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| _Will_ |
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_Will_
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 Posted: 15:33 - 13 Aug 2014  Post subject: Humans Need Not Apply |
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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| Posted: 15:48 - 13 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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I reckon somebody will come along and say Luddite.
Except:
Mechanisation and automation moved millions of people off the land and into manufacturing.
Mechanisation and automation then moved millions out of manufacturing and into services.
Not mechanisation and automation are hitting the services.
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| daemonoid |
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daemonoid
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| Posted: 16:11 - 13 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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Automation will eventually change the world. I've been saying it for a while now - 3d printing (and similar micro-manufacturing), driverless cars will force a new change in humanity.
I think the one thing that the narrator of that piece fails to realise is that jobs are not the definition of people.
Why must people work? Why not provide a minimum living standard and let people get on with it? Economies as we know them need not exist if we have a slave class of robots to do all work for us...
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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| Posted: 16:31 - 13 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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| daemonoid wrote: | Why must people work? Why not provide a minimum living standard and let people get on with it? Economies as we know them need not exist if we have a slave class of robots to do all work for us... |
True communism (USSR was not communist) will is a laudable goal of humans.
The technology did not exist to implement it though.
The problems are many fold:
The people who own the robots aren't going to want to share the output of the robots. Look at the 1% today they certainly don't share. Buffet and some other smart cookies (as well as the Chinese tradition of wealthy handing out free grain/rice) want to pay more tax because they fear a pitch fork moment. Most of the super wealthy want to keep it to themselves. China could be a paradise I really mean that if it wasn't for wealthy hoarding by the corrupt top tiers.
There is an oxymoron moment, why will there be factories filled with robots to make stuff if nobody can buy it, lots of the wealthy depend on billions of consumers.
There is also the transition period which will be painful, we've been transitioning for 30 years now (Adam Smith said that outsourcing and human labour is the failure of technology to do the task at hand) which is why nation states have big structural unemployment problems. Why the mining communities never recovered. The biggie to watch is China, China is starting to automate 400 million angry young men is ripe for disaster.
There is also the what to do problem, a lot of people who aren't at work aren't sure what to do with themselves, many sleep, play video games etc. My parents went down from a 90 hour week (for 45 years) to a 0 hour week and each time I see them they mince about.
Lastly the fact that it has been deeply ingrained in humans that we need to work* we've had to work for 12000 years either for survival (agriculture) or somebody prods us with a pointy stick in order to get rich off our labour. It is deeply ingrained and very difficult to get this out of humans. Consider the fact we haven't domesticated cats yet. Or the Chinese civil service exams, or the modern equivalent gaokao. This was introduced 2000-1500 years ago and it was the ONLY way to gain social mobility in China, today people fuss about exams being everything in China.
Or face, due to the fact we lived in tight communities good standing was required to be accepted and meant death if you were expelled, today we live in loose communities but many need to keep face.
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Itchy
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| The Wobbly Orange |
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The Wobbly Orange
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_Will_
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tbourner
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| daemonoid |
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daemonoid
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| Posted: 09:27 - 14 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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| Itchy wrote: | Thats the idealism, the reality will probably that the elites will seek to exterminate us.
Or society goes Shadowrun/Snowcrash. Where those with robots will live in gigantic compounds like South Africa guarded with autoguns.
Everybody outside forms market systems of their own based on whatever is convenient. |
You need to learn the concepts of game theory and stop watching too many Hollywood movies.
People are motivated by personal gain. Gaining money, power, etc. why would someone working in their own self interest take time out to harm you without gain?
'Elites' as you put it do not try to oppress, their goal is to increase and maintain. It's also worth pointing out that 2/3rds of the worlds 1000 richest are self made so the elite is not an un changing institution, merely an ever present function of society.
The overarching point I'm trying to make is dystopian fascist states are unlikely because they cause rebellion, they make great TV but they would not be an ESS. Try to look past the faux-oppression that has gripped the populous recently and imagine a real future... I'm not saying fluffiness and light for all, but, the goal of no unwanted work brings up so many possibilities.
The chance of a future where you have a free life to do with as you will and yet you're scared that you won't be able to sit behind a desk all day?
<edit> here's a good start - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy
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Last edited by daemonoid on 09:35 - 14 Aug 2014; edited 1 time in total |
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daemonoid
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Hetzer
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| Posted: 10:07 - 14 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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Of course they "try". And they succeed. Or do you actually believe the paying of a non-living wage is accidental? Zero-hour contracts?
Holy mother of god, can you really be this thick? 
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_Will_
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_Will_
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Itchy
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| Posted: 13:37 - 14 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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Say Daemonoid, see the Ferguson martial law imposition lately?
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Mark_F
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Posted: 16:19 - 14 Aug 2014  Post subject: |
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| daemonoid wrote: |
People are motivated by personal gain. Gaining money, power, etc. why would someone working in their own self interest take time out to harm you without gain? |
My personal opinion is that lots of those that "have" will not want to give anything up for those that "have not", and thus will attempt to leave the majority to fight each other/starve.
Granted there will be some smaller portion who see the monetary world for what it should be (just a tool to enable folk to do other work than growing food), who will have the ability, and want, to move on to better things for us all. Sadly though, there will be more of them who will see it as an opportunity to gain more.
I don't think the overly selfish ones (on the other end of the "rich" spectrum) will actively try to do away with the rest of us, but they could be very active in controlling "their" land and "their" produce (be it food or otherwise). For these people money is all. It has long been a mechanism of control (a religion if you will), and when that religion ends they will want to replace it with something else. They feel they are nothing if they are on the same level as everyone else, and that just won't do. They will try to fence themselves off to live in their own walled paradise. How that would play out is anybodies guess. It could be fine (leaving them in there while the rest have plenty outside), but it may not be fine (it depends on what they would try to deny the rest of us).
I do hope things ultimately turn out well, but there is the real possibility of a new dark age where much of our more recent progress could be lost... |
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| Hetzer |
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Hetzer
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| Posted: 17:21 - 14 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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| daemonoid wrote: | | Hetzer wrote: | Motivation: to have the biggest and bestest and mostest of everything.
Tools: Corruption, the 'law', fraud and violence.
Effects: the majority work the hardest for the leastest. |
Very good... You're starting to get it, other than a serious chip on your shoulder type skew on the tools you're spot on. If you were a bit less biased you'd probably come up with tools like economics and law, but I won't argue that they're often bent to breaking point.
So, then... They're motivated by the same things the majority of the population are, they're not actually much different.
And you can now see my point about subtlety - effect is not the motive. You are not important and no one attually is out to get you - merely as a consequence.
It's important that you understand the distinction because a post capitalist world would have the same motivations, just different tools and thus effects... |
You're entirely missing the point, and reality, that omission is as bad as doing. You're not obliged to pull a drowning person out of a river with a rope (safe for you to do) but if you don't you're as bad as a murderer.
Too subtle for you?
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 11 years, 118 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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