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kramdra
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PostPosted: 10:19 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Security Reply with quote
I have an oxford chain, which aware is about as good as a piece of string. Want to put ground anchors in both garages, but street parking there is nothing to lock a bike to. Bikes will be kept on the road a lot. Could get an almax and squire lock for ££££ -are these till considered to be the best? but easily defeated by a £10 battery grinder or hydraulic cutters.

Perhaps GPS tracker is a better use of ££ and a cheaper chain/alarm/lock?

BCF what do you recommend?
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 10:22 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just get a big lock to put off the opportunists. The guys that steal to order if they really want your bike, they'll take it. Regardless of security measures.
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illuminateTHE...
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PostPosted: 10:38 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
almax chain + squire lock + anti pinch pin + immovable object [anchor].

https://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y484/A_yam/antipinch_zps227947b1.jpg
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 11:25 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I doubt if a cheap battery grinder would make it through an Almax, and IIRC one of Alamax's own tests was wrecking a hydraulic cutter. I'm not saying an Almax can't be defeated, but doing so would take a fair bit of time, probably involve a hell of a lot of noise and be beyond all but the most determined thieves. On the other hand 99% of other chains can be cropped in about twenty seconds or less.
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lihp
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PostPosted: 11:54 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Andy_Pagin wrote:
I doubt if a cheap battery grinder would make it through an Almax, and IIRC one of Alamax's own tests was wrecking a hydraulic cutter. I'm not saying an Almax can't be defeated, but doing so would take a fair bit of time, probably involve a hell of a lot of noise and be beyond all but the most determined thieves. On the other hand 99% of other chains can be cropped in about twenty seconds or less.


Hard chains are brittle, soft chains aren't, but can be cut.

Almax prevents cutting by being so hard, but is likely to break with a sledgehammer against the concrete.

So, if using an Almax actually do what they say and make sure it is as short as possible and is in the air, not on hard ground or it is as useless as any other chain.
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Nick 50
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PostPosted: 12:24 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
PhilDawson8270 wrote:


Hard chains are brittle, soft chains aren't, but can be cut.

Almax prevents cutting by being so hard, but is likely to break with a sledgehammer against the concrete.

So, if using an Almax actually do what they say and make sure it is as short as possible and is in the air, not on hard ground or it is as useless as any other chain.


i believe chains like the ones Almax and Pragmasis sell are only surface hardened, so will still retain the ductility in the core which will make it more resistant to sledge hammer attack.
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lihp
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Joined: 22 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nick 50 wrote:
PhilDawson8270 wrote:


Hard chains are brittle, soft chains aren't, but can be cut.

Almax prevents cutting by being so hard, but is likely to break with a sledgehammer against the concrete.

So, if using an Almax actually do what they say and make sure it is as short as possible and is in the air, not on hard ground or it is as useless as any other chain.


i believe chains like the ones Almax and Pragmasis sell are only surface hardened, so will still retain the ductility in the core which will make it more resistant to sledge hammer attack.


I would be surprised if that was the case.

The reason I believe they're not, is if they could withstand both attacks they would demonstrate so like they demonstrate the croppers.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:29 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you're calling them liars then you should ask the ASA to look into it.

Because they both make a big point of it, for exactly the reasons that you spelled out.

Can you do better?
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 12:31 - 10 Sep 2014; edited 1 time in total
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lihp
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PostPosted: 12:30 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
If you're calling them liars then you should ask the ASA to look into it.

Because they both make a big point of it, for exactly the reasons that you spelled out.


If they stand up so well to the attacks, then why have they not got the same promotional videos like they do for the bolt croppers?
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lihp
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PostPosted: 12:37 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e7ALVq1RJc

I guess I may be wrong Thinking
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DrDonnyBrago
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
PhilDawson8270 wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
If you're calling them liars then you should ask the ASA to look into it.

Because they both make a big point of it, for exactly the reasons that you spelled out.


If they stand up so well to the attacks, then why have they not got the same promotional videos like they do for the bolt croppers?



I recall MCN busting an almax 3 with a sledgehammer. There was a bit of moaning from all companies involved over the use of a metal anvil under the fatter chains (i.e. the almax).
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BillyJ
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PostPosted: 12:58 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
The cheap GPS trackers are so crap, the really cheap ones don't use GPS and the ones that do, broadcast location every minute which really isn't necessary(I've had 3 cheap ones).

I use a NCS alarm (Used to be called Cyclone). An Almax III with the squire padlock, around a lampost if I can, if not just through the bike somewhere. Also a disk lock just to be sure.

Someone tried to lift my bike into a van once while I was at home, I heard *beep beep beep* and went to the door to see a ford transit van speeding off, it was too far away to catch the reg though. My point being, if they want it they will get it... all you can do is make it harder with beeping things and a big fuck off chain.
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Nick 50
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PostPosted: 13:03 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
From Almax website:

Quote:
All Almax Immobiliser Series chains are case hardened but tempered back to increase ductility, rather than the norm of leaving the chain with the side effect of through hardening. Although an expensive process to do, this increases the chains resistance to the next level of sledge/wedge and freeze attacks.


Though (obviously) they do not say how it is case hardened and what temperature and time they temper the chains to.

I did contemplate doing my Uni dissertation on bike security chains, but decided against it.
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 13:37 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nick 50 wrote:
I did contemplate doing my Uni dissertation on bike security chains, but decided against it.

Pity, that would have been really interesting (for the rest of us anyway), and probably genuinely useful.
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Northern Monkey
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PostPosted: 14:12 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
illuminateTHEmind wrote:
almax chain + squire lock + anti pinch pin + immovable object [anchor].

https://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y484/A_yam/antipinch_zps227947b1.jpg


This +many many.

The ground anchor is a key component, which means the bike cant be picked up and chucked in a van.

I'm not, however, conviced that a 19mm chain proides significantly more protection than a 16mm chain. Both are uncroppable but cutable using a cutting disk in a battery grinder.

If someone has come equiped to cut the 16mm, they can probably also cut the 19mm, the 19mm, however, has a significant cost and weight penalty
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DrSnoosnoo
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Joined: 28 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: 14:15 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mk1GSF wrote:
Or he would have got a fuckton of grief, like the rest of the folk who come on here asking for help with Uni dissertations do. Razz Mr. Green


Aren't the others just doing an essay for general studies or some crap though? A thorough study, without funding from any interested parties would be welcomed by all.
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Amber Phoenix
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
A 16 or 19mm chain from the likes of Almax or Pragmasis is all well and good when your bikes are chained to something solid. But when they're parked on the road they won't be much use. Your bikes will be lifted into a van easy as pie, where upon they'll remove the chain at their leisure somewhere quiet.

Are there no street lamps or similar street furniture close to you can chain to?
At the very least try to chain the two bikes together whilst parked on the road. This will make it very difficult to lift them and go.

Take a gander at my blog, I rounded up a whole pile of bike security advice on there.
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map
Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Arfa__ wrote:
...Are there no street lamps or similar street furniture close to you can chain to? ...

I was toying with the idea of putting a chain through a drain grate and using that at one time. Depending on size of chain/grate also a smaller U-lock and the chain through that (convenient to leave u-lock in place).

However, in both cases chain on/near ground. However, I was hoping sufficiently close/tight to bike to make breaking difficult. Not had to put this plan into practice yet.
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cheeseman
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Joined: 11 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: 15:32 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
map wrote:
Arfa__ wrote:
...Are there no street lamps or similar street furniture close to you can chain to? ...

I was toying with the idea of putting a chain through a drain grate and using that at one time. Depending on size of chain/grate also a smaller U-lock and the chain through that (convenient to leave u-lock in place).

However, in both cases chain on/near ground. However, I was hoping sufficiently close/tight to bike to make breaking difficult. Not had to put this plan into practice yet.


Couldn't they just then lift out the drain grate?

I'd heard that they use Liq N2 to freeze the chain and just hit it hard with a sledgehammer to break it.
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-Matt-
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Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: 15:44 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I use a NCS alarm (Used to be called Cyclone). An Almax III with the squire padlock, around a lampost if I can, if not just through the bike somewhere. Also a disk lock just to be sure.
This is what I do when I rarely leave it outside somewhere, would go with this personally. You will need at least a 1.5m Almax if you want to get it around street fixings probably though, especially if its a large sportbike size wheel.

They aren't to my knowledge 'easily' defeated by electrical equipment - but it can be done in around a minute or two - series IV chains are no different to the series III's except they take about a minute or two longer to get through with said tools allegedly, so if they're going to that effort in the first place and have a few minutes to work on it you might as well save some money and get a series III, as it will probably be gone either way.
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Nick 50
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PostPosted: 16:48 - 10 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
snoosnoo wrote:


Aren't the others just doing an essay for general studies or some crap though? A thorough study, without funding from any interested parties would be welcomed by all.


That is one of the big barriers (apart from I might have the chance at a very good job if I do a pre-set one) to it is getting the money to buy all the best chains on the market.
(MCN if you're reading and want to help, PM me please Wink )

Saying that, I might still speak to my lecture and see what he thinks of the idea.

In theory, I think it would be a very good project and we have all the gear needed to a lot of testing on the chains and I would like to think the likes of Almax (which is literally a couple of miles from my uni) would welcome a study and learning on how to make their chains stronger.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 23:42 - 12 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
So back on topic, with less theoretical situations. My bike does certainly need a lock and chain, or disc lock, or alarm before I can be riding it to work and parking on the street. My current "master" lock has a snapped key, so Im temporarily using a cheap brass padlock

I stopped briefly at post office today and came back to find a pedboi showing great interest while chatting to his mate in a suspicious car.


BCF, what is a good cheap security option for parking on the road, as a deterrent for minor thieves?
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-Matt-
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PostPosted: 23:54 - 12 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
kramdra wrote:
So back on topic, with less theoretical situations. My bike does certainly need a lock and chain, or disc lock, or alarm before I can be riding it to work and parking on the street. My current "master" lock has a snapped key, so Im temporarily using a cheap brass padlock

I stopped briefly at post office today and came back to find a pedboi showing great interest while chatting to his mate in a suspicious car.


BCF, what is a good cheap security option for parking on the road, as a deterrent for minor thieves?
Cheap disc lock/chain/alarm. For less hassle and no fitting issues - something like an oxford boss alarm disc lock might be of interest for simplicity buying/fitting daily - although not exactly cheap considering what it is compared to buying similar items individually.

Its only an alarm and its not going to stop them lifting it into a van in under a minute if they want it - but its something. If you haven't got a decent chain or more importantly somewhere to chain it TO your best bet is probably something along these lines. An Almax attached to nothing is worse than no chain at all probably considering when its lifted up n' away into the abyss one day you've lost another 150 quid on top of the bike.

Personally I would be wanting to Almax it to something strong if its going to be left outside in a street longterm. Having said that; a friend of mine lives very near Brighton in an 'off-the-road' sort of estate and has had no issues leaving a few bikes with minimal security outside in the road for a year or two. Although plenty of his mates have had bikes nicked in the centre of Brighton and surrouding areas during work with a bit more security thrown in.

A lot of it probably does just come down to 'luck' - but don't be expecting a cheap chain/disc lock and alarm to do much good if someone wants it Thumbs Down
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