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tbourner
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PostPosted: 08:53 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Duck! Reply with quote
Are ducks more important than bikers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skXN6-lrdAw

I'm going with 50/50: Don't stop in the fast lane + poor obs.
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 09:08 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
It seems to me her crime was for stopping for an invalid reason. Maybe if she'd stopped for a large obstruction (a big piece of something fallen from a truck) the blame would have shifted to the bikers.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 09:22 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
As I know people that ride cruisers, they only use the rear brake. So, I'd knock a few years off the sentence for that. Thumbs Up
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Hokum
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PostPosted: 09:40 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmm the chap at the end says that cruisers are hard to stop... Err I know their heavy but they can't be that hard to stop surely?

Also :
A: Did this woman just slam on the brakes and cause the accident cause of suddenly stopping.

B: Were there cars in the right hand lane so she could just avoid the kittens, I mean ducks.

C: If she stopped and had hazard warning lights and the bikes were at a distance, I.E. to the bikes the car was always stopped then surely the bikes should of avoided the car?

I mean if the car had broken down, or any valid reason to stop (not this case) then the bikes should be able to avoid the obstruction.

In the end it seems to be a case of an accident caused by a person stopping for a non acceptable reason.
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tbourner
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PostPosted: 10:02 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
It sounded like she was out of the car and trying to round up the ducks, so the bikers must have had enough time to notice it stopped. Probably didn't have hazards on but meh.
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anthony_r6
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PostPosted: 10:19 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
tbourner wrote:
It sounded like she was out of the car and trying to round up the ducks, so the bikers must have had enough time to notice it stopped. Probably didn't have hazards on but meh.


I assume the left hand lane is their overtaking lane? It's quite possible there were cars between the bikes and stopped car which did get out the way, but stopped the view of the car for the bikes.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 10:27 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hokum wrote:
Hmm the chap at the end says that cruisers are hard to stop... Err I know their heavy but they can't be that hard to stop surely?

No.
https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/effective-braking-street-survival
Quote:
It turns out that measured stops with expert riders from 100 km/h (just over 60 mph) required an average of just 7 inches more on a Honda GL1500 Valkyrie than on Honda CBR929RR.


With sticky tyres, decent suspension and sufficient braking leverage (i.e. actual amount of braking effort that can be applied to the wheels), I believe a cruiser ought to be able to out-brake a sportsbike, because a sportsbike braking at the limit is on the point of going into a stoppie from short wheelbase and high centre of gravity, whereas that limit is further away for a cruiser - it can use more of the tyres' grip.

Weight shouldn't matter - friction is proportional to normal force.

I've gotten into long discussions on this forum about it before, though, so I won't be following up if anyone contradicts me. It looks fairly incontrovertible to me, except for one thing: at lower speeds, where a sportsbike won't actually flip if it goes into a stoppie, it should be possible for it to stop sooner than something like a cruiser, because rather than rotating around the front wheel, the cruiser weight pushes the front forward. But that's about it, and a matter of inches at most.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 10:28 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
barrkel wrote:
Hokum wrote:
Hmm the chap at the end says that cruisers are hard to stop... Err I know their heavy but they can't be that hard to stop surely?

No.
https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/effective-braking-street-survival
Quote:
It turns out that measured stops with expert riders from 100 km/h (just over 60 mph) required an average of just 7 inches more on a Honda GL1500 Valkyrie than on Honda CBR929RR.


With sticky tyres, decent suspension and sufficient braking leverage (i.e. actual amount of braking effort that can be applied to the wheels), I believe a cruiser ought to be able to out-brake a sportsbike, because a sportsbike braking at the limit is on the point of going into a stoppie from short wheelbase and high centre of gravity, whereas that limit is further away for a cruiser - it can use more of the tyres' grip.

Weight shouldn't matter - friction is proportional to normal force.

I've gotten into long discussions on this forum about it before, though, so I won't be following up if anyone contradicts me. It looks fairly incontrovertible to me, except for one thing: at lower speeds, where a sportsbike won't actually flip if it goes into a stoppie, it should be possible for it to stop sooner than something like a cruiser, because rather than rotating around the front wheel, the cruiser weight pushes the front forward. But that's about it, and a matter of inches at most.


Cruisers are far more likely to lock the front and fall over than a sports bike, when braking upright.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 10:50 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
barrkel wrote:
Weight shouldn't matter - friction is proportional to normal force.


Momentum is not though...

There are many components to this argument, but just focusing on weight weight increases the initial momentum thus the total force required to stop a heavier bike is greater. Same bike with two passengers will stop in a greater distance than with one.

Like I said, lots of components to the argument though so a straight call between sports/cruiser is difficult to make and is probably as worthwhile as all other stats based vehicle willy waving...
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BrownTrousers
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PostPosted: 10:53 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmm this is a tricky one.

One the one hand it is clearly all kinds of stupid to park in the fast lane of a highway.

On the other hand, its hard not to feel like any vehicle travelling at a reasonable distance behind the one in front should be able to avoid an accident like this. The fact it is ducklings make it seem the car driver was being even more silly but it could just as easily be a cow / shed trailer load / RTA etc. causing an obstruction and everybody, even cruisers (!), would be expected to stop safely.

I wonder if the community really feels any safer by sending the woman to prison (although I'd certainly feel safer by taking away driving privileges).
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another way to think of it: if you're going to cause the death of two motorists behind you it better be for a very good/worthy/valid reason.

Hers clearly wasn't.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 12:35 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hetzer wrote:
Another way to think of it: if you're going to cause the death of two motorists behind you it better be for a very good/worthy/valid reason.

Hers clearly wasn't.


I made this very point to my ex when she tried to avoid a rabbit with me in the car - she'd only had her license about 5 weeks. A few months later she drove into a fox on a dual carriageway without slowing... I was proud.
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Hokum
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PostPosted: 12:56 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:

I made this very point to my ex when she tried to avoid a rabbit with me in the car - she'd only had her license about 5 weeks. A few months later she drove into a fox on a dual carriageway without slowing... I was proud.


Having seen a badger write off a Volvo, I'd probably try to avoid a fox...
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 13:04 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hokum wrote:
daemonoid wrote:

I made this very point to my ex when she tried to avoid a rabbit with me in the car - she'd only had her license about 5 weeks. A few months later she drove into a fox on a dual carriageway without slowing... I was proud.


Having seen a badger write off a Volvo, I'd probably try to avoid a fox...


What was the badger driving?
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 13:32 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hetzer wrote:
Hokum wrote:


Having seen a badger write off a Volvo, I'd probably try to avoid a fox...


What was the badger driving?


The badger was in the Volvo. Rolling Eyes He rolled it.
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goto10
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
Hetzer wrote:
Another way to think of it: if you're going to cause the death of two motorists behind you it better be for a very good/worthy/valid reason.

Hers clearly wasn't.


I made this very point to my ex when she tried to avoid a rabbit with me in the car - she'd only had her license about 5 weeks. A few months later she drove into a fox on a dual carriageway without slowing... I was proud.


I have a friend who did this to us - (she was, and still is, a supremely crap driver) - there were 10 of us going out for a day convoying in two cars - I was a passenger in the car behind, she was driving the car in front when she suddenly did an emergency stop whilst travelling at 60~70mph on a single carriageway NSL road - we [obviously] also did an emergency stop and missed the rear of her car by millimetres - the car behind us almost hit us and so on - miraculously no collisions happened but it was f'king close. It turned out that a rabbit had ran out in front of her (she ended up hitting (and killing) it anyway) but to this day she still reckons we were to blame for nearly rear-ending her car. She can't see why what she did was wrong Rolling Eyes
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:20 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, baby rabbits are correctly termed kittens.

goto10 wrote:
to this day she still reckons we were to blame for nearly rear-ending her car.

Do you reckon that you're not? Thinking

Two cu​nts don't make a right.
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Hokum
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PostPosted: 14:35 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hetzer wrote:

What was the badger driving?


The Badgers head passed through the radiator grill and through the radiator.

Then it walked away! This was a Volvo 340 which were shit.
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dydey90
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PostPosted: 14:51 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Idiot thing to do, but an insurance claim would have gone her way.

Should have left enough of a gap to be able to stop if she did, officially.
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BrownTrousers
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PostPosted: 15:18 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I wonder what would have been the outcome at court if, instead of a motorcycle, it had been a HGV failing to stop and crashing into the back of her, resulting in her own death?

Its not crazy to suggest the HGV driver would be done for dangerous driving (not paying attention, tailgating, whatever), no matter why she originally stopped.

Legitimate obstructions can cause people to stop. It shouldn't be 'miraculous' that people don't just keep ploughing into the back of the person in front.
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goto10
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PostPosted: 18:06 - 26 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Well, baby rabbits are correctly termed kittens.

goto10 wrote:
to this day she still reckons we were to blame for nearly rear-ending her car.

Do you reckon that you're not? Thinking

Two cu​nts don't make a right.


I was a passenger, so definitely not - my halo is intact.
But she was definitely the cause of the problem. But yes, an insurance claim would've probably [definitely] favoured her.
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