technological improvement? With so little leaping out for so long? I think that POSSIBLY... the 'best' is yet to come.

SOMETHING has to break the mould; there has to be something waiting in the wings that will send shock waves through the industry and shake it up, and promote change again... we haven't seen anything like that since 1993.... its long over due.

Question has to be, what will it be? what will it DO? and will we like it!?
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deadwolf
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PostPosted: 05:55 - 28 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.motorcycleclassics.com/~/media/Images/MCC/Editorial/Motorcycle%20Classics%20Database/1993/Britten/1993%20Britten%20V1000/Britten-V1000-IMG_5422.jpg

The fact that this bike came out in the 90's makes me suspect that technology has actually regressed as opposed to progressed since the last decade.

Still waiting for the next big engineering game-changer. Modern bikes look, well, modern and sharp and all that, but it's like their chassis and fairings were meant for bikes from twenty years into the future, but forced onto the same old front forks and swingarm configuration.
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Hokum
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PostPosted: 06:36 - 28 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tbh the next big thing probably won't have an ice in it... electric will make huge changes to bikes.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 07:01 - 28 May 2014    Post subject: Re: Technological advancements of the last decade. Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
So what do people think are the best technological advancements in motorcycles of the last decade?

For me its carbon fibre element heated clothing.


Yep, was pretty sure I said the last decade...
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 08:04 - 28 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most important technological change over the past decade is the one to which we riders pay very little direct attention: emissions control.

The Euro II standard was introduced in 2003/2004 and required that larger motorcycles emit no more than 5.5 grams of CO2 per km. The previous Euro I standard was 13g/km. Then Euro III, which was introduced in 2006, mandated 2g/km.

1999: Euro I - 13.0
2003: Euro II - 5.5
2006: Euro III - 2.0
2016: Euro IV - 1.14 (as far as I can make out)

In other words, a new model bike in 2014 that is compliant with Euro IV is putting out about 9% (less than one-tenth!) of the CO2 that a 1999 bike would produce and 20% or one-fifth of that generated by a 2003 Euro II-compliant bike. And there have been similar targeted cuts in output of nitrogen oxides (NOx) and hydrocarbons.

You can't achieve reductions of that scale without affecting the way the engine makes power. This explains why a lot of bikes may appear to have made no progress since the 1990s in terms of power output. The designers are running just to stand still. Despite this, the fact that a modern supersports bike will blitz an equivalent bike from 1994 is a tribute to how much effort the manufacturers have put into R&D to mitigate the effects of emission control legislation. The point is that there's a huge amount of technology being directed at bikes, just not much that's visible on the surface.

But there are limits to what can be achieved. In theory, we'd all like bikes to be lighter, faster, more economical and less polluting. The problem is resources. Once at a meeting with Toyota management I asked why Toyota doesn't spend more time on "XYZ"; I forget exactly what we were discussing, it may have been diesel engines. Their answer, paraphrased, was this:

"We may be the largest car manufacturer in the world, but even we have a finite number of engineers. It takes us less than 30 hours to build a good car, but it takes 30 years to build a good engineer."

Everybody has finite resources. Honda, Yamaha everybody. We may not agree with the way they way they use those resources and we can and should vote with our wallets. But a lot of what the bike manufacturers do is determined by what regulation requires them to do, not what their managements want to do.
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Last edited by slowlydoesit on 09:45 - 28 May 2014; edited 2 times in total
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:19 - 28 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowlydoesit wrote:
5.5 grams of CO2 per km.

InB4 ninja edit.

All particulate smoke and cycle beating mirrors anyway.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 09:41 - 28 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

Particularly annoying when we're having to pay for lower emissions in the form of higher costs for new vehicles. If we're paying to reduce NOx, I for one would like to see lower NOx... Rolling Eyes
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krarkol
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PostPosted: 09:42 - 28 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bubblin77 wrote:


Bikes only produce more bhp due to the insane rpm they reach, being smaller than a general car engine,

What they lack is outright torque, I'd live to see a very high torque 100hp bike engine, that pulls from 1000rpm till the redline.


Yamaha MT-01 Wink
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