Killing the SV with love....and incompetence. Valve shims.

[Pigeon]

Happy New Year all!

For two days I've been in the garage contorting my body, thrashing about in frustration and swearing like a chav through despair.

I knew the valve clearances were tight a couple of months ago, but I was hoping that I could make it to March and the MOT to see if it would pass. The SV's engine has developed a sort of flicking / whirring noise, so I thought I'd better look at replacing the shims and checking the CCT's as they have to come off anyway.

It started ok, getting the valve clearances was alright as had learnt from the last time I tried. And yes, the exhaust valves have tightened up even more and all are out of spec, with inlets bang on the tight side limit.

But it took 2.5 hours to remove the two CCT's with almost no hope of getting the rear back on without a lot of luck I suspect.
That should have given an indication as to how today would go.

All I needed to do was undo the 6 bolts holding the cam chain guards in place, the 24 bolts holding the camshaft housings, whip out the camshafts and finally the shims + buckets.

Picture isn't the best. But can you see the camshaft housing bolts?
They are 10mm flanged bolts as far as I can see, held on (in theory) by 10Nm of force according to Haynes.

https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/141231%20-%20Shim%20Shimeny%20Shim%20Shim%20Sharoo/20150101_171925resized_zps8dc89a22.jpg

But it went wrong. Using my trusty 1996 Halfords 3/8 wrench with 1/4 adaptor for the 10mm socket, it seemed to require a lot of force, then no crack. 1st bolt, 2nd bolt. Hang on, I was just rounding the bolts!! Crapped my pants as I thought I'd basically written off the bike.

In the end, after another 5 hours, I managed to loosen most of the bolts using a short, stubby and thin 10mm ring spanner. It was the only 10mm spanner I had with such a thin ring that it managed to sit below the damage I'd done to the few bolts I'd tried with the socket.

But the top 2 bolts on the inlet cam (left+middle) cannot be done.
The 3 bolts on the exhaust cam on the rear cylinder cannot be done, frame stops access. I have not rounded these, I just can't get an angle with the ring spanner.

The spanner on the left is the one that saved me, the one on the right is too thick, it won't fit down in the space.
Had to use a flattened piece of pipe to get extra leverage though where it would fit.
https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/141231%20-%20Shim%20Shimeny%20Shim%20Shim%20Sharoo/20150101_165432resized_zps83be3594.jpg

As far as I can see, the only way to get at these is a hex socket.
But this is what the 10Nm bolts did to my 18 year old 10mm socket!
If I had to guess, I think the bolts were at least 20Nm, thinking back to the force I used on 32Nm brake Calipers as a reference.
https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/141231%20-%20Shim%20Shimeny%20Shim%20Shim%20Sharoo/20150101_165212resized_zpsc21ed04e.jpg

Was it just a poor quality tool? Have I used the wrong tool for the job? Can anyone tell me what I should have used please?
I did try other sockets for fit just in case, but none I had were close. Except maybe the 12/32.

I think I'm off to Halfords in the morning to buy one of their Chrome Vandium 10mm sockets.

My wrench is 3/8, I was having to use the 3/8 to 1/4 adaptor, but this also gave the height needed to get over the housings.

Would I do better with a taller socket that is straight 3/8 with no need for adaptor?

Thanks for your advice!

[gavcarter]

For places like that I prefer a long reach socket, no adpators, and give the ratchet a good shake to be sure the socket wont fall off.
I once wanted to quickly do my valve clearances which where tappets.

I used a flat bladed screwdriver bit in the socket set becuase I couldnt fit a normal screwdriver in and the bit fell out.

Not having a removable sump meant splitting both cases to retrieve the bit.

Wasnt a happy man.....

[Pigeon]

[Sload]

Are you sure of the condition of the socket prior to trying it with the bolts?

If you are positive of the size, I would consider purchasing a couple of new hex sockets of your preferred adaptor size and try again, ensure you are seated well and the fit isnt too loose and try again.
____________________
Honda Varadero >> Triumph Speed Four >> Honda CBR1100xx

[Aff]

Invest in a decent set of wall drive sockets.
____________________
Current Bikes:Honda 929RR Fireblade, Honda CD200 Benly (Project), Stomp Z2 140
Electric Bike Project

[Ariel Badger]

I always thought that there was a reason for the Halfords sockets being cheap, now I know what it is.
____________________
Bikers make great organ donors, get 115 on your licence today.

[sickpup]

[barrkel]

[sickpup]

[stinkwheel]

For tight spots, I've been using a 1/4" drive Draper Expert socket set for years. It has taken anything I've thrown at it. Even comes with a diddy little breaker bar (which I will admit to having put a significant length of pipe over). It has a good selection of extension bars meaning it can be used to reach almost totally inaccessable places (including the rear exhaust manifold studs of a VFR750). Only thing I'd want to add to it are a couple of wobble bars.

Being 1/4" drive, the walls of the socket are pretty thin, perfect for nippy little recessed nuts and bolts.

I can't recommend them highly enough.

This set here.

NB. This is a draper EXPERT set, not a straight Draper. There is a world of diference.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Sload]

Looks like a nice little set, I still love my halfords one though https://www.halfords.com/motoring/garage-equipment/socket-sets/halfords-advanced-professional-36-piece-socket-set-1-4
____________________
Honda Varadero >> Triumph Speed Four >> Honda CBR1100xx

[mysterious_rider]

Bluepoint or snapon for work. Halfords for home. ... prefer my work stuff.
____________________
KAWASAKIIIII

[bradh511]

The other problem with halford sockets is the multi spline sockets are not as good a 6 sideds well hex style sockets in my exepince alouth where it depnences on acess of the job but nine time out of ten hex sockets are best as they get a better grasp on bolts made of cheese
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Theory 11-10-12 lets hope i get mod 1 and 2 done by the 18th of jan 2013

[stevo as b4]

Halfords Pro tools and Draper Expert have both served me well, and had no quality issues.

I always keep a cheap socket set and set of screwdrivers for anything that I wouldn't want to bugger up good tools trying to remove.

And all those that say buy one good tool every month for X years, instead of a 200piece set for the same price really do have a point too!

[Pigeon]

The socket set I used was one a bought when I was 16 for my TS50X. It came from Halfords and was six sided hex on the smaller sizes (sub 12mm) and multi-toothed on the larger sizes.

Went to Halfords today, purchase a deep as well as standard 10mm socket (Halfords Pro). Doesn't have six sides, has loads of teeth.

What a difference having the right tool made Instead of hours of swearing, all the bolts came out in minutes.

I was staring into the abyss yesterday and can't believe all the bolts came off. Very happy.......but it didn't last.

I had TDC on the front cylinder (F in the inspection and lobes pointing up+away from each other with all the correct markings on the sprockets.
Got the shims out the front, no drama's. I started to believe we might pull this off! What is the saying, pride before a fall.

https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/141231%20-%20Shim%20Shimeny%20Shim%20Shim%20Sharoo/20141228_23383401_zps970a2224.jpg


Had to rotate the crank anti-clockwise until the F came round again, so the rear would be 90deg ATDC.
https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/141231%20-%20Shim%20Shimeny%20Shim%20Shim%20Sharoo/20141228_23394301_zps1a58754d.jpg

But because the CCT's were off, as were the front cyclinder camshafts, I had to put tension on the front cam chain. Trouble is, my wrench (from the 1996 cheap set) is stubby. Consequently not a lot of leverage and I struggled to get the fine movements required with just one hand.
So I tried wedging the chain out with a spanner, then go back to rotating with two hands. But I think I'd missed the mark. Shortly after and it locked up. I could not rotate anymore.

I assumed that the front chain did not have enough tension and had jammed. Spent ages wiggling it and carefully poking it. No joy.
I even borrowed my dads inspection camera to try and look down and see where it was stuck. But it didn't help.

I admit, I yet again panicked and did the only thing I could think to do, which was rotate the crank clockwise instead of anti-clockwise and try and back the chain out of its sticking point. I turned it about 1/4 of a rotation. It did not work.

Then I spotted the rear cylinder (which still had it's chain guard and cam housings in place) had the chain somehow jammed against the casing. It wasn't the front cylinder at all.
The rear had it's CCT off, and I had cracked the bolts, but I did not think the rear would have jumped off like that. Maybe the chain has stretched. Or maybe I should not have cracked the bolts until I needed to actually remove stuff.

So I took the rear cylinder apart. Definitely not at 90deg ATDC. And now I've turned the crank clockwise with the front cylinder missing it's camshafts.

In short, how f***** am I? Will the F on the flywheel no longer be relevant? How can I correct this? Is it a case of putting a stick down the front spark plug hole (another BCF trick ) and getting TDC, then rotating the flywheel clockwise until F to get it re-aligned? Or am I talking crap, will F always line up, regardless of how I rotated the engine.

I think I'm fairly happy about getting the camshafts on and positioned correctly re the markings on the flywheel and camshafts + sprockets. My concern now is have I created another problem?

Can I crack on and measure these + order replacements? Or do I now have bigger problems?
https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/141231%20-%20Shim%20Shimeny%20Shim%20Shim%20Sharoo/20150102_180919resized_zps1b7b9005.jpg

If we make it out of this alive, I will start saving for some better tools.
Next time, I'll leave the camshafts in place when rotating the engine, has to be better than me trying to pull the chains.

Judging by the different coloured bolts on the front camshaft housing, I might not have been the only one to have rounded a few heads on this bike.
https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/141231%20-%20Shim%20Shimeny%20Shim%20Shim%20Sharoo/20150102_175021resized_zps057812b6.jpg


https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/141231%20-%20Shim%20Shimeny%20Shim%20Shim%20Sharoo/20150102_172858resized_zpsbf2d0015.jpg


Apologies for the waffle, tried to include the detail as wasn't sure what was relevant. Thanks again for the help, definitely owe a few beers now

[Supermoto_Fan]

Respect you for taking this on and trying yourself but my god it will be a nail biting moment when you put it back together and start it
____________________
Yamaha MT-09 - Triple powerrrr

[mysterious_rider]

If you turn the engine over by hand each time, dont forget something like 2 revolutions on the crank means one revolution on the cams. So you need to turn the crank over twice with a ratchet, to get the cams to turn once.

Do this a few times when its all ready to be fired up, and if something is going to hit, you will feel it lock up and not damage anything, meaning you can do this till you get it right.



I remember doing the zzr ones at a friends, chain tensioner had to come fully out before anything would start to move. I just made sure I took pics and kept the flywheel on its marking, remembered what piston was in what position (screwdriver showing me what ones on TDC etc.
____________________
KAWASAKIIIII

[gavcarter]

okay dokey.

First questions is are you done taking measurements?

[Pigeon]

[gavcarter]

[gavcarter]

Oh wait, you not measured clearances? yet?

Retreive cam-chain and tie it to something with string

Remove BOTH CAMS

put flywheel tdc as SPECIFIED IN MANUAL, this is usually, 1st cylinder TDC - yes you can use chopsticks, screwdrivers etc in plug holes to find it.

Refit camshafts as said in manual, lobes facing the way manul said, torque down etc.

bring chain back up and fit sprokets in correct alignment

put chain on sprockets, refit CCT.

turn over BY HAND at least 2 FULL revolutions at the crank, do not force, should be easy with plugs removed.

Check alignment again

TAKE ALL MEASURMENTS AT THIS POINT

order shims

Remove both camshafts

fit new shims

Now do what i said the first time as I thought you had already measured up....

[Pigeon]

Cheers Gav, did have the clearances from the start of the week. Seems a long time ago now

Huston, we have numbers! I got a little carried away and ordered the shims too, so hopefully my maths is ok. £2.40 a pop for Hot Cams (apparently). Something so cheap can cause so much pain and possible expense

Just to decipher, using the last line as an example
RER 0.17 172 1.7 1.73
Rear Cylinder Exhaust Cam right-side valve, Clearance 0.17mm, shim stamped 172, shim measured with Vernier 1.7, shim measured with micrometer 1.73

I was thinking of aiming for 3/4 up the loose side.

Intake = 0.10 to 0.20, I'd be aiming for 0.17 clearance.
Exhaust = 0.20 to 0.30, I'd be aiming for 0.27 clearance.

RER has 0.17 clearance and a shim of 173, so 165 shim should give me around 0.25. Not quite my ideal 0.27, but 160 would put me bang on the upper limit clearance of 0.30?
But given I don't want to touch this for another 15,000 miles and it shortened up 0.02 in just 1,000 miles from 0.19 to 0.17, maybe I should go for the upper limit.
Strange it moved so much given the engine has done 42,000 miles.

On the plus side, looks like I can re-use the 173 shim in RIR to give me 0.17 clearance. Spot on....if my maths is ok.


https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/141231%20-%20Shim%20Shimeny%20Shim%20Shim%20Sharoo/20150103_153823resized_zps5616e769.jpg

https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/141231%20-%20Shim%20Shimeny%20Shim%20Shim%20Sharoo/20150103_165947resized_zps9afa59cb.jpg

https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/141231%20-%20Shim%20Shimeny%20Shim%20Shim%20Sharoo/20150103_170000resized_zpsb291fad8.jpg

The only two shims which didn't exactly match their stamped size (according to micrometer) were on the rear exhaust and were the only two shims of a different brand to the rest.

[serlant]

on the vtr1000 there is a mark for front tdc and rear tdc, I set the front first to tdc, then set the cams, then spin it 360 degrees and set the rear, the 360 was important as if you only did 180 the marks still lined up but the timing would be wrong.
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04 CBR1000RR, 1995 Husqvarna TE410, 1998 VTR1000(Sold), 1990 XJ600(sold), 1996 KH125(dead and sold)

[Pigeon]

[serlant]

99.9% spring that closes the valves so yes you can rotate the engine to you're hearts content with all 4 cams removed.

how does the manual state to do it?
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04 CBR1000RR, 1995 Husqvarna TE410, 1998 VTR1000(Sold), 1990 XJ600(sold), 1996 KH125(dead and sold)