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One hell of a dash cam vid...

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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 15:34 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: One hell of a dash cam vid... Reply with quote
Plane crash in Taiwan. Half current affairs, half FOTN... Random banter it is...

https://rt.com/news/229099-taiwan-plane-crash-landing-river/

The top video is immense, hits the car on the way down destroys the railing.

Early indications are engine failure and quick thinking by the pilot.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:42 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
They're fairly raining out of the skies at the moment. Mothra?
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RedPanda
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
"I know the pilot, Sum Ting Wong."
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Northern Monkey
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PostPosted: 18:33 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Re: One hell of a dash cam vid... Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:

Early indications are engine failure and quick thinking by the pilot.


Erm, no quick thinking from the pilot there. Badly handled engine failure leading to a low speed spin and crash. It's a classic nooby way to make an engine failure go from a minor incident to a massive disaster.
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kernow24
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Re: One hell of a dash cam vid... Reply with quote
Alans Snackbar wrote:
daemonoid wrote:

Early indications are engine failure and quick thinking by the pilot.


Erm, no quick thinking from the pilot there. Badly handled engine failure leading to a low speed spin and crash. It's a classic nooby way to make an engine failure go from a minor incident to a massive disaster.


It's great to know you was in the cockpit and survived the crash, thanks for updating the BCF community about your colleagues stupidity.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 21:11 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Monkey might be a pilot himself, so he knows this stuff, just like when you play the ''target fixation'' card whenever someone goes straight in a corner? Thinking
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andys675
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PostPosted: 22:35 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
looks shopped
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:49 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not photoshopped, it's been all over the news.

I don't know how anyone could say whether or not that was pilot error going by that little bit of video. Apparently the last radio call was something like "Mayday, engine on fire". So you have that and the video.

It's a good job accident investigators are somewhat more thorough than watching a few seconds of video footage. However, having said that, the majority of aircraft accidents are put down to pilot error after examination, certainly RAF ones anyway. Sometimes it causes a bit of a fuss, like when that Chinook full of top brass went into a mountain in fog.
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Northern Monkey
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PostPosted: 23:00 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
Monkey might be a pilot himself, so he knows this stuff, just like when you play the ''target fixation'' card whenever someone goes straight in a corner? Thinking


Monkey used to be a flying instructor, and did a little bit of competition aerobatics flying.

I spent many hours at altitude demonstrating exactly the manoeuvre shown in that video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxuLCoPxXuo
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weasley
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PostPosted: 23:07 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
[caveat] I'm no crash investigator nor professional pilot but I have flown a few hours in light aircraft and I has a keyboard in front of me[/caveat]

The first few frames of the video seem to show it roughly wings-level but dropping like a stone - looks stalled to me. I'm frankly amazed anybody got out alive.
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Northern Monkey
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PostPosted: 23:11 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
weasley wrote:
[caveat] I'm no crash investigator nor professional pilot but I have flown a few hours in light aircraft and I has a keyboard in front of me[/caveat]

The first few frames of the video seem to show it roughly wings-level but dropping like a stone - looks stalled to me. I'm frankly amazed anybody got out alive.


A spin is, at it's simplest, a stall of one wing, when the other is still flying. This causes a very rapid roll towards the stalled wing, and simultaneous loss of altitude.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:14 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alans Snackbar wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
Monkey might be a pilot himself, so he knows this stuff, just like when you play the ''target fixation'' card whenever someone goes straight in a corner? Thinking


Monkey used to be a flying instructor, and did a little bit of competition aerobatics flying.

I spent many hours at altitude demonstrating exactly the manoeuvre shown in that video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxuLCoPxXuo


1. Would not the recovery time be longer for a larger aircraft than shown in your example NM?

2. Do you really feel that you can conclusively say that this was pure pilot error, recoverable under any circumstances?

Genuine questions from interest.
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Phoenix
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PostPosted: 23:30 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alans Snackbar wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
Monkey might be a pilot himself, so he knows this stuff, just like when you play the ''target fixation'' card whenever someone goes straight in a corner? Thinking


Monkey used to be a flying instructor, and did a little bit of competition aerobatics flying.

I spent many hours at altitude demonstrating exactly the manoeuvre shown in that video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxuLCoPxXuo


While to the average BCFer so much as a whiff of piloting history is better than most people's here experience, in the grand scheme of things on a national, not to mention global scale you're experience is extremely insignificant so I think i'll pass on accepting your expert analysis of a 3 second video clip of a type of plane that by the sounds of things you've never flown crashing during an accident rather than an aerobatic maneouver "at altitude", something he quite clearly didn't have immediately after taking off.

Last edited by Phoenix on 23:31 - 04 Feb 2015; edited 1 time in total
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Northern Monkey
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PostPosted: 23:30 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:


1. Would not the recovery time be longer for a larger aircraft than shown in your example NM?

2. Do you really feel that you can conclusively say that this was pure pilot error, recoverable under any circumstances?

Genuine questions from interest.


4 seconds of video isn't a huge amount of info, but I'm 99% sure that the rapid roll to the left was the initial stages of a spin

1. It's needs a lot more height for a larger aircraft to recover, because it needs to regain more speed,

2. It could have been made less bad. Landing the aircraft on its belly, instead of wing tip first would mean most people would have walked away. Could the pilot have achieved this, I don't know, depends on how he ended up going so slow in the first place

There are a number of things that could have caused the low speed, leading to the spin. Some of which may be out of the pilots control, such as luggage being insecure and moving backwards. This is happened before on a freight flight, out of (I think) Germany.

There have also been incidents of controls being wired up wrong following maintenance, which have lead to the wrong inputs going to the control surfaces.

Also incidents, of the wrong engine being shut down, both due to pilot error, and wiring/aircraft errors.
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Northern Monkey
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PostPosted: 23:40 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://airnation.net/2013/05/04/cargo-shift-crash-747/

This crash of a 747 a couple of years ago was similar, at 27 seconds in, the aircraft is at a similar attitude to the one in the first video.

The aircraft flew too slow, stall/span, and dropped.

Edit. A few more Cargo moving leading to stall after takeoff incidents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_Air#Flight_101

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_6316
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Northern Monkey
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PostPosted: 23:46 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Phoenix wrote:

While to the average BCFer so much as a whiff of piloting history is better than most people's here experience, in the grand scheme of things on a national, not to mention global scale you're experience is extremely insignificant so I think i'll pass on accepting your expert analysis of a 3 second video clip of a type of plane that by the sounds of things you've never flown crashing during an accident rather than an aerobatic maneouver "at altitude", something he quite clearly didn't have immediately after taking off.


I've never ridden a GP bike, but I know what a high side looks like when I watch the MotoGP
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 23:50 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Would it change your mind, given that after the rapid roll to the left, the plane hit a river rather than densely populated city?

Supposedly it made a max height of under 1400'
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Northern Monkey
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PostPosted: 23:52 - 04 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
Would it change your mind, given that after the rapid roll to the left, the plane hit a river rather than densely populated city?

Supposedly it made a max height of under 1400'


At the point of the stall, the aircraft is mostly out of control. That large roll to the left, was (and this is a big probably, as its a crappy video) an uncommand roll
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 00:20 - 05 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alans Snackbar wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
Monkey might be a pilot himself, so he knows this stuff, just like when you play the ''target fixation'' card whenever someone goes straight in a corner? Thinking


Monkey used to be a flying instructor, and did a little bit of competition aerobatics flying.

I spent many hours at altitude demonstrating exactly the manoeuvre shown in that video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxuLCoPxXuo


See, Mr. kernow24? Smile
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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 01:40 - 05 Feb 2015    Post subject: Re: One hell of a dash cam vid... Reply with quote
Alans Snackbar wrote:
daemonoid wrote:

Early indications are engine failure and quick thinking by the pilot.


Erm, no quick thinking from the pilot there. Badly handled engine failure leading to a low speed spin and crash. It's a classic nooby way to make an engine failure go from a minor incident to a massive disaster.



Don't wanna throw fuel on the fire of speculation, but it definitely wasn't a well-handled engine failure.

I'm not saying it was a badly-handled engine failure, or that it wasn't, I don't know yet what has happened.

All I can say is that is not how to handle an engine failure.

From the brief video footage, it looks like there was asymmetric thrust, i.e. one engine producing more thrust than the other, creating a yawing and rolling situation, and possibly the aircraft below VMCA
(minimum control speed in the air with one engine out) so not enough airflow over the control surfaces (i.e. wings and tail) to maintain or regain full control
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weasley
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PostPosted: 08:34 - 05 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
What the video shows is the last few moments of something that had already happened. Control is already lost and we're seeing what momentum and aerodynamics do to a falling object. We don't see the cause nor immediate effects. It's like the camera cutting to a bike sliding through the gravel and then stating how the crash started.
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dydey90
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PostPosted: 09:05 - 05 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
So what's the professional opinions on the landing? Went down in the river and some people survived, rather than ploughing into a high street and taking out hundreds of kittens. Was this purely coincidence or was the pilot making a gallant attempt at recreating the Hudson river landing, but spooned it and lost too much speed?
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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 11:23 - 05 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
dydey90 wrote:
So what's the professional opinions on the landing? Went down in the river and some people survived, rather than ploughing into a high street and taking out hundreds of kittens. Was this purely coincidence or was the pilot making a gallant attempt at recreating the Hudson river landing, but spooned it and lost too much speed?


Need more info than the video that is available.

Fortunately with the aircraft relatively intact they should be able to get the FDR and CVR analysed pretty quickly. And a number of survivors that can be interviewed too.

Although that doesn't necessarily make it an simple open and shut investigation.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 11:42 - 05 Feb 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Did no one notice that a segment of the left hand horizontal stabiliser was missing?

Pilot error, lol.
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