THE final superdream thread

[salem1987]

Ive posted way too many threads on this bloody superdream. (CB125TDE) and this is my final one i promise.
So here goes..

I know its probably going to be detrimental to the performance slightly but has anyone fitted a 2 into 1 manifold off one of the benley/360 degree crank motors with success?

Im not bothered about breaking land speed records on this thing, but i do want it to be reliable. The two ancient carbs and rubbers are on their last legs and the bike is just a nightmare to set up.

[Jewlio Iglesias]

Inb4Tef.
____________________
21:41:40 petalbriefs: look phil, I dont preach to you about bowling pins or whatever, so you stick to that and I'll stick to cars
21:38:18 Northern Monkey: chav lives in the garage with an almax on it
21:34:54 rhys99: My train got stuck in heavy traffic

[lihp]

Anyway, the very FIRST thing you need to know is that the Honda CB125 Super Dream is a 'Classic', a very useful one, too, and it has an awful lot going for it, that can make it a very discerning choice of bike. BUT, if you just want cheap wheels, or a tool to pass your test on, your probably best to look elsewhere. You need to have a bit of 'enthusiasm' to actually WANT a CB125 Super Dream, and if your going to live with it, you ought to have a good idea of what they are, what their history is, and what makes them worth owning.

Already written an article, Learner Legals & Honda Super-Dreams, to explain why this little 'under-dog' of a bike is a bit 'special' and worthy of attention. But in short, it was in 1982 Hondas premier 'sports' 125 for the new 125 Learner-Legal market. A four-stroke twin cylinder machine, intended to compete head to head on performance against rivals single cylinder two-strokes, when Honda were still ardently committed to the four-stroke engine and campaigning the oval-piston wonders against the two-strokes in 500GP racing.

The legal 12.5bhp 'restriction' helped, the Super-Dream but it still had to be 'de-tuned' from the earlier models 16bhp to meet it, the same as the all new Kawasaki AR125LC and Yamaha RD125LC, and boasted as many technically avant-garde features, so it DID have the performance to match its two-stroke rivals, at least when they were standard and genuinely learner-legal.

Nearly thirty years on, its conservative styling and four-stroke engine mean the bikes now perceived simply as a slightly more sophisticated 'commuter' like The Legendary Honda CG125 that's the bench mark for the class. Testimony to the soundness of the bikes design and engineering, though, it was in production for approximately ten years until 1992, without significant change.

There are few AR's or RD's around any more, most thrashed to death by a succession of kiddie-go-quickly owners and their attempts at servicing and tuning (see 125's - Live Hard), and the few that have survived tend to be either basket cases offered for restoration, or over-priced teenage revival trophies. Its testimony then that the little Super-Dream not only outlived its rivals in the show-room, but also on the streets, where so many are still in use, and as often as every-day working commuter bikes.

As a potential buyer, this does bode well. There should be plenty to choose from, to be able to find a better one. And as I have alluded to elsewhere, this is an 'under-dog' motorcycle, which means generally undervalued, hinting that there should be bargains to be found... or at least better bikes for more realistic prices, as the bike has past the 'test of time' and shown itself basically sound and reliable and well proven.

BUT! It IS still an 'old' bike, and the youngest of them out there will be at least nineteen or twenty years old, with the majority being built between 1982 and 1986, quarter of a century, pushing thirty years. AND while its conservative styling and four-stroke engine have placed it in with the commuter bikes, its 12,000rpm red line certainly does NOT! This IS a 'sports-bike', and it was far more avant-garde when launched than Honda's current 'premier' CBR125, which in many ways is actually a lot more conservative.

Worth noting that many of the features of the modern CBR125 are actually no more 'advanced' than the 125 Super-Dream, particularly the important bits, front and rear suspension, brakes, and tyre sizes.

And while it may boast a water-cooled and fuel injected engine, that is significantly to meet modern emission requirements, not for reliability or performance, and it's rated power out-put is within a gnats, the same as the 'ancient' Super-Dream twin.

Meanwhile, the fashionable beam-style frame and sporty faired styling, offer little functional value to the motorcycle. That frame is designed for least manufacturing cost, not ultimate structural stiffness!

While the aerodynamics of the bodywork offer little practical stream-lining to help the bike go faster! And the small weather protection they might offer has to be balanced by the vulnerability, if the bike gets knocked off the side stand!

Compared to the 'Bench-Mark' Honda CG125, the little Super-Dream is in a completely different league. The CG might have gained electric start and disc-brake in its long and illustrious production history, but it was always a 10bhp 'budget' commuter, built down to a price, most in Brazil. Which is another plus point in the Little Super-Dreams favour, as a premier model, it was always built in Japan. It even says so on the generator cover. Which is a boast I'm not sure even the CBR can make, and even if it can, an awful lot of the 'bits' that have gone into building it will have come from Taiwan or China!

So, the Honda CB125 'Super-Dream' is a well proven, enduring little 'sports-bike' that has stood the test of time against its contemporary rivals, and STILL bears favourable comparison against modern offerings. And it can be viewed as many things, depending on your perspective.

It may merely be perceived as a slightly more sophisticated commuter, an alternative to the CG125. Providing the creature comforts of an electric start and disc brake, only found on the later models, a little more performance, comfort and 'substance' for want of a better way to describe the better finish and feel, without simply saying 'heavy'! (It weighs 125Kg, exactly the same as a CBR125 or YBR125, and a mere 9Kg, more than the CG! That's roughly the difference between a full tank of petrol and being on reserve, yet some people still insist THAT is a big deal! Usually older ones that remember it being a little heavier than an RD or AR)

Or it can be viewed as as a traditionally styled and budget-priced 'sports' Learner bike, a cheap alternative to the CBR125, or as likely the Chinese or Korean copies. But it SHOULD be perceived as a 'classic', and a very useful and practical one, that can still earn its keep as an every day bike, against the teen-age revival bikes, like the RD-LC or AR125 and such.

Its worth mention that a lot of owners reports of the Honda CBR suggest that its no where near as exiting as its avant-garde styling suggest it should be, and its actually a rather uninspiring ride, a commuter in sports bike cloths. The 'old' Super-Dream could probably stand the opposite allegation. Its a proper sports-bike in commuter cloths!

Ranking the bike against alternatives; nearly every-one I have ever met that has owned or ridden one, has said positive things about it, and they have nearly always been happily surprised by it. The main thing that people will tell you about them is that they were a lot of fun, and surprisingly fast, and comment on the unexpected wail of a little four-stroke screaming its way up to the 12,000 RPM red-line, yet not blowing up or demanding frequent rebuilds like the two-strokes, and starting on the button first of second prod, no matter what, and just 'working'.

A few people have criticises the bikes performance and handling, and I have been dogged by people suffering niggles and hassles, asking advice over worn bores and dodgy electrics, but for the most part, these can be explained by the old age and state of neglect or disrepair of the bikes in question. Good ones are pretty damn good, but its still a learner-legal 125, and an old one likely to have suffered a lot of abuse and neglect in the hands of a succession of newbie riders, and there are plenty of not so good ones out there! I know, all mine started out that way!
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covent.gardens: lihp is my most favourite member ever

[temeluchus]

I thought that the 'Rebel' was the CM, but obviously one of the MANY Honda 'revisions/Variants' in engine ingredients and model ident convention. CM was the original twin-shock 'factory-custom'/cruiser version of the CB125T, fore-runner of the Rebel.

Anyway, the 'little twin' engine has been around since 1977, and they all look very similar from the out-side, and the same basic crank-case castings have been used in many, many models.

UK CB125TD 'Super-Dreams' only ever had 12.5 BHP, the model was predominantly designed specifically for the UK market, when the 125 Learner Laws were introduced, presuming it would sell in the volumes that the 250 had.

Earlier 'T' model had a claimed 16 or 17bhp depending on whose numbers you take, and as those would be crank-shaft figures, and the modern Learner-Laws quite 15bhp 'Net', so rear wheel bhp, it probably just falls inside modern Learner power limits.

I have seen some sources note the UK Spec Super-Dream variant as the 'reduced effect' model, and claim more from the 'standard' version, but I cannot find anything to say what the differences are. I can only presume that it was essentially the same ‘tune’ as the earlier T motor with 12v generator instead of 6v and CDI ignition rather than points, and different manifolding and carbs to either to fit the Super-Dream chassis.

Between UK Super-Dream & T, as far as I have been able to find out, the valve sizes were the same and the cam timing is ‘probably’ the same, though I haven't found any data detailed enough to tell me if the 'T' cam had any more lift.

That MAY be one area in which the different levels of tune were established.

Anyway, the original 'Factory-Custom’ or Cruiser was the CM model and got the 360 crank engine where the CB 'sport' and CD Benley 'touring' got the 180 cranks, but I think (Snowies moved the book, so I cant check! And I’ll probably never get to see it again!!) Both CM and CD got the 4-speeed box rather than the 5.

I don’t know whether the later Rebel CA cruiser, as you suggest it got the 5 speed box of the CB also got the 180 crank, or whether it kept the 360 arrangement of the earlier CM.

If it kept the 360 crank, then that would dismiss the possibility of using a standard CB camshaft. You’d have to get a custom cut from blank, or ground on a built up stocker, or the timing would be out on one or other pot.

On the carburettor front; The CM got a single and curious variable venture carb. I don’t know if ALL of them got it, or if it was carried over to the Rebel. CD ‘Benley’ got a single CV carb at some point, and some models got single slide carbs.

Snowie had a Chinese made AJS Raptor 125, which I think was pretty much a Rebel Clone, with licence made Honda Twin motor, that had 5 speed box and single slide carb.

There have been slight variations in head, rocker cover and barel castings over the years, and I’m pretty sure that the T model had ports that were slightly splayed outwards so that the carb mouths cleared the spine frame. If not, then the manifolds certainly splay a lot more than the Super-Dream’s. That has the carbs ‘tucked’ in quite close, to fit between splayed frame rails and brace bars to accommodate the mono-shock linkage.

The CD Benley, CM ‘custom’ and Rebel are all twin-shock bikes, with a single carb. I know for definite that the single carb and manifold from a benly will fit on a S-D engine, but it puts the carb mouth right up against the mono-shock support bracket with no room for an air filter.

Similarly, the splayed carbs from a ‘T’, fitted to a Super-Dream, put the carb-mouths up against the frame rails. (Clearance there is tight enough as standard…. If the carbs twisted slightly on the stub, the frame rail stops the choke lever opening fully… as I discovered this afternoon!) They also won’t line up with the standard air-boxes which also form the battery compartment.

Fitting twin-carbs to a single carb bike, then is likely to have any number of niggles in locating them within the frame.

There’s also a number of other installation issues in mix & match bits, such as the shape of the rocker box cover or the starter motor on the front of e-start variants, concerning clearance about the front down tube, which may be an issue, when it comes to messing with the ignition.

Back to the ‘T’ that had square rocker cover. Later Super-Dream had a scallop between the cylinders to clear the down tube. But it was also kick-start, and had 6v generator and points ignition. Super-Dream had 12v generator and CDI ignition, and lost the Kick-starter, meaning that cases both sides were different.

But main thing is that the E-start on the Super-Dream was incorporated by fitting an adaptor plate to the side of the crank-case, and incorporating a free-wheel sprocket for the chain drive to the starter-motor, inboard of the alternator rotor.

That would suggest that to use the T’s bob-weight advanced ignition, you’d have to fit the T’s 6v generator and back-plate, and probably loose the e-start mechanism, demanding swapping the primary drive side casing over and incorporating the T’s kick start, and potential problems surrounding that.

Probably more easily do-able would be to try and source non-uk spec CDi units for the Super-Dream, or alternatively mapped or programmable after market units.

For what you are considering, its not unreasonable, BUT the Honda 125 Twin in all its guises, apart from the most powerful T-Variant, and possibly the ‘full effect’ foreign market Super-Dream, were not ‘restricted’ to the power they have, they were designed down to it.

Finding the horse power those variants weren;t tuned to have is not like de-restricting a Yam DT or ‘prillia RS, and swapping a black box and maybe a carburettor, or just a jet or two, it’s a full on four-stroke tuning exercise.

Yes, might be one that might benefit from some parts from other models, but in some areas, but apart from figuring out which ones would be useful, and finding them, there’s still installation problems, as mentioned a lot of the de-tuning features were as often a by-product of re-packaging the engine in a different model, as actually looking for a way to make it make less power.

Its one of the reasons that the CB125 ‘Super-Dream’ didn’t sell in the numbers that Honda had anticipated based on the popularity of the 250. The post ’83 learner market was a lot different, and with the limited performance of a 125 buyers wanted as much performance as they could get, preferably more, and ARs and RDs, though no faster out the show-room than the Super-Dream, could much more easily be convinced to go that bit quicker, with a little simple tinkering. Most that tried tinkering with the Super-Dream motor ended up with a pile of parts from different engines that simply couldn’t be married together and made to fit in the hole it had to go in!

Picking up on andys350’s comments; Honda CB125, CB200 and the CB ‘Two-fifty’, CD 125, CD175, CD200 ‘Benley’, CM125 & CMX 250 & possible other capacity factory-custom/cruiser variants, of intermediate capacities, and the Rebel, all share a common engine topography based on the crank cases, BUT with an awful lot of internal and external differences around them.

The 125 & 200 capacities share the same crank stroke, but with different bores, I think that the 175 has the 125 bore and a longer stroke, the 233 ‘250’ variants the 175’s stroke and 200 bore. (Note: the CB ‘Two-Fifty’ Super-Dream has the ‘little-twin’ engine, where the older CB250N is a different engine family, having a sleeved down CB400 lump, and commonality with the CB350 & CB450 and I think the CB500Twin)

So yes, to fairly large degree, the engines are part of the same family, and share a degree of interchangeability, but there ARE an awful lot of permutations and incompatible combinations.

And to be honest, for the couple of bhp even a successful tuning project might release, it probably isn’t worth the hassle, as the previous owner concluded, far easier to simply buy a faster bike.

And on that notion, I have to suggest that Snowie got her Cruiser-Thing for much the same reasons as your Lady-Friend; it was cheap, learner-legal and it had a low seat heght.

But, she found it dog slow; 55ish tops, and despite the low seat, it really wasn’t all that manageable, the laid back cruiser geometry and lazy steering making it more cumbersome to manoeuvre, particularly slow speed stuff like test training, and thoroughly uninspiring everywhere else, particularly the twisty roads taken to avoid main roads and duel carriageways and being a rolling road block pushed into the gutter by artics!

And the riposte to the advantage of the low seat height is a long stretch to wide bars, which if you are of smaller proportions, makes the low seat attractive, means your little arms are at full stretch just reaching the controls, and as we took a long time to fathom with Snowie, can mean that the steering input needed to make a cruiser turn, actually demands leaning contrary to the way you want to make the bike go round the corner, making the manoeuvrability, balance and handling even worse.

We made it better for her by lowering the bars and fitting even lower narrower ones, then putting the controls an inch inboard on them to narrow them even further, and messing a bit with the gear and brake pedal positions, but it still wasn’t brilliant.

When it got stolen, we got her a 125 Super-Dream, and though its got a taller seat height, overall the bikes INFINITELY more manageable and manoeuvrable, as well as significantly faster. As would most ‘commuter’ 125’s be.

Bottom line, I looked at the Honda ‘Little Twin’ derived engine in the Cruiser Thing, with pretty much the same sort of notion you are having with the Rebel…. Ultimately I mucked about to make the bike work handling wise for her, but as far as making it any faster, I just told the girl to live with it, and if she wanted to go any faster, to pass her test and get a quicker bike! It just wasn’t worth the messing.

End of the day, a 125 is a tool to get your test, or a cheap way to get to work quicker & cheaper than the bus. 10bhp might not be hugely exiting, but it’ll do the job
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Some shite cruiser. Now with guns and FREEDOM!

[Jewlio Iglesias]

The Honda CB125 was a 122 cc (7.4 cu in) motorcycle made by Honda from 1971-1975 (1973-1985 in the US). It had an overhead camshaft (OHC) engine with a 9500 rpm redline. The "S" model was produced from 1971 to 1975 and was replaced in 1976 by the "J" model (the US bikes retained the S designation). The newer model sported a two piece head, 124 cc (7.6 cu in) displacement, and a larger carburettor, but it did not perform as well as the earlier models.[citation needed]
Major changes

Aside from different color schemes and minor lettering differences, these are some of the major design changes:

1973 - First year the bike was released in the US as CB125S0.
1974 - Front drum brake changed to disk, tachometer was added.
1976 - Engine displacement increased from 122 to 124 cc (7.4 to 7.6 cu in), tachometer was eliminated.
1979 - Front disk brake was changed back to drum.
1980 - Point ignition was changed to capacitive discharge.
1983 - The bike was not produced this year.
1984 - The electrical system was changed from 6 to 12 volts.
1985 - The last year the bike was released in the US, headlight shape was changed from round to rectangular.

Notes
____________________
21:41:40 petalbriefs: look phil, I dont preach to you about bowling pins or whatever, so you stick to that and I'll stick to cars
21:38:18 Northern Monkey: chav lives in the garage with an almax on it
21:34:54 rhys99: My train got stuck in heavy traffic

[lihp]

The CB125T, of 1977, was a derivative model of what is known as the 'Benley' family of little Hondas, based on a set of 'common' engine cases, though numerously different internal components.

The Honda 'Benley' was a 'touring' version of Honda's more sport CB 'Twins', normally distinguished by heavier styling, but always a single carburettor.

The earlier Benleys were based on the 'Dream' engine, nominally 175cc, but with different crankshaft and barrels, offered in various capacities from 125cc up to 250cc.

The CD185 of approximately 1975, though was an all new engine, distinguished by having the chain drive for the camshaft positioned between the two cylinders.

Originally with 6v electrical system, points ignition and kick starting, later models gained 12v Electrics, electric starting, and 'contactless' CDi ignition. These changes came with numerous detail revisions to the outer engine cases to accommodate the different equipment, and significantly the cylinder heads and barrels.

Early engines had the points mechanism on the end of the Cam Shaft in the head, and a cam cover with individual caps to adjust the tappets, while the barrel featured the cam chain adjuster mechanism on the front of the engine between the exhausts, where it was repositioned to the back of the barrel on later models, between the carburettors.

The most significant feature shared by the Earlier engines though was a 360 degree crank shaft, both pistons rising and falling at the same time, on different strokes. This allows the convenience of a 'single' trigger lost spark ignition system, the one trigger firing the spark plugs in both cylinders at the same time. The 'lost' spark being that as the piston in one cylinder is rising towards Top Dead Centre on the compression stroke ready to be ignited, the other piston, will be rising on the exhaust stroke, pushing spent gasses out of the exhaust valve. So, if both spark plugs are triggered together, then the cylinder on the compression stroke gets ignited, whilst the spark in the other cylinder merely sparks in already burned exhaust gasses, and is hence 'lost'.

The CB125T, however has a 180 Degree crankshaft. This means that when one piston is at the top of its stroke, the other is at the bottom. This is a significant and important difference, and the CB125 is the ONLY model in the family that has such an arrangement.

The reason for it, is that with both pistons rising and falling together, the engine is almost as 'lumpy' and prone to vibration as a single, which is an impediment to reliability at higher engine RPM. But the whole idea of making a 'little twin' was to make an engine that could make more power from turning higher engine speeds.

Hence the idea behind the 180 degree crankshaft was to give the engine better 'balance' so that it could turn to higher RPM more reliably.

To aid this, the CB models were equipped with twin carburettors, as opposed to the single carburettors fitted to 360 crank models, and a completely revised Ignition system, was needed to provide sparks at 180 degree intervals, individually to each cylinder, though still by the 'lost spark' principle.

The 'Twin Shock' CB125Twin, shared a lot of commonality with other 'small' Hondas of the era. Intended to superseded the CB125Single, as a 'sporty' 125 road bike, many components are common with the CG125 which also superseded the earlier single, and the CB100N Overhead Camshaft Single.

The Honda CM125 'Rebel' was also introduced at around the same time, sharing many parts with the CB125T, though actually using a derivative of the Benley's 360 crank engine, and single carburettor.



The 1982 CB125 'Super Dream', was a significant departure, and the ONE important feature of the bike is the monoshock rear suspension.

For this model, Honda started with an almost clean sheet of paper.

The engine is a 'Benley' derivative, but gained the Benleys electric starter, and 12v electrics, as well as CDi Ignition, while retaining the CB125T's 180 degree crankshaft and twin carburettors.

The UK market model is known as the 'Reduced Effect' variant, as it was positively de tuned from the CB125T's 17bhp to a Learner Legal compliant 12.5, for the UK market, mainly through the use of a softer camshaft profile, and revised carburettors.

Other market models made a claimed 17bhp, as the Earlier T model. But it is NOT easy to 'de restrict' a Super Dream, either with parts from the European variants, or an earlier T.

The camshaft from the T model, I believe doesn't directly fit into the Super Dream cylinder head, due to it having a drive on the end for the points ignition, that the Super Dream doesn't have. Meanwhile the t carburettors have a different body and mount awkwardly on the Super Dream carburettor stubs and wont line up with the original air boxes, demanding their removal. as these form the battery tray, this means an alternative way of locating or supporting the battery must also be found.

Full power cam shafts for other market models may still be obtained new, as may many carburettor parts. However, many parts are discontinued, so it would not be possible to modify a UK Super Dream to 'Full power' specification, entirely with new parts, and what parts are available, would make it an inordinately expensive exercise, for very little practical gain.

Significantly 'unique' to the Super Dream model, is the frame, with its sophisticated monoshock rear suspension; the front forks, and the twin piston brake caliper. Petrol tank and bodywork.

Interchangeability between The Super Dream and other derivatives in the Benley 'family' is limited. Though it is common for Super Dreams with seized engines to have replacements sourced from, most commonly the CM125, as it shares the CB125's five speed gearbox.

Projects, Fixer Uppers, and Ride Away Deals

Right, these are old bikes. You cant really walk into a show room, pick the colour you want, haggle finance terms and ride it away with a warranty. Really there are three ways to get one. Find one that's survived twenty years with so little use its in reasonably good condition still. Or find one that's a complete wreck and do a renovation on it yourself. Or find one that some one else has found as a derelict or a wreck and fixed up, and sells on when they have done.

First question, Do you want a 'Project' or do you JUST want a bike to ride?

'Fixer Uppers' tend to fit in the middle, as either an 'easy' project, or a rider you don't mind having to do a 'Bit' or work to. But the warning is, crap rolls down hill. A rider can easily become a 'Fixer Upper' very easily without much encouragement, and a fixer Upper can quickly become an full on 'Project'.

Economically, if you want a bike to ride, its often far cheaper to pay that bit more for a bike that's a ride away deal, than hope to snag a bargain for a 'little' work. That 'little' work more often proves to be a lot, and often expensive parts, soon erode any saving, as can buying a 'cheap' rider that soon becomes a 'fixer upper'.

As for Projects, well, very FEW projects are financially profitable. Starting with a Derelict motorcycle, in all likelihood, the reason its derelict is because of some problem that meant it was cheaper to buy another bike than to fix it. Price of old bikes rarely goes up significantly, unless they do become genuine collectors items, but even then, good working examples are often cheaper to buy than the cost of resurrecting a derelict, while 'concourse' machines, to get to the standard that actually stand them a chance of taking awards, normally costs far more then they would sell for.

I caution TIME and TIME again, the kiddology of so many taking on a project convincing themselves that all the time and effort and money spent is worth it, and the bike or Land Rover they MIGHT end up with, is worth every penny..... to THEM, maybe, if they see it that far, but the harsh reality is that on the open market to any one else, its rarely worth a fraction of the cost of the parts that have gone into it.

The ONLY way that a Project is in anyway economically realistic is IF you write off the costs as the price of your hobby, like building scale models to display on your mantelpiece, or playing golf or fishing, or something where you spend money to engage in a pursuit you enjoy.

Which means you have to enjoy the work. If you want a motorbike, and DON'T enjoy the challenge of frustrating and niggling little problems, and the hassles of finding bits, then you are on a fools errand, because you'll be wasting time that you could be spending doing something you actually like, or which is more useful or more profitable.

So taking on a Fixer Upper, that proves more demanding than anticipated, well? Have a look round the site, at my Project bikes. ALL of those were sold with the suggestion that they were 'easy fix' 'Fixer Uppers'.

Donna's 'Pup' was probably the classic example. That bike was sold on, with an add suggesting that it was a simple MOT failure needing no more than a pair of fork seals, included in the sale! to get it through its test and back on the road, being sold because the seller didn't have the time to do the work, and his wife, who was the bikes rider, had lost patience with him and bought a cruiser instead!

That bike, when I looked at the pictures, I could tell needed more than just fork seals. When I saw it in the metal, I started adding up the immediate works needed, which included new headrace bearings, and a suspension overhaul, at the very least.

Donna, accustomed to such 'wrecks' and having been lead to believe that they COULD be cheaply and easily fixed up, and got on the road with a 'friendly' MOT, honestly didn't think that it would take more than a bit of servicing and some paint to get that bike back on the road.

At time of writing, near enough the OTR price of a brand spanking new Honda CBF125 spent on parts alone, she has sort of realised that it doesn't work that way. She's also realised why so often the bikes she had didn't go very well, didn't handle very well, didn't inspire much confidence, or broke down so much!

But that was part of the exercise, one of the 'Project Objectives', for Donna to learn mechanics, and how bikes work, and to appreciate what's going on under her bum when she's riding. Getting a working motorcycle, more, one that inspired confidence and worked properly, that she could do her training and test on at the end, was a separate Project Objective.

If it was the ONLY project objective, It would have been a heck of a lot cheaper, and a darn site easier to have gone and bought her a two or three year old Yamaha YBR125, for about a thousand pounds, TWO FIFTHS of what this bike's cost! AND when she had got her licence, sold it on for probably within £100 of what we paid for it.

Please think long on that one. Doing a Project on a 125 'Learner Legal' so you have a bike to ride on a provisional licence and get your test, EVEN if you succeed, and turn a 'Fixer Upper' for a few hundred quid into a serviceable bike, which, when you have done with it, you can sell on for no more than you have spent.... well, buying a 'Rider' to begin with, for a little extra outlay up front, could have got you to exactly the same place.

Doing it via 'Fixer Upper', practically you are looking at bikes that will cost you in the region of £400 to buy. (see Ebay Advert Examples) Add just £50 for some bits and pieces, and £50 doesn't buy MANY, then add an MOT and some tax, and you'll have spent over the £500 that COULD have bought you a 'Ride Away' bike, that after three or four months use, and a concerted effort to get through your bike test, you could sell on, just as readily for pretty close to what you paid. RATHER than mucking about with bits of rusty metal and greasy castings, annoying mothers, wives, flat mates or who ever with the tide mark round the bath, and the mess in the back garden, to MAYBE get to the same place.

IF you have to have a fixer upper or project, makes FAR more sense to look for a 'big bike' to do. Every aspiring 'motorcyclist', looks at the costs of getting a bike, they add up the cost of the licence, CBT, crash helmet, gloves, water proofs, then the test fees, and perhaps the price of a rider training course, then looks at the prices of bikes again, and is HORRIFIED. SO start looking to see where they can make some economies. And as the biggest single expense, they consider the price of the bike the best place that they can save money.

They then start thinking, that as they AREN'T going to keep the bike very long, they don't want to spend any more money than they have to on it, and looking further and further down the market, until they get to the conclusion that rather than buy a 'clapped out wreck' with an MOT, they'll buy an MOT failure and 'do it up', in the naive belief that that HAS to be cheaper, and will give them a 'better' bike for less money.

Unfortunately, the numbers rarely add up. In the Ebay Advert examples I've offered here you'll see that 'Fixer Uppers' tend to fetch almost as much money as bikes that are ready to ride away. In some cases, incredibly they sometimes fetch more!

One of the bikes in the Example Ebay adverts was a very useful looking bike, that was taxed and tested and ready to ride, with a lot of work done as running repairs. It bid to a fraction under £500 and I'm sure some one had snagged themselves a nice little bargain. Another bike in the examples, sold the same day, a few hours later, as an 'unfinished project' with an AWFUL lot of niggles that needed sorting mentioned in the description, down played as 'easy fixes' that made me wince, for £360. Adding £30 for an MOT to that, and another £15 for tax, makes £420, making it 'On The Road', only £50 or so cheaper than the bike that sold as a 'Rider'. I very much doubt that any one would sort the problems on that bike for under £50. Realistically, by the old double the estimate and then double it again, rule, £200 is more likely, and from what I know about these bikes, that's actually likely, and that it STILL wouldn't be a great well sorted bike.

Seriously, SO many people have the quaint idea that fixing up an old bike would be a 'fun' thing to do, or a cheap way to get themselves on the road, more people actually go looking for bikes to 'fix up' than there are wrecks for them to fix! And incredibly MANY of them will actually NOT buy road worthy and ride away ready bikes, because such a machine doesn't fit their idea of what a 'project' should be!

Ironically, a scruffy old bike that's already road worthy, is probably a far better project base than an old derelict. The bike is all there, serviceable and working. You can see what it SHOULD look like before you start pulling it to pieces, and you can pick and choose what work to do, in what order, depending on what's important to you, and probably NOT find so many problems along the way!

If you want a 'cheap' bike to get your licence on, please hear what I'm trying to tell you. DON'T buy a bike thinking that you'll make some huge saving by getting a fixer upper or project. Its highly likely that all you'll achieve is oil stains on the patio, and a lot of frustration.

Again, look at the ebay advert examples, and how MANY 'unfinished' projects there are! Nearly ALL of them started by people with more optimism than know how. And they don't get finished, as often, not because they don't know what they are doing, or are clueless mechanics, though some are. Normally its because they reach a point where they realise the actual enormity of the job, the costs, the time and the hassle, and concede that they were far more optimistic than they were realistic.

IF you are going to take on a project, like Donnas Pup, you HAVE to have clear Project Objectives, and be sure you are going to get 'value' out of the project, not just disappointment.

In Donna's case there were a lot of Project Objectives. As said, the first was to teach her mechanics, the second how motorbikes work, the third to build her a bike that was as good as it could be and would inspire confidence riding it, for her to do her rider training and tests on, and to keep as an every day, low running cost commuter beyond that.

As said, the value of the bike to do her test on, is negligible. We could have hired a School Bike for her rider training and tests for about £200, or bought a £1000 YBR125 of her own, she could use between lessons, that we could have sold on after for within £100 of buy price, ultimately costing no more than a hire bike. At the top end, we could have bought her a brand new Honda CBF125 for £2500, to do her training and tests on, and sold on after a year for perhaps £2000. So at MOST the value of being able to do training and test on 'the Pup' is practically no more than £200, the cost of a school hire bike.

Built to an almost 'as New' standard, and incorporating a few custom features and useful accessories, the total build price is not too exorbitant, in comparison the a brand new Honda CBF125, but unlike that it doesn't come with a warranty or guaranteed spares back up, and its instant resale depreciation is no where NEAR as good! Its a twenty five year old Honda 125. It may be a very nice very tidy bike, but on the open market, other nice tidy CB125 Super Dreams rarely fetch more than £800 or £900. IF some one was shown the receipts and the complete photo rebuild, I doubt they would offer much more than perhaps £1200, if that for the bike.

Now Donnas bike has been built to an incredibly high standard, it really is as close as you practically get to a 'no expense spared' renovation, but believe me, we have HAD to spare some expenses to make it viable, or even the 'price of a new bike budget' would have gone out the window! So really, she's achieved a £1200 bike, plus £200's worth of training tool, for about £2500, and a lot of hard work.

That MEANS the 'project' will have 'cost' about £1100 in parts, plus all the time, effort and hassle to put them all together, and make them a motorbike. The question IS, is the year of mechanics between buying and riding WORTH that money? Has she got £1100's worth of fun out of doing this project? Has she LEARNED £1100's worth of knowledge? And is the satisfaction of riding this bike, knowing she has built it, with her own hands, the way SHE wants it, worth £1100?

Only SHE can answer that question, and so far she has unequivocally answered 'Yes', and added that she could NOT have got a bike like this in any dealers, and she wouldn't have had anywhere near as much fun writing a cheque as she has twirling spanners, and she would have learned absolutely nothing about mechanics or how motorbikes work, and not have had anything like the confidence riding a new bike as she gets from this one, or the joy of a bike that's that bit different, unusual and generally 'special'.

So ultimately, she's happy with the outcome, and deems it worth the money and the effort. But its been a lot of both, and ultimately, no one else but HER can derive that same value.

Back to the start, If you want a bike to ride, DO NOT think that buying a cheap one, is necessarily a good way to go. It can very easily become a fixer upper, and that can just as easily prove to be a complete project bike.

If you want a fixer upper, just to get a cheap bike, again, there are far to many people all with the same idea. They are far too often proved disappointed.

If you REALLY want a 'project', REALLY think long and hard about it. You need an awful lot more than nieve optimism and enthusiasm. You really need a lot of dedication, and commitment, and you REALLY need to be realistic and practical about the economics, and practicalities of it all, and what you want out of the project BEYOND merely a bike to ride.

If you read the Blogs of the renovations of my bikes, or Donna's Pup, and the "How To" articles there's a lot there that might convince you a project is a lot easier than it really is, or that there are loads of ways to avoid having to spend too much money. BUT apply caution. at time of writing Donna's 'Pup' has been work In Progress for nearly a year, and that hasn't been unduly delayed waiting for pay days to be able to afford to get parts holding up work. Nor has it been unduly held up by finding the time to work on it, in and around work commitments, family, or domestic chores. The Corporal was Work in Progress for around five months. Again, unfettered by work commitments or financial constraints. AND aided by having my own store of 'ready spares', and a well stocked tool box.

These projects CAN be done. And they can be done to a good standard, and to a reasonable budget. But they are far from 'easy', and they are fraught with risks and problems you have to be pretty sure you can handle.

As a platform for a project base, or fixer upper, little bikes usually aren't the best candidates. As said, if you want to do a 'project' to give yourself a bike to take training and tests on, really, you'd probably be better of simply hiring a school bike, or buying a rider, you know is easily saleable. And if you STILL want a project bike, picking a bigger bike that you can build up to ride on your full licence. You will find far more and better candidates to play with, which are as easy to work on, and as cheap to get parts for, which have far less risk of not getting to completion, and be able to offset much more of the effort and expense against the greater use you can get out of them when built.

If you are still not put off a 'Learner Legal' project, then from experience, I can honestly say that choosing a Honda CB125 Super Dream you are making life difficult for yourself. They are great little bikes, but they are also quite cantankerous, and demanding.

For a novice mechanic, it's a lot easier to get to grips with the mechanics of a less sophisticated motorcycle, and starting out, I would advice considering something with twin shock rear suspension, a single cylinder engine, preferably air cooled, and preferably a two stroke, also something more common, with better spares support.

Of the old two stroke commuters that meet this remit, though, most are suffering quite badly from lack of both new and used spares. Probably the best bet for a first time project at the moment is the venerable Honda CG125. It has a cult following, and second hand prices are strong. As such its a bike you stand a much better chance of getting a little more out of in resale value for whatever you put into it.

Its also got very good spares support, with the model, still in current production, though not by Honda! Well, a variant of it is still in production, by Honda, but it is being built in China under licence, and other countries, and there are a lot of parts available in consequence through those channels.

The single cylinder engine means that if major engine work is required, the costs tend to be half as much. If a rebore is needed, It has a bigger cylinder to be machines, but its only one machining operation, not two. Piston might be larger, but it probably wont be much more expensive than one piston for a CB125 twin. It only has one exhaust pipe, and one carburettor, and one ignition coil, etc. And its a durable low tech little lump, with push rod valves, so its not much more difficult to work on than a two stroke, and less prone to damage than the Over head Cam twin.

The rear suspension is another big saving, it has simple twin shocks, which if completely knackered are about half the price to replace as the mono shock on the Super Dream, and it only has bushes to replace in the swing arm pivot, not in every joint in the suspension linkage! Front forks are still available reasonably cheaply too, rather than having to try and get old Super Dream items expensively re chromed.

The list goes on. Its not as nice a bike to ride as a Super Dream, and it doesn't have the performance of a good CB125, but as a potential project, it has FAR less areas where problems may be encountered, and far fewer complex assemblies where inordinate expense may be incurred.

Alternatively, if you want a fun little bike that will turn heads, and offer performance, and don't mind a little bit of extra work, then there's the Yamaha RD125LC or TZR125's. Popular little 'Teenage Revival' bikes, the Yamahas are in many ways easier to fix up than the Super Dream. They have a monoshock rear suspension system, but its a simple cantilever on the RD and a more robust and common linkage on the TZR. Meanwhile the engine, though water cooled, is a simpler two stroke single, that is not that much more difficult or expensive to recondition than a CG engine. And they fetch more realistic prices, making them that bit more financially viable.

The CB125 Super Dream, IF you want one for a project, is NOT the easiest, nor the most economically viable, then.

So IF you are looking for something to cut your teeth on and learn mechanics, really thing hard whether a Super Dream is the bike to do it with. You need to accept that its a little perverse, and a bigger challenge, and that the rewards aren't going to be so great. But if the challenge, and doing something a bit 'different' is part of your Project Objectives, AND you have a good clear and realistic idea of what you are taking on, THEN a CB125 Super Dream may be worth looking at. BUT, there are an awful lot of other, and possibly better projects you could do, you need to consider before committing to one.

Common Faults and What to look for

There are two or three stages of 'review' for a bike being offered for sale, and lots of different things to look for, some of which are more important than others, depending on whether you want a Project / Fixer Upper, or a Rider.

The first review stage is gleaning is much as you can from an advert, to decide if its worth pursuing. From what's in, or NOT in the advert, you can compile a list of queries to put to the seller to decide whether its worth going to see or not. Then you have actually looking at the thing. Firstly, an initial, 'over view', then a more detailed inspection, possibly test ride, maybe by some one with a bit of mechanical acumen, or even an independent engineer like an AA Inspection or similar.

But the starting point is always the adverts. So I have compiles a selection of recent e bay ads for Honda CB125 Super Dreams and critiqued them, telling you what I read into the advert. This should give you a good idea of a lot of the common problems these bikes suffer. But starting at the top.

AGE & Mileage.

Don't mean much on these bikes. A Honda CB125 Super Dream is going to be a twenty something year old bike. And a Learner Bike at that, which is almost certain to have had a succession of more clumsy and less clued up, learner owners. ALL 125 Learner Legals suffer this problem, and twenty something year old ones are going to have been around long enough that they have had a LOT of exposure to the kind of wear and tear Learner Legals get, on top of plenty of opportunity for neglect, abandonment and general decay. General condition, standards of maintenance, repairs and overhaul are FAR more important than the actual age or mileage of the bike.

For note, the model was introduced as an '82 Catalogue Model. In the UK, the earliest bikes registered were on an 'X' suffix registration. of the form ABC123X. This became a 'Y' Suffix in August 1983. Running out of year letters to stick at the end, they flipped the order round so for August 1984, they gained an 'A' PREfix registration of the form A123ABC, incrementing to a B, for August 1985 C, for August 1986 D, for August 1987, E, for August 1989, F for August 1988, G for August 1989, H for August 1990, J For August 1991. K for August 1992.

The Honda CB125 Super Dream had three 'updates' in its ten year production history. The first models produced from '82 to 84 were suffix TD-C. But this relates to the year of MANUFACTURE not the year of first registration. Bikes Registered on X, Y, A, should be TD-C variants, however UK demand for the model wasn't as great as Honda had anticipated, and dealers were running out TD-C models as late as 1987, getting, B, C, and in some cased D prefix registration numbers. The first updated model was the TD-E, which commenced manufacture in 1984 and remained until 1988. But while UK dealers still had stocks of unsold TD-C models, few were registered before 1987. Earliest TD-E's appear on D, though more usually E or F pre fix registration plates. Practically the only difference between TD-C and TD-E versions is the paint schemes, and TD-E's being badged as a CB125T 'Deluxe' rather than a 'Super Dream'. 1988 on TD-J models differ in having cast three spoke wheels rather than com stars, tubless tyres, and CV carburettors rather than slide carbs, as well as different colour schemes, again.. Few TD-J models were sold in the UK, the greatest number of bikes are TD-C's. TD-J's tend to be on G, H & J prefix registrations, though you may find a late registration that languished in a dealers show room longer than it remained in the official Honda Sales catalogues!

The 'average' annual mileage of a motorcycle is currently around 4000 miles, a very low figure, reflecting how many machines these days are kept purely for occasional leisure use. When the Super Dream was in the Current Catalogue, annual average mileages were around 6-7000. This was not uncommon for small capacity Learner Legals and commuters, that were far more often used as everyday transport, and many covered up to and some times beyond the 10K mark, close the the national average for a car at the time of approximately 12K miles.

Generally, the 'Little' Super Dream proved itself 'good' for a respectable 40,000 miles. Well looked after, models could achieve perhaps 60K miles, but few ever have been that well looked after. Most Learner Legals tend to survive as every day machines for around seven years, before falling into the 'cheap heap' bargain bin, where they probably need more work than they are worth. So a reasonably well looked after bike, doing say 7000 miles a year, could pretty well be expected to be at the end of its expected service life, at seven years and 49,K miles. Lower mileage machines might stretch that out to around ten years. BUT, on the Super Dream, the engines tend to start suffering anticipated bore wear in the engine at around 35,ooo miles. But the biggest 'killer' of Honda 125 Super Dreams, tends to be neglected servicing. Significantly oil changes and the internal oil strainer, which if neglected can lead to premature bore wear, poor oil pressure and ultimately cam shaft seizure.

Looking at one today, it's unlikely that a surviving machine has been in continual service since first use, and any example considered will have had periods of 'lay up'. Its also most likely that machines will have been taken off the road for a fault that was deemed too expensive to fix. Unloved for a long while, its possible that the price of a rebore or a pair of new tyres could have rendered a machine 'beyond economical repair'. Resurgence in the bike market, and new supplies of parts, particularly for these models, has made many 'Scrap' bikes more viable to repair, along with increasing resale values as older machines have established some sort of 'Classic' status. This accounts for many of the 'Derelict' machines offered with optimistic prices, as well as a large number of 'unfinished projects'. But MOST of these bikes on the market today, if not actual Derelicts offered for 'restoration', likely to have been one. And if by some remote dint of chance, a machine has managed to avoid any lengthy lay ups or periods of dereliction and decay, to have survived in service this long, it can be presumed the machine will have had to have had quite a lot of maintenance and repair work undertaken as its been going along.

So, SIMPLY because of the age of these bikes, age and mileage should only be of notional interest. Overall general condition, is by far the more important thing to worry about, and a buyer should be looking more at the standards of maintenance and repair undertaken, (or not!) on the machine.

Crash Damage.

All motorcycles are vulnerable to crash damage, and Learner Legals, bear the brunt of the statistics that say Learners are something like nine times more likely to have a 'recorded' accident, than a qualified rider. The 'Recorded' bits important, stats are only made form accidents people report, either to police, emergency services or insurance companies. MOST Learners fall off at some point, often frequently! And with minor scuffs and scrapes and no one else hurt, these tumbles seldom make the stats. We could probably triple the probability of a Learner accident and still not even get close to the real likelihood of a bike being dropped. But, we can be pretty sure that the probabilities are so high, its pretty much an inevitability, and its incredibly unlikely that you'd go look at a 20 year old 125 that HASN'T been dropped or crashed. Most WILL have, and repeatedly!

But, they are Learner Legals. They are light weight machines, of limited performance, and they tend not to suffer 'such' heavy accident damage as larger, faster bikes. They still CAN, and bent forks, buckled wheels, and twisted frames still need to be looked for. But for the most part, the most common injuries are dented petrol tanks, bent handlebars, broken clutch and break levers, bent gear and brake pedals, scratched exhausts, shattered mirrors, bent and broken indicators, scuffed engine cases, and occasionally, cracked or 'holed' cases. In the parlance of the salvage dealers, what they tend to describe as 'light cosmetic damage'... though they often stretch that a long way!

'Light Cosmetic Damage' is the Bodger's delight, so many believing its all cheap and easy to fix, and you can save even more money by using second hand spares.... Unfortunately, the parts that are most vulnerable to 'LCD', are the ones you'll need, and the ones that will least frequently be available second hand! Though sometimes you can get 'lucky' and with things like cracked or holed engine cases, from engines that have been seized. Things like levers and mirrors though, you'll tend to buy new at around £15 a pair, and fixing LCD to get a bike through an MOT, with cracked indicator housings, can prove quite expensive! Anyway....

First of all, you need to look at the wheel alignment. Preferably with the bike stood up straight and on its centre stand. From the rear, the back wheel often looks like it is out of line, sitting a little to the left of centre. This is actually normal!

If the bars are 'off' to the front wheel, this could be just the foks twisted in the jokes, which is easy to sort out. But could be bent forks, or bars. OE Super Dream handlebars are actually quite strong, and being relatively narrow, often don't bend that easily.
____________________
covent.gardens: lihp is my most favourite member ever

[lihp]

Right £550 is on the expensive side for an old CB125 Super-Dream.
At that price is ought to be taxed tested and ready to ride away.
Should also be all there, be pretty original, and very tidy.
Should start easily, and idle quietly, with no smoke. Should rev cleanly and pull readily to an indicated 60 on the speedo.
will do 70+ but will take a bit more room. To 60 they are pretty spritely. If it struggles then it has problems.
Spares normally mean 'scrap', and why would you want them?
If the bike's worth £500+, you would bloody well expect the engine to be good and not need replacement!
And they are only worth anything (about £100 each) IF they work, and if they aren't in the bike, how do you know that they aren't Do-Do's with worn bores or knackered mains, that aren't worth squat?
(But if you get it, I might be able to find a use for them if not so great, I have two than I need to rebuild, and one that has a duffed bottom end!)
Things to look for, copied from something else I was working on:-
Brakes:-
The CB125TD-C was remarkable on its launch for a very powerful, twin piston, floating calliper front disc brake. Now usual on most bikes, at the time, disc brakes were the preserve of the more sporty models. Most commuter bikes sufficing with drum brakes, and many smaller capacity machines, with disc brakes having only marginally more effective, mechanical, cable operated callipers, not proper hydraulic brakes. But even then, a lot of bikes, and certainly the ones in the 125cc class, like Yamaha’s RD125LC or Kawasaki’s AR125LC, had only single piston callipers, where the little ‘Super-Dream’ had a state of the art, twin piston calliper, not seen on a lot of bigger bikes. These are also a very robust version of the Nissin calliper used by Honda still. However, as all brake callipers, they live in a hostile environment, and are prone to corrosion, and need periodic maintenance to prevent them seizing, and neglected the chrome pistons will rust and pit, demanding replacement of the pistons and seals. As the pistons tend to be fairly expensive (about £20 each) having two, makes this calliper twice as expensive to fix properly when the pistons have ‘gone’.
The rear brake is very effective, conventional, rod operated, drum brake, comparable to those of its peers, almost up to the models demise in 1991, when the RD125’s successor, the TZR125, first gained a read disc-brake.
Steering:-
The CB125TD-C was originally fitted with ‘cup & ball’ steering bearings. These are loose balls in a circular track, sandwiched by a second circular track, and are predominantly designed to resist loads end on to the shaft they support. These are more than adequate, and have a few advantages over more modern ‘taper-roller’ bearings which are conical rollers sandwiched between two chamfered rings, which are designed to resist loads both end on to the shaft and side on to the shaft they support. These bearings offer much better support for the steering, and can resist much more load, so don’t offer as much free movement, as well as needing less frequent adjustment, and usually lasting longer. Until recently, though the accuracy they had to be made to was a lot harder to achieve and they were far more expensive than cup-and ball bearings. Now however, the disparity is that much smaller, and there is little reason to use cup-and ball bearings where a taper-roller fitment is available.
Front Suspension:-
The CB125TD-C has conventional telescopic forks at the front, but with a usefully large 31mm diameter stanchion. That was a similar diameter to its peers like the RD125 or AR125, and the same diameter as the modern CBR125. For comparison, the CG125 uses a spindly 27mm stanchion. Hydraulically damped, (With ATF automatic gearbox oil, as standard) there is nothing ‘special’ about the CB125’s forks, apart from they work very well, and are very easy to service, or repair, and there is little excuse for them not to work wonderfully. Most though don’t, because they work well enough most people never give them a second thought until the seals ‘go’. Like all telescopic forks though, their Achilles heel is rust, and pitting on the chrome fork stanchions, which if particularly bad, demands their replacement, or re-chroming. As they need a special, ‘hard-chrome’ with precision ground surface, this can be expensive, typically around £150 for a pair of forks. If new stanchions are available, are often cheaper than re-chroming. Unfortunately, for the CB125TD, though they aren’t, meaning if the forks are bent or the chrome too badly pitted or flaked to be serviceable, the only recourse is better second hand replacements.
Rear Suspension:-
The CB125TD-C’s rear suspension is by multi-link, rising rate, ‘mono-shock’. Like the twin-piston front brake, this was state of the art sports-bike technology when the model was launched, and more advanced than the rival RD125 whose mono-shock was a simple fixed rate cantilever arrangement. This gave the little Super-Dream, very sure handling for a bike of its era, and is barely bettered by the contemporary CBR125. It is certainly far superior to the under-damped, ‘twin-shock’ rear suspension of the CG125 and other commuter bikes, including the contemporary CBF125 and YBR125. But, only when its well looked after, and few are. The multi-link arrangement has a lot of mechanics between the swing-arm and the shock absorber, and used hard, these wear, making the suspension sloppy and soggy, and often lowering the bikes back end, making the forks tilt backwards making steering ‘lazy’, resulting in a less than inspiring ride. But again, working so much better than usual commuter fare to begin with, few stop to consider this actually a ‘fault’. Left derelict, the joints don’t wear, they seize, which is probably just as bad. They need frequent attention, and servicing. This need not be too onerous, merely a periodic inspection and greasing, and early models, to aid such attention actually have grease nipples on the swing-arm pivots and the lower-link pivot, though that’s only three out of about eight joints! And if there is severe wear in the rear suspension linkage, it can be horrendously expensive to put to rights. Most of those joints have ‘split’ bushes in them, and they are around £8 each, making it £16 per joint. Times six. And if the inner sleeves also need replacing, it’s a lot of money. Mono-shock suspension units are also expensive to replace if they have lost damping effect. New, standard, replacements are around £80 (compared to roughly £40 for a similar pair of ‘twin-shocks’ for a conventional commuter) More sophisticated, ‘adjustable’ units, can be any tree times that price.
Wheels & Tyres:-
The CB125TD-C got Honda’s second generation ‘com-star’ style alloy wheel. Unlike a spoked wire wheel, this uses metal plates bolted between the wheel rim and the wheel hub, rather than wire spokes laced between them. Made of aluminium, it provides for a lighter, stronger wheel, which still has some ‘compliance’ in it, unlike a solid cast wheel. This was an important feature at the time, when cast alloy wheels were prone to cracking or fatigue fracture. Again, they were state of the art, but more importantly, they were a lot more stylish than the more functional looking earlier versions. They take 18” tubed tyres front and back, a 3.25 imperial size at the rear, a 3.00 imperial size at the front. I believe that that is roughly the same sizing as was fitted to the contemporary AR125, and a little larger than the fitment on the first RD125’s with 18” wheels. Later versions of the RD got a more fashionable 16” front tyre, and while 17” wheels would be the modern norm for a sports-bike, interesting to note that the CBR125 uses 18” wheels with very similar sized tyres on them. Ie “narrow”. This does have advantages, and for a Learner-Bike, most of them are very useful. One important point to note, is that they are not an obsolete size, and there is a good choice of tyres available in appropriate sizings.
They are, however a PIG to clean. The rims and spoke plates have a hard anodised finish, but they do tarnish over time, but the hubs are painted, and that can start t flake. But the main problem is that they gather all the road grime in almost impossible to get at crevices between the plates, which are attached at the rim with hot-rivets, and at the hub, with anti-tamper bolts, while the plates proclaim a stamping which reads ‘DO NOT DISASSEMBLE’.
Electrics
The CB125TD-C has a very good 12v electrical system. The bike had an electric start, again very avante guarde for its era on a ‘little’ bike, and to be sure it worked reliably, given they dropped the kick-starter of earlier models, they gave it a pretty hefty 9Ah battery and a big 150w generator.
Lighting is battery supplemented, so it doesn’t go dim with low engine revs, or off without the engine running as many small bikes do, and the headlamp is a pretty useful 45W tungsten lamp, with a good beam pattern from the square headlamp. At least the standard ‘Stanley’ made items. Aftermarket replacements, often with lower wattage ‘Halogen’ bulb actually aren’t so good, even though they may be brighter. There is a fully appointed dash-board with mechanical speed and rev-counter, both back-lit with the side-lights on, and tell-tales for the indicators and high-beam, and a neutral indicator lamp. There are brake-lamp switches on both the front brake lever and the foot-brake pedal, and the starter motor solenoid is wired so that the engine cannot be started in gear, unless the clutch lever is pulled in. There is no side-stand inhibit switch to cause ignition maladies, and the engine’s ignition, is a transistorised ‘CDi’ system with contact-less trigger, on a self energised circuit. (it has its own windings in the generator, so it doesn’t take power from the battery, but will only get power when the engine is turning over) Electrics are often a bone of contention on old bikes, but they aren’t particularly difficult on the little Super-Dream. Ignition faults are often something that vexes a lot of people, usually the fact that they cant find any power on the ignition circuits, because the engines not running, causing them to do a lot of fault finding by replacement, swapping lots of pretty expensive components like the coils or CDi units for no other reason than a bad earth connection. These, like any old bike, the CB125 has its fair share of. The important ones though are the earth for the regulator, the earths for the ignition coils and, and the earths for the indicators, which have hidden earth straps where they are rubber mounted. Most are easily ‘sorted’ though
Engine:-
The CB125TD-C has a four-stroke, parallel twin cylinder, air-cooled, engine, with chain drive single overhead cam-shaft and two-valves per cylinder. It has twin carburettors, and an electronic ignition, and is rated at 12.5bhp (The UK Learner-Limit when the bike was manufactured)
Originally conceived as a ‘sports-bike’, it revs very willingly to a 12,000rpm red-line, to offer comparably performance to the two-stroke sports-bikes of its era, like the Yamaha RD125LC or Kawasaki AR125LC. De-tuned from approximately 15bhp of earlier or other market models, it was not ‘restricted’ like the Two-Stroke Yamaha, and so not easy to liberate any cheap or easy extra power from. Conveniently this has tended to mean that they weren’t often bought by ‘boy-racers’ who meddled with the engines in misguided attempts to tune them! The engine design entered serial manufacture in 1977, and has proven itself a fairly dependable and robust unit, if properly maintained, especially in the smaller, less stressed 125 capacity.
It is a feature of this engine that the crank-shafts are supported on four needle roller bearings, with roller-bearings for the con-rod little end. These low friction bearings are one of the features that allows the four-stroke engine to reliably and safely rev to such high rpm. However, they are not tolerant of poor lubrication. Like many small Honda’s the oil filter is a strainer in the sump of the engine, that requires the primary drive cover to be removed to gain access. The maintenance schedule, suggests that the engine oil should be changed every 2000miles, and the oil filter removed and cleaned every second oil change. Neglecting these procedures is about the ONLY think guaranteed to kill them. Their other foible is for piston ring and cylinder bore wear that all engines suffer, leading to low compression, and associated high oil consumption. This engine, this is no more prone than any other ‘high performance’ motorcycle engine, apart from the fact that with only 12.5bhp, and a learner-owner, few recognise that it IS a high performance engine, and probably don’t even know that high-performance engines need the frequent oil changes stated in the maintenance schedule, and shouldn’t be thrashed from cold.
Cosmetics:-
Cosmetically, the CB125TD-C is ‘conservatively styled’, and unlike its two-stroke rivals, doesn’t boast any extraneous body-work, by way of fairing or belly-pan or anything. It was available in three basic colour options; Red, Black and Silver. Side Panels tend to crack at the top beneath the end of the tank. Lugs get snapped off. Should be plastic cover over the horn.
Look at the plastic tail cowl where it is bolted to the support rail under the seat. They ALL snap at the seat end. Rear mudguards crack around the mounting holes, inside, under the seat.
Look carefully at the headlamp & Indicators. Its all on a wire cage clipped to the yokes rather than blades on the forks. Any misalignment is evidence of crash-damage.
Should be plastic cover on handle-bars over the yoke around ignition switch.

Otherwise, very useful little learner-legals, See stuff on site. BUT they are NOT an 'indestructible' hack commuter like the CG125, they were Honda's 125 Sports-Bike offering to go up against the two-stroke RD-LD and AR-LC, on performance. Hardier then the 2T's, they have proved pretty tough, and incredibly many have survived as well as the supposedly 'indestructible' CG, BUT they rev to 14 thousand revs! They are a hi-po bike, and ought to get commensurate maintenance.

Plus side for larger learner, they are a big-bike in miniature, and have a lot of features and sophistication of a bigger bike. though they aren't huge.

Riding position though is pretty good, and they aren't too cramped for a little bike. I'm 6'2" and long in arm & leg. Its comfy enough, and there's no fairing or anything to get in the way of your knees and room to move about on the long flat saddle.

Cant think of anything else OTMH so best of luck....
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covent.gardens: lihp is my most favourite member ever

[salem1987]

LOL

[salem1987]

so ill fit the manifold then?

[Carvel]

Did you not read a word they said?
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2002 Aprilia RSV1000R, Cbr600Fs, Mk1 B12, Vfr400 NC30...

Matt B: I can deal with crushed nuts to beat Ollie.

[Fisty]

Such autism
Many sperg
So bullshit
Wow
____________________
Quietly and consistently taking the piss.
TL1000R | Hayabusa | ZXR400 | TL1000S | Bandit 400 V
Fatter and faster than Fret

[lihp]

[salem1987]

Riding position though is pretty good.

Single carb it is!

[Fisty]

https://archive.desustorage.org/foolfuuka/boards/mlp/image/1417/64/1417648810362.gif
____________________
Quietly and consistently taking the piss.
TL1000R | Hayabusa | ZXR400 | TL1000S | Bandit 400 V
Fatter and faster than Fret

[lihp]

[temeluchus]

Going back to basics; CD200 only makes 15bhp anyway.... so if you were to machine 125 cases to take take 200 barrels, then use CD200 crank so you could fit CD200 pistons... you would have a CM200 motor in effect.... a 15bhp 5-speed Benley engine.

You'd get more power from using JUST the 'Full-Power' T-Spec cam from earlier CB125 twin..... that offers 17bhp, and probably 'key' to making ANY improvement over stock CB125 lump.

Using the CD200 crank of course would preclude using that cam, unless you got the crank pressed apart and re-phased 180 deg, or had the Benley cam reground to the CB125 full power profile...

Something I have drawn a blank on getting any-one to 'do', whether cutting that profile onto a blank, or regrinding either 125 'reduced effect' 180 timed cam or 360 timed CD/CM cam.

Mixing & matching the various CD/CM/CD bits, nigger in the wood-pile is constantly this piston/gudgeon/con-rod issue...

To which end, as far as I'm aware no one has found answer....

Nightshade has taken notion furthest in the metal, and I believe he baulked at the gudgeon pin problem trying to get CD200 slugs onto the CB125 bottom end, & don't know what he has done about it, I suspect he's running 125 barels at the mo.

Chinky 'Big-Bore' kit, using oversized 125 pistons on 13mm gudgeon, get you out to 142cc, which ent bugger all in grander schemes, but would appear to be as 'big' as you can go without seriouse engineering...... but, running 'reduced effect' Super-Dream cam-shaft, reports suggest, isn't worth more than a bhp or so.... which brings us back to the 'full-power' 'Twin' profile cam, that's worth 5bhp, with a pair of 26mm carbs.

Its a game of swings and round-abouts, and the variouse motors are all so much 'there or there-abouts' in terms of stock power, irrespective of capacity... its identifying what ingredients from each are 'key' to maximising by mixing.

CB125 'Full' power cam would appear to be the BIGGEST key to finding more power, offering almost as much as any of the other engines of any capacity, without the extra capacity.

Bumping capacity alone then, is not likely to see such big gains, with risk, that what you do to gain capacity could see bigger losses...

Eg... if you did manage to graft CB200 pistons onto CB125 conrods... CB200 is a 15bhp engine, and effectively reducing its capacity.. I think its actually 186cc on 41mm stroke.... you would get LESS than standard 200 makes.... so something under 15bhp.... and with 'reduced effect' 125 offering 13bhp as stock, there's only 2bhp in it to begin with......

Given the margins we are working with, then, have to think hard about doing 'cheap and easy' stuff just because you CAN, or think you can... because risk is it wont work, bigger risk, that chasing the 'knock-ons' you do more and more work TRYING to make it 'work' in the process!

Remember, Honda only ever managed to get 21bhp from ANY of the Benley motors, in the CMX 250 Rebel, running 53x53 bore & stroke for 233cc capacity.

233cc CB250, only managed 19bhp. Early CB200 with 'plug' type heads only 17bhp. CD200 only 15bhp. CD125, only 11bhp. CM125 only 10bhp.

CB125 'Reduced Effect' Super-Dream or TD-C/E/J attaining 12.5bhp, is then pretty 'respectable' for any of the family engines.

CB125T (Twin-Shock) managing a 'claimed' 17, is bludy excelent, and as much or more than almost any of the relatives, bar the 233cc motors....

If you spend some time on CMSL comparing part numbers between the family, you'll find that the later twin-shock T's ran the CDi ignition used on the Super-Dream and the CDi units are same part number. The rare 'Full-Power' Super-Dream, basically runs the last of the line Twin-shock engine, only updated with different carb-bodies with, linked cable-op choke. Differences between the Full-Power & Reduced effect Super-Dream, is the carb size and the cam shaft.... that's it! Valve sizes, exhausts, everything else is the same!
____________________
Some shite cruiser. Now with guns and FREEDOM!

[salem1987]

what jetting should i use for single carb set up?

Also will the gearing be affected?

[temeluchus]

First of all make sure that the cam chain tensioner mechanism & blades are in thier slots and lined up in the camchain gallery before you begin. They will NOT go in after you have timed in the cam, becouse you wont be able to get them past the cam-chain sproket.

Tensioner mech on the back, slot the CCT adjustment screw through hole in barel and add lock nut loosely to hold it in place, but DONT try and bolt up the top end through hole in head. Until you have the cam in place, and timed in, caps on and the head torqued down, squashing the head gasket, it will be out of line. Also dont put the CCT blade in the top of the adjuster just yet, or it will 'bow' and put some tension on the chain, and make it hard for you to work round.

OK, so barel on, head on, lets get stuck in.

I have pictures for this on my hard drive somewhere with intension of doing How2: Top-end Rebuild, but none of them are sized, so you will have to use your imaginationand my colourful descriptions.

Engine on the bench infront of you, exhaust ports to your left, inlets to your right, you have the generator rotor ringt infront of you.

TDC is marked on the rotor as TF I recall, but ignore it... through the inspection window in the cover, if fitted, its not accurate enough, and without the cover not even that.

Windscreen washer hose through the plug hole, FIND TDC by feel, and line it up 'on the rock' half way between pipe not coming out of going back in the hole. Leading edge of the induction trigger lugg should be bang on 12 o'clock if the engine's level, and in line with one of the cover screw holes.

Now, the cam, should be inserted. But first remove the cam sproket, and hold it in the Cam Chain galery.

From the back side, slide the camshaft over the head, the cirlcip end YOUR end... looping it inder the cam chain, and into the middle of the Camchain sproket, WHICH you want with the cut out upper most.

Now with the cam chain over the cam, and the cam chain sprocket, on the cam, seat the cam bearings into the bosses in the head.

OK.... NOW the 'fun' Begins!

Rotate the cam in its journals until the slot in the end looking at you is pointing at the inlet ports and is level with the journal boss.

With the Cam in THAT possition and the LH Cylinder at TDC, the cam is timed in.... all you now have to do is get the cam chain sproket on teh cam, and teh chain on the sproket, with teh crank in THAT possition, and the cam STILL in that possition.....

Good Game, good game!

Cam has boos on it with two holes to bolt the cam chain sproket to.

Cam chain sproket has cut out so you can 'drop' it to lift the cam chain onto the teeth... you will do this, then lift the cam chain sproket UP to locate on its flange, and bolt to the boss, to discover that the holes in teh sproket dont line up with the boss on the cam.

You may now, and to yuor hearts content, randomly rotate and lower the sproket to drop the camchain off the crankshaft sproket, rotate it an unknown number of teeth, and try again... its worth a shot, anyway, becouse you will do this unintensionally.....

However... the better way to do it, is to slightly rotate crank to make slack on one side of chain or other, then lift ONE link, and 'roll' the chain round the sproket on tooth, to drop slack off the other end, then lift up, and match up, and repeat until you have the sproket lined up with boss on the camshaft.

When you DO, CHECK the crank possition, AND the cam slot possition.... you will almost certainly have dropped off the crank sproket at some point and fucked it up......

Take NOTE... this is fiffing faffing fidly fuckarsingly annoying.... but its simply patience and try, try again.

And do NOT think, 'Oh, that looks about right' and slap it together....

The cam chain stretches, so the front 'run' gets longer, which puts the crankshaft ahead of the cam, or 'retards' the cam timing, as the cam chain wears, you want to set it as CLOSE to as advanced as you can get it, and the bike will run better, and for longer.

NEXT bit of advice.... if it loops easily as you work the cam chain round, and or the cam sproket slots onto the camshaft flange nice and easily when you mount it..... your fucked.

The cam chain is grossly stretched and probably doesn't have much more than 1000 miles left in it, before it breaks.

You'll be doing this all before the head'c torqued down, remember, so the gaskets wont have squashed. When you DO clamp it down, distance from cam centre to crank centre will shrink a tad....

Hence more reason to be critical making cam as advanced as you can... but also why if the camchain isn't 'tight' on the sproket and the sproket a bit stiff to hook onto its flange, you'll have a LOT of slack n that chain, the tesnioner wont be taking up, when you do hook it up.

ANYWAY, that's the principle, alignments are a TRUE top Dead centre on LH cylinder, which is roiughtly TF mark top of rotor, more accurately leading edge of ignition trigger lug aligned with upper most geny cover hole, but BEST found by feel on the rock with TDC indicator through plug hole.

CAM alignment is slot level with cam-cap boss, pointing inlet wise, (3 o'clock)

Cam chain worked around on the cam, to get it to line up with boss on cam, when on teh flange, and critically set with as MUCH advance as you can get away with.

If needs work the chain round an extra tooth and see what the alignment is.....

ONCE you have it times in, nip the cam chain sproket screws in place, fit rocker assembly / cam caps.. but DO NOT toque them down, do the nuts finger tight...

THEN turn the engine over VERY gently by hand, with a small torch shining through the plug hole, looking at the valves opening.... and make sure that the valves do NOT touch each other or the piston.... and check both pots.

As you rotate the engine, cam will put pressure lifting the rocker assemblies, then relieving it, letting them drop.... so keep rotating the engine slowly and finger tightening all the head nuts holding the rocker caps on, taking up the slack, and getting them to seat nicely, and evenly....

THEN roll motor over again, once the rocker caps are 'home' and MAKE SURE the valves dont touch anything...... THEN return to the cam chain tensioner, and fit that up properly, and attach the tensioner blade, and apply tension.

You will probably have to slacken off the tensioner top nut to let it slide and put tension on the blade, and you'll probably have to waggle the blade to get it to adjust up.

Nip up tensioner adjustor, then do the tappets... then with all 'set' work motor around AGAIN to be sure nothing is gong to touch....

THEN you can torque down the head fully.... AND check valves AGAIN!

It oughtn't be too much of a pain, but it IS, its just niggly!

It is easy to get the cam 180 'about', one of two ways. Either circlip end away from you, or slot at 9'oclock, with LH piston at TDC.

More common is trying to put the cam in 180 about, ie circlip end to the RH side of engine..... do that and it IS possible, cam will be rotating BACKWARDS... not good!

But follow the book, 12 o'clock on the rotor, 3'oclock on the cam, and bobs your uncle!... well, he's my cousin, but I suppose he must be SOMEONE'S Uncle!
____________________
Some shite cruiser. Now with guns and FREEDOM!

[lihp]

[Jewlio Iglesias]

As usual disclaimer: This is NOT a definitive guide, nor is it a substitute for the PROPER Haynes / Clymar manual for the bike in question. Bike featured here is a 1987 Honda CB125TD-E, But principle pretty much of a much for most bikes with two carburettors.

Syncronising or balencing CarburettorsThe twin-carb Honda CB125T, is pretty simple, as it has just two 'Slide' carburettors and they aren't 'banked' with a complicated linkage to fret about! If/When I get round to it some-time, I may update showing it done on the 750. Anyhow, for now, done on the Super-Dream. Its not so mysterious, and with the right tools, only need take quarter of an hour or so.

Starting with the 'right tools'; you don't need much for this job, but you do need a bit of 'specialist' workshop equipment, a set of vacuum gauges. Otherwise, it can normally be done with some pretty regular screw-drivers. A long thin bladed screw-driver like one in my hand here, is useful to get at the twiddly bits on the carburettor.

And on the CB125, I can do the job without having to lift the petrol tank or anything off, as the carbs and thier adjustment screws are fairly accessible. On other bikes, you may have to remove side-panels and possibly the petrol tank, which may require setting up some sort of 'remote' tank to feed the carbs petrol while you set them up. I have in the past 'improvised', putting the petrol tank removed from the bike on to something higher then the carbs.... a spare wheel on a Black & Decker work-mate or a stak-a-box on an old chair.... and then using a length of long pipe to connect to the carbs.

OK, lets see what Mr Haynes has to say about this job, on the CB125, shall we?

Haynes - 1. Carburettor Synchronisation consists of ensuring that the throttle slides are at exactly the same height at idle speed. that both lift at exactly the same time when the throttle twist grip is rotated and that both are at the same height at any given engine speed. It is necessary to check this to ensure that both cylinders pull together and not against one another.

Well that makes sense. BASICALLY, its matching the carbs to the same throttle setting, so they both get the same amount of charge and make as big a bang as each other. Imagine if the throttle cable to one carb was disconnected, the cylinder that carb fed would be trying to idle, so if you wound the throttle open, the other cylinder would be doing all the work, and more, trying to chivvy the other one up to the same revs. SO syncing the carbs is a good thing. Each cylinder in sync with the next, not held back by it, you will get better throttle response, more power and better fuel economy. ALL good stuff. But looks so COMPLICATED! Do we really need those funny dial things?

Haynes - 3. The Method recommended for synchronisation requires the use of vacuum gauges

Haynes - 4. Vacuum Gauge sets are now available from various suppliers who advertise regularly in the national motorcycle press; while they may be considered two expensive for the average owner, it is well worthwhile considering the purchase of a set if the owner is planning to move on to a larger capacity multi-carburettor machine and is planning to carry out his own maintenance. For those who don't have access to a vacuum gauge set, the machine may be taken to a Honda dealer....

Hmmmm... well Mr Haynes seems to think so, at least. I am certainly inclined to agree that they are well worthwhile, if you intend getting a bigger multi-carb bike. But, in the olden-days, practiced mechanics would synchronise carbs 'by ear', and do a damn fine job of it too. I was once treated to a demonstration by an old master of the art who put a set of gauges on a four cylinder bike, and showed how far 'out' the carbs were. He then removed the gauges, and synchronised the carbs by ear, before putting the gauges back on to show how closely they matched. they were 'spot on'. And for a little twin like this, with such simple little carburettors.... you could probably set them up without gauges 'close enough'... BUT... lets follow the instructions first.

Haynes - 5. Before carrying out syncronisation, check that the contact breaker gaps, ignition timing, tappet clerances, carburettor float bowl levels, jet sizes, pilot jets, pilot mixture screw settings are all correct. also that the air filter elements are clean, that the exhausts are in sound condition, that the spark plugs are correctly gapped and working properly, and that throttle cable is correctly routes=d with no kinks or sharp bends and is properly lubricated and working smoothly. This is because one cannot expect to gain the full benefit of carburettor syncronisation if some faulty or maladjusted component is upsetting the remainder of the engine induction and exhaust system, or the throttle cable is so badly damaged or worn that it cannot lift the slides at the same time regardless of the settings in use

Phew!...Basically, service everything ELSE first!

Haynes - 6. Start the engine & warm to normal operating temperature. Stop the engine, remove the side panels, unlock and raise the seat, propping it with a piece of wood, and release the petrol tank rear mounting, raise the rear of the tank as far as possible without straining the petrol pipe, then prop the tank in that position with a piece of wood. Check there is adequate fuel in the tank and switch the tap to 'res' position. Slide up the rubber sleeve fitted over each throttle adjustor in each carburettor top and screw fully in the adjustors. Slacken fully the locknut fitted to the throttle cable twist grip adjuster, then screw in the adjusting nut to gain the maximum free play in the cable.

Right..... Warm engine, slacken throttle cable.

Haynes - 7. Using an impact screwdriver, slacken and remove the vacuum gauge adaptor blanking plug from each of the cast inlet stubs. These are 5mm screws; Replace them by screwing in the vacuum gauge adaptors. Attach the hose from each gauge to one of the adaptors, then start the engine.

Right..... OK, so that blanking screw will be the one I have put in the red circle marked '1' in pic on left, beneath. And in the picture centre, the brass tube thingies screwed in its place will be the vacuum gauge adaptor. And pic right.... hose to go to the guages. Good, good. That looks simple enough.

Syncronising or balencing Carburettors Syncronising or balencing Carburettors Syncronising or balencing Carburettors

Just make sure that the hose is attached at the other end to one of the gauges. Unions arrowed in pic below.

Syncronising or balencing Carburettors

This is of course a four-way set of gauges, so up to four carbs can be balanced at the same time. Convenient for motorbikes that have four cylinders and four carbs. Of course I'm doing a twin, that only has tow carbs, so only have to use two of the gauges. These are also dial type vacuum gauges. There are also 'manometer' or 'tube' type gauges, which are more accurate, but not as easy or convenient to use. However, they are fairly easy to make from clear PVC tube and some hard-board, and if you are a real make and do freak, have a google, there are plenty of 'how-to's on how to make your own. You also don't need to have one gauge for every carburettor. You can synchronise any number of carb's with a simple balance 'pair' of gauges; you simply balance two carbs together, then you pair one you have balanced with the next one you haven't and leaving the 'done' one alone, balence the one that's not done against it, then again for however many carbs you have. It's just more fiddly and time consuming than having a gauge for each carb. Anyway, lets get on with the job.... what was Mr Haynes saying?

Haynes - If the gauges are fitted with adjustable damping valves, adjust the degree of damping until a steady reading is gained. but be careful to check that the instruments can respond quickly to throttle changes. Note the readings obtained, disconnect the hoses and attach each hose to the opposite adaptor. The readings should be the same; if a discrepancy is found in one particular gauge it must be noted and compensated for.

OK... so all connected, engine running, and the damping valve on my gauges is the white 'dot' in the hose between adaptor and gauge. Little plastic 'tap' basically. Screw it out and the needles go crazy wavering around some difficult to descern mid-point, more you wind in the screw, less the needles wobble! Get them fairly steady, and if you can see behind, they are both showing fairly similar numbers, these carbs (set 'roughly' by ear!) were not far out. Swapping the pipes over; readings swap dials but remain the same, so my gauges are pretty well calibrated, but if needs be I can do that 'compensation' thing, by unscrewing teh cover off the front and adjusting the calibration screw, that drags the needle's start point round in relation to the scale behind.

Syncronising or balencing Carburettors Syncronising or balencing Carburettors

Haynes - 8. With all preliminary checks and preparations carried out the task of synchronising can begin. With the engine idling smoothly, note the readings shown by the gauges, rotate the throttle stop screws until the two readings are consistently identical; some careful work will be necessary to achieve this result. When both gauges show an identical reading, check the idle speed shown by the tachometer is within the limits of recommended idle speed, given in the specifications section of this chapter. If not, rotate both throttle stop screws by exactly the same amount to achieve the recommended speed. Re-Check the vacuum gauge readings and modify the screw settings until the readings are once more identical.

OK, well checking the specifications, suggests that for the CB125, idle speed ought to be around 1,200 rpm or so. WHY cant they just print the ruddy number, rather than making you dart around!

But onwards; 'throttle stop screw'? Ah... more flipping and we find another graining black and white picture, under a different section! There it is, on picture showing the right hand side carb, in circle marked 'B'. Of course the carbs are identical, so on the right hand carb, its idle screw is in the same place, on the left hand side, but of course that's hidden between the two carburettors, so you cant get at it very easily! This is where the long thin electricians screw-driver comes in handy, so you can get to both idle set screws from the same side of the bike.

Syncronising or balencing Carburettors

And Mr Haynes simply suggests we simply 'fiddle' with the settings until we get both vacuum gauges showing the same thing, and the tacho needle showing the right revs, potting the whole process down to 'Some Careful work will be necessary', and offering absolutely NO useful advice how careful or how it should work! OK! Time for me to walk you through it.

Syncronising or balencing Carburettors

Pic of the gauges again. These read 'backwards' As vacuum pressure increases, the needles swing anti-clockwise around the dial. Its a perverse following of convention, as we are measuring negative pressure, ie less that atmospheric, so the needle is going the other way to the way it would on a compression tester or tyre pressure gauge that reads positive pressure above atmospheric. Looks scary and complicated, with numbers round the outside, the inside and some sort of segmented guide between them. Its pretty straight forward though. The large white segment marked '0' is the rest position, atmospheric pressure, and where the needle ought to be before you connect pipes and turn engine on. Clock-wise from that, marked 1,2,3,4, 'Normal' 8,9; is positive pressure, which we can ignore, we are going to measure 'vacuum'. So we are looking for the needle moving anti-clockwise, and this gauge is showing about 200mm of vacuum, in a red segment of the guide, which looks worrying. Its actually about 7.5 negative psi or half normal atmospheric pressure, so actually its not that bad. Needle probably wont fall anywhere close to the green bit marked 'Normal', which is around 20 psi vacuum less than one atmosphere beneath atmospheric pressure. Will go down if you rev the engine up, but I'm not sure how far it might go, I have never been brave enough to try it!

OK.. we are familiar with the dial, and we know which way the needle is going to swing, and all we have to do is leave one idle set screw alone, and twiddle the other one, and watch what happens to the needle. If we screw the idle screw in, and the needle drops, then we look at the other gauge and decide if we want the needle to go up or down turn the idle set screw the corresponding way to get the two to balance. Simple, right?

Well not quite. As you bring the carbs into closer synchronisation, the idle speed will tend to increase; this is because the 'eager' carb, giving once cylinder more charge, is either being closed up, to give as little charge as the lazy carb, or the lazy carb is being opened up to give as much as the eager one, but in either instance, the 'eager' cylinder isn't having to 'drive' the lazy one so much, so less power is being sapped, and that is going to make the engine accelerate a bit, and the revs will go up.

Balancing by Ear - This is how old-time mechanics could balance carbs 'by ear'. And its entirely possible, on a simple little bike like this, if you don't have any gauges.

Leave one idle screw alone, and simply twiddle the other idle screw until the revs start to rise. Keep turning that idle screw which ever way makes the revs lift, until they start going down again, then back a tad the other way until you find that 'peak' idle speed from setting THAT carb.

Now you can ponder the idle speed, and if its a bit high, you wind out the idle screw on the carb you left 'set', perhaps half a turn. Remember as you go out of sinc the idle speed will drop by more than what it will be when synced, so you let the revs down to something a tad less that you would like on the 'set' carb, then you bring the other down by half a turn, and as you do so, the revs should rise again, as the carbs come back into sync. And again, quarter turn either side to find the 'peak' balance point.... and back to pondering the idle speed. Repeating the process, adjusting the base idle on the one carb, then finding the balance point on the other, until you have the best balance at the idle speed you want.

Its THAT simple?...... so why all these ruddy gauges and stuff!?! Yes... well, we do have a tendency for over complication some-times.

Balancing By Gauge - The gauges, though make it a little easier and can get the synchronisation a little more accurate; its the same process you follow, but instead of just listening to the engine note or looking at a probably wobbling rev-counter needle, you can look at the gauges, and when both needles are reading the same, the carbs are in sync.

Only thing you really need to be aware of, is that the reading in the gauge for the 'set' carburettor will change with the idle speed. As you come closer to sync, the idle speed ought to rise, and that will make the reading on the 'set' carb gauge drop. So as you turn the idle screw on the other carb, its a matter of watching both needles, and 'catching' them as you find the balance point. And its a lot easier if you adjust the idle screw very slowly, so that you don't get any 'lag' in the readings, or you make a small adjustment, then let the engine settle and watch the gauge readings for a moment, before re-adjusting.

So, when you come to it, the gauges aren't 'essential', and on these little twins, I will as often as not balance the barbs without gauges, entirely by ear, and they will, as pic, be within a few mm of mercury vacuum of each other; but when 'setting up' a freshly built or serviced engine, or after major works like a carburettor clean, I'll use the gauges to help me get them 'close' to base settings, with less 'faff' and get the sync closer when finally set. And as a bit of a confidence check, as well. But, I'll be working a BIT by ear and intuition and a bit by the gauges.

Worth also, remembering the comment Mr Haynes made at the beginning; "Carburettor Synchronisation consists of ensuring that the throttle slides are at exactly the same height at idle speed." Its not very easy or so practicable, BUT, another trick of the old-time mechanic, particularly on things like the big old Brit-Twins like the Bonneville, was that they would 'balance' the carbs, literally by measuring the gap between the bottom of the slide and the carburettor throat! Big-Brit-Bike, with a pair of 1 1/3" 'Open' Amal slide carbs, this was not so difficult; little CB25 with a pair of tiny 24mm carbs, tucked in a tight space between the frame rails, and plumbed into air-boxes, its not that easy. BUT; if the carburettors are off the engine, its possible to use this method to set a fairly close 'base' setting to work from, before fitting them; winding the idle adjustment screws all the way out, then putting the slides into the carb-bodies, without the cables attached, so that the 'bottom out', then adjusting the idle screws so that they 'just' lift the slides, and then checking that the heights are 'even' by eye, before fitting, as a reasonably good place to start before balancing by ear, with the air-boxes all plumbed in.

OK, so that is the carburettors synchronised. Well, at least at 'idle'. Other thing Mr Haynes said at the beginning; "that both lift at exactly the same time when the throttle twist grip is rotated and that both are at the same height at any given engine speed"

Haynes - 9. When the engine is idling smoothly and at the correct speed with both vacuum gauges showing the same reading, fully open and close the throttle once or twice. The engine should return to the same idle speed and vacuum readings; if not stop the engine & examine closely the throttle cables. If any tight spots or other damage is causing the cables to lift the slides unevenly the cables should be renewed. If all is well enlist the aid of an assistant for the next step and stop the engine.

OK, in short, give the engine a rev and make sure it comes back to the idle you have set. If not, check the cables.

Haynes - 10. With one person operating the twist grip and watching the tachometer reading, the other can watch the vacuum gauges and adjust the carburettors. Start the next step by rotating the adjusters in the carburettor tops until all but the slightest trace of free play from the junction box / carburettor top sections of the throttle cable is eliminated. Start the engine and recheck the idle speed and vacuum gauge readings; these should not have altered. Increase engine speed to 4000rpm and note the new readings as soon as they have stabilised. A tolerance of up to 4cm Hg is permissible at this stage, but it is still better to have the two readings identical. adjustment being made by rotating the throttle cable adjuster in the carburettor tops. This requires care if it is to be carried out accurately. Avoid risk of engine damage through overheating by minimising the amount of time the engine spends at 4000rpm; the correct adjustment takes time. Stop the engine and allow to cool down before continuing.

Syncronising or balencing Carburettors

So... basically this is the same deal over... only difference is we are going to balence the carbs on the cable adjustors, 'A' in the photo, rather than the idle speed screw.... and we are going to balance them at some higher engine speed.... hayned suggests 4ooo rpm.

And what we are trying to do, is get the carb slides at the same height, alowing in the same amount of air.

Having done that at idle, really if the cables are the same length and picking up the slides at the same time... ought to balance anyway, if we have done job right at the beginning.

OK... well, right at the beginning, Mr Haynes told us to slacken off the throttle cable at the twist grip, so there was no chance that the slides were being held off the idle set screws by the cable. Now he says we need a second person to hold the twist-grip and watch the revs......

What I do.... Adjust up the twist-grip cable adjuster, until the idle speed starts to lift. Almost guaranteed one of the individual carb cables will be longer than the other, so when I have adjusted up at the twist-grip end and the revs start to rise, ONE slide will be being lifted off its rest. Other one probably isn't.... so I fiddle with the cable to find which one is loose.... and adjust out the slack.

Then, like doing the idle-balance, leaving that one alone, come onto the other one, and do a 'swing' by perhaps 1/4 turn either way and listen for a revs increase and find a peak balance point.

Cables now 'closely' balanced and lifted just off the stops; I can wind the revs up to about 3-4ooo rpm on the twist-grip end adjuster; so the slides are well clear of the stops and the cables are under tension.

Bit of luck, the gauges will tell me they are in balance still, but if not, watching the gauges, and listening to the engine note, I can swing one adjuster 1/4 or 1/2 turn in either direction.... slowly..... to find a balance point. The actual revs now do not matter. But they will go down as you go out of sync and up as you find the balance point, and you ought to be able to tell by ear, and not have to look at the rev-counter or have some-one telling you what its doing! Ought not change much any-way... 500 rpm either way max, and your ear is far more sensitive than the rev-counter anyway! Especially as its probably only six inches away from the pistons!

OK. New mid revs balance point found. At higher revs, the vacuum reading ought to be higher, by the way.

So, now, you can increase the revs a little, maybe 5-6oo rpm, on the twist-grip, and check the gauge readings, which ought to still be pretty close. If not, adjust in the twist grip adjuster to hold the higher revs, and do another balance.

When happy, wind the twist-grip adjuster out, and let the revs fall back to idle. Then set the free-play on the twist grip so that at idle the tension is off the cable, and the throttle slides are resting on the idle stop screw. You ought to have perhaps 1/4" or 3-4mm of movement in the twist-grip before it starts doing anything.

More, you may not get full throttle. Less you are likely to have the carb-slides hanging on the cable, not fully closing, and likely that as you turn the handlebars from lock to lock, any change in curve in the cable, from being pulled tighter or wider as the twist grip moves in relation to the engine, through cable routing, the engine revs will change, the engine most likely racing as you turn the bars to the right, pulling the cable into a tighter curve, lifting the slides.

Swing the handle-bars from lock to lock, slowly, and make sure that you have enough free-play at the twist grip.

And THAT is about it. Last check, before disconnecting the gauges is to check the balance at idle, and up the rev-range a bit, accelerating the motor slowly, and letting it 'settle' at a steady engine speed before worrying that the gauge needles don't line up or are going all over the place. As you open the throttle under acceleration, vacuum drops, as does air-speed through the carburettor, until the engine starts accelerating, then it takes a little time for the vacuum to stabilise, once you have found and held a new engine speed.

Don't go nuts and rev the bearings off the thing, but go through a few engine speeds, and see that the needles stay within that 4cm of mercury tolerance, and then pack up. Job done.

Oh... Hold on.... Mr Haynes has some more to say on the matter.

Haynes - 11. When the vacuum gauges both show a reading that us consistently identical at 4ooorpm, with a difference of up to 4cm Hg being acceptable at this engine speed, the carburettors can be considered synchronised. Close the throttle and allow the engine to retuirn to its idle speed which should not have altered, nor the vacuum gauge readings at this speed. Stop the engine and replace the rubber sleeve which protects each carburettor top cable adjuster taking care not to disturb the adjuster setting. Using the adjuster underneath the twist grip, adjust the throttle cable so the twis tgrip can be rotated 10-15 degrees before the slides begin to lift. Tighten securely the adjuster locknut then fully open and close the throttle once or twice to settle the throttle cable and start the engine. Check the vacuum gauge readings are still identical at idle speed and within set limits at 4ooo rpm. If all is not well, the fault is likely to lie within the throttle cable.

Yeah... Ok.. more or less what I said.

Haynes - 12. When the carburettors are accurately syncronised,disconnect the hose from the adaptors, remove the adaptors, then re-fit and tighten securely the blanking plugs. Return the petrol tank to its correct position and secure the tank rear mounting, then lower the seat and refit the side panels.

That's the elaborate way of saying 'Then Pack up' then!

SO, job done. Carbs balanced or synchronised or synced, whichever you prefer. Basically the slides in each carb set up so that at idle and when lifted by the cables, they are at the same height in the carb body, or at least flowing the same amount of air so that the bang in each cylinder is the same strength and you don't have one eager cylinder and one lazy one, the lazy one holding back the eager one, robbing you of potential engine power or economy, and the engine ought to respond more eagerly, give better mpg, and more power. This is 'Tuning'... harmonising everything in the engine to pull together, like a conductor tuning an orchestra to pull together and make sweet music and it's all good stuff, and where small simple changes, can make a big difference.
____________________
21:41:40 petalbriefs: look phil, I dont preach to you about bowling pins or whatever, so you stick to that and I'll stick to cars
21:38:18 Northern Monkey: chav lives in the garage with an almax on it
21:34:54 rhys99: My train got stuck in heavy traffic

[Ste]

Well that was a fun thread to read but it's lacking in three areas.

It needs more cats.
It needs more bacon.
It needs more modern sports 600's.

Other than that, some of the points are lacking in detail, perhaps you could elaborate a bit like on the most important snippets of information that you've posted.

[salem1987]

i'm still a little confused to be honest. Its a lot of information and i'm grateful for it but do i need to do my category A test if i manage to get the HP up a bit with some careful tuning?

[Jewlio Iglesias]

How do I get a Licence?

The most accurate source of information on this topic is probably to be found from; "Riding motorcycles and mopeds" on the UK 'Directgov' website. But it is often difficult to follow! What is offered here, is then for guidance.

There are two KINDS of UK Licence, a 'Provisional' Licence or 'Learner-Licence' and a 'Full' Licence.

Any-One 16 or over may hold a Provisional licence. (Each entitlement 'category' though has its own age eligibility. You may only really ride a moped at 16 years old. At 17 you may have either motorbike or car. You don't need to pass any tests, just fill in the forms and send some pass-port photo's and payment to DVLA and they send it back.

This is issued to allow you to 'Practice' for tests. Once you have passed a DSA Driving qualification, be it for a moped, a motorcycle, a car or a tractor even, you send off your test-pass certificate and are awarded a Full UK Driving licence. BUT it is ONLY a 'full' licence for THAT category of vehicle you have passed tests. It REMAINS a 'Provisional' licence for all categories you have NOT qualified for. (Ie: If you hold a Full licence, for a car, you shouldn't need to apply for another licence to ride a motorcycle!)

The Provisional Licence, however doesn't really let you drive or ride very much. Provided so you may 'practice' for tests, it imposes a lot of restrictions on where and when you may drive or ride. And the main one is that until you have passed the DSA Test, you may ONLY ride or drive while under supervision of qualified instructor.

There is but ONE exception to this, and that is for motorcyclists, who, due to legacy laws from the days when supervising a learner rider by radio was not practical, are allowed to ride either a moped, or a 'Restricted; Learner-Legal' motorcycle up to 125cc and 14.5bhp, whilst displaying L-Plates; but you must not carry passengers (pillions) nor use motorways. AND provisional Entitlement has to be 'Validated' by completing an approved CBT course and obtaining the completion certificate.

What is CBT?

CBT is Compulsory Basic Training. TRAINING, it is not, repeat, NOT a 'Test'. Simply means you have had the FIRST LESSON!

It is NOT a riding qualification; it doesn't mean you have 'earned' your 'learner-licence', it doesn't mean you are a competent rider, and it does NOT teach you 'everything' you may need to know to be able to pass the actual licence tests!

At the end of it, IF you have reached a 'satisfactory' (very low!) standard of competence throughout the course, you are awarded your DL196, or CBT (Completion) Certificate, that validates the provisional entitlement of your licence, that lets you START riding on the roads, unsupervised, on a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle, for up to two years.

I go into a lot more about CBT & what you do, and how it is organised, in Tell me more about CBT?, so keeping it brief, here. The Course is designed so that an average student ought to be able to complete the course in a day, and be able to start riding, RELATIVELY safely. (Though depending on how much you have to learn, and how long it takes to master the exercises, SOME students may have to come back for 'further' training. They do NOT 'fail' CBT, they merely do not 'complete' the course to satisfactory standard)

IT'S YOUR FIRST LESSON

As such, before you invest ANY money in a bike, or gear, or 'anything', its a very good way to have a go, and see if you actually LIKE riding a bike. It ISN'T something for every-one, and some people struggle, and decide after that biking really isn't for them. Though, MOST I have to say, usually leave their CBT fired with enthusiasm and even more eager than when they started.

IT'S NOT A TEST

So, you DO NOT have to practice for it; you do NOT have to do ANYTHING much before hand; just turn up and do, and if you have any questions; ASK THEM! That is what the course is for. It is your introduction to biking.

Its a Day-Out, doing a new thing. When you book, you ought to be given some advice on what you'll need. Some schools will provide pretty much everything; bike, helmet, gloves, water-proofs. Some even offer lunch! However, 'School' rider-wear is often not that err... 'nice'... and most people prefer to buy and bring their own 'kit' before hand. Again, I offer advice on this in Tell me more about CBT?, but potted version is talk to the school, ASK what you should bring. Probably, "Crash-Helmet, Gloves, Lunch, Common sense, and wear 'sensible' out-door clothing, and check the weather forecast before you dress!

CBT is to help you get a bit clued up, and we TRY and make it fun. So DON'T worry about it. Its just a day out, playing with motorbikes. Your first lesson; You don't NEED to know anything about them before you begin, and it WONT make you an expert in a day, but it will give you a good start.

DO I Have to Do CBT?

YES!

OK, actually, there are a few exceptions. BUT WHAT THE HECK! If you have to ask, then YES YOU DO!

Generally ANY new rider will have to complete a CBT course to gain their DL196 form, to validate the entitlement of their provisional licence to ride on the road.

If you check the Directgov website; there are some confusing exceptions and exemptions; some drivers have exemptions under what are known as 'Granddad-Rights' because they gained provisional entitlement before CBT was 'invented' (circa 1990 ISTR). There is a raft of convolutions around moped licences for car licence holders that get quite confusing too.

BUT, ultimately, if you want to ride a powered-two-wheeler.. that's instructor speak for a moped, motorbike or scooter, by the way, on the roads... JUST do the ruddy course!

If you DON'T by dint of one of these wonderful 'exemptions' ACTUALLY need the Certificate? Well, what the heck. Damn site better to have the form and NOT need it, than have to argue about it with some half clued up beurocrat that expects to see it!

Meanwhile JUST for the sake of; the course IS a good start, and it WILL teach you something, and that 'something' could just be the one thing that saves your life, OR points on your licence, OR a painful and or expensive accident!

I used to teach CBT courses, I ought to 'Know it all' you would hope! Well, I sat in on my Girlfreind's CBT course last year, and it wasn't SUCH a vital detail, but I picked up some hints and tips on motorcycle maintenance, an easier way to do something, and some suggestions about looking after my crash-helmet and avoiding 'glare' on the visor. We can ALL learn something new!

Its a VERY worth-While course, for ANY-ONE starting out riding a motorbike, or coming back to riding one after some years break.

So JUST 'do-It'!

I don't see the point in getting a licence; why should I bother?

The Provisional Licence Validated by CBT is NOT a 'Licence-to-Ride' its a 'learner's permit', a chance to get some practice so you can take the tests and get the 'Proper' Licence.

Every OTHER motorised road-user HAS to pass their tests BEFORE they are allowed on the road, unsupervised. Fact that motorcycles are the exception is actually rather bizarre, given that motorcycles are the mort dangerous form of motorised transport, and unsupervised L-Platers the MOST likely to crash!

The FULL Motorcycle Licence is your PASSPORT to ALL biking has to offer & ONCE you have it, you have it for LIFE!

Well, with the qualification, that during the first two years, under the new drivers act, you don't get it revoked, or after that, suspended by being an arse! Other than that; once you have the entitlement its ON your licence as long as you hold it. JOB DONE. And....

it is a FULL Licence, NOT a 'Big-Bike' Licence!

No-One is going to take it off you, if you don't go out and buy a bike over 200cc within six months of getting it or anything! You can ride a 'Small' bike on a Full-Licence same as you can a big one!

And, OK, you may have a hundred and one reasons NOT to think it's IMPORTANT enough to do as LONG as you can get out and ride a 125 on L-Plates without it, WHY bother? Just keep repeating CBT every two years.

I have heard EVERY single excuse for 'perpetual L-Plating' from perpetual L-Platers they can think of, and there is NO real valid reason for it. End of the day, boils down to Laziness, and ignorance. Or possibly JUST laziness, not being bothered to go find out the facts!

BUT, Lets hear a few of them out?

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?
I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?
I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for the miles I do!
I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

Yeah! an ALL to common attitude, amongst scooter riders. You buy a scooter because its CHEAP, so why spend money you DON'T have to! Tests cost money, and if you can get to work without them, why buy'em? Same with riding as a stop-gap until affording a car, and the more bizarre notion of a 'cheap' week-end 'Toy' bike. Almost all of them MONEY is a big part of the argument.

Well, IF you can afford to ride a bike, ANY bike, you can bludy well afford to take the sodding tests, mate!

The tests cost a mere £121.50 (as 2012) over and above CBT to let you wobble about an UNQUALIFIED hazard on the roads. Elsewhere I go into the costs of getting on the road, and if you can get a Learner-Legal Motorcycle, taxed, tested and road-worthy, afford to buy a helmet, insurance, and stick petrol in the ruddy thing, you will be doing damn well, to do so for under £1000. More realistically you will be looking at having to spend, £1500 - £2500 'all in'. £121.50 in THAT greater scheme of stuff is PEANUTS. And if you cant budget THAT right at the start, DON'T BOTHER even trying!

If you don't pass the bike tests within the first two years provided by your first CBT certificate? Well, you will have to repeat the CBT to extend your licence entitlement to carry on riding. THAT can be as expensive as simply doing the tests!

But WHY would you NOT take the tests? Either you are too lazy OR you don't think you are good enough to pass.

If you don't think you are good-enough to pass, WHAT THE FRIGG are you doing on the road?!?!?!?

Tests are there to set a basic level of competence, if you haven't got that, then you shouldn't be there. You are a DANGER to yourself and others!

Many DO seem to think that the tests are 'Very-Hard', but really, what they are asking you to show them is that you can ride around a few cones without falling over, and can ride on the road, in real traffic for forty minutes, not break any laws, or hurt any-one! If you are riding to and from work or college every day, you are PROBABLY already doing 90% of what they expect!

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?

See: I Only want a 'little' bike, It's not THAT dangerous, is it? Its NOT like I'm jumping straight on a loonie-big-bike!. You are not 'protected' in anyway, pretending to be a learner, riding a lightweight. Its JUST as dangerous, AND your economic argument's DO NOT hold water.

Repeating CBT every two years, is as expensive as doing the tests.

The Idea that a 'Learner-Legal' HAS to be 'Cheap' is also a fallacy. Yes they CAN return very good mpg, BUT; the actual bike is a LOT more expensive than it needs be JUST because it's learner legal. With a FULL licence you have access to the whole panoply of motorcycles, and where you will struggle to find a 'good' Learner-Legal for under £1000, you can get any number of VERY good bigger bikes for the same money.

BUT, for the super-tight economy-commuter, there is a very big 'bargain basement' of machines in the 'forgotten' capacity class from 150cc to 400cc; machines that often have hardly any more performance than a Learner-Legal, but only Full-Licence holders, most of whom having qualification to have a much more interesting machine, simply DON'T WANT!

These bikes, are often half the price or LESS than a similar 'Learner-Legal' machine, AND frequently an AWFUL lot less to insure. They cost no more to run, and frequently return as good mpg, sometimes even better.

So, idea that staying on L-Plates is saving you money is a fallacy. IF you wanted super-cheap wheels, the FULL-LICENCE, Is the pass-port NOT just to bigger, more powerful and more exiting motorcycles, but to ones that can save you EVEN more money.

I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?

So TAKE the ruddy tests and EARN your road-space like any-one else then! As the Scooter-Commuter; you aren't saving any money wobbling about on L-Plates. Use some of that 'saving' you are making to get the ruddy tests! Its just LAZINESS not bothering, and laziness on a bike is NOT a good way to survive.

I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

So? Why do you THINK that because you're re over 21 you HAVE do 'Do-DAS'? MORE why do you think that to 'Do-DAS' you HAVE to spend some ridiculous amount of money on an 'Intensive DAS' Course?

This is shear ignorance. You DO NOT have to do a DAS course just because you are over 21. Go read the sections: What is 'DAS'? & Intensive DAS Courses' What's the score?

I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for miles I do!

If you have a 'Full-Power' sports 125, you DON'T have a licence to ride the frigging thing to start with!

The Provisional Licence allows you to ride a bike up to 125cc and 14.5bhp. A Full-Power 'Sports' 125 probably makes something like 25bhp (though undoubtedly you will be convinced it HAS to make 33), and riding one, without a Full-Licence is NO DIFFERENT to riding a 250, or 400, 600 or 1000, you equally DON'T have the entitlement to ride!

It is NOT some bit of criminal 'genius'; it's not what 'every-one' does. Its not 'all part of biking', its certainly not 'expected'.

IT IS ILLEGAL

Got insurance on it? Well, implying that it is learner legal when it isn't, is insurance fraud. You are breaking MORE laws riding a 'cheat' 125 as you would be riding an R6 or whatever you really want, also without Licence or Insurance.....

If you are happy to break these laws, for the sake of the few pennies you probably aren't saving, given that Sports 125's often cost MORE to run than 600's or 750's..... Well, MORE fools logic. You may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, WHY bother, for the sake of maybe 10-15mph more illegal speed! These bikes may be impressive compared to a 65mph commuter 125, but compared to a 160mph 600? They are STILL not 'quick' or impressive machines to ANY-ONe who knows what they are looking at!

GET THE LICENCE and you can ride that 125 LEGALLY, you could ride the bike you REALLY WANT, LEGALLY, and it will probably be 'Cheaper'! If not, certainly be other bikes that will be!

THE EXCUSES KEEP COMING - But the answer always remains the same. If you want to ride a motorbike, then GET A LICENCE!

All of the excuses get blown away eventually, and it boils down to laziness and ignorance. Its not saving you anything, and the 'Learner-Restrictions' are ENTIRELY self imposed.

If you are OLD ENOUGH to ride a motorbike, if you can AFFORD to ride a motorbike; you are old enough and rich enough to take the tests and have ANY bike you want and can afford, NOT merely a Learner-Legal!

ALL for the sake of taking the tests and getting the PROPER licence.

The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

To gain a FULL moped or motorcycle licence, there are three tests.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception

Module 1 'Off-Road' practical test

Module 2 'On-Road' practical test.

These tests are conducted by the Driving Standards Agency, not the school you did CBT with. But the School may offer training to help you pass them.

As from January 19th 2013, there are three 'test schemes'; one for each category of motorcycle licence entitlement, to be applied to the two practical tests, Mod 1 & Mod 2. Plus one for moped entitlement. (Both Practical Tests Mods1 & Mod 2 must be taken on the same class of motorcycle.)

Category AM = Moped

You must be at least 16 years to ride a moped, and to take the full moped licence tests.

You may, upon completion of CBT ride a moped on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the legal specifications of a 'Moped' (see:- What is a Moped?), briefly a 50cc motorcycle, that says 'Moped' on the Registration document! It may be any style of powered two wheeler, like a scooter or a sports-bike, it may be twist & go automatic or have gears; but it must be less than 50cc and not be capable of more than about 35mph.

Both tests must be taken, as for the motorcycle test, and The tests are identical to the motorcycle tests, though allowances are made for the lower performance of the vehicle; eg during the Mod 1 exercises, that normally require a serve and e-stop manoeuvre above proscribed speeds that a moped would not be expected to achieve.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category P licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a moped, which must still conform to moped power, speed and weight restrictions. But without L-Plates and you may carry pillion passengers. Note:- Mopeds may NOT use motorways, irrespective of whether the rider has a full licence of any category. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)



Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

You must be at least 17 years to ride an A1 category 'Light Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A1 test scheme.

You may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle ( see:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?), Briefly a machine up to 125cc, with no more than 11Kw/14.5bhp power, but with minimum performance requirements for test; the machine must be over 120cc capacity and capable of 62mph. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A1 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of the same performance specification as is 'Learner-Legal' essentially still an 11Kw/14.5bhp 125cc machine, but without L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Catagory A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

You must be at least 19 years to ride an A2 category 'Middleweight Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A2 test scheme.

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for higher groups (A2 or A3/Full A)

However, you MAY ride a machine compliant with A2 restrictions, on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle. of at least 395cc with a power output between 25 and 35 kW (33bhp and 46.6 bhp). No upper engine size limit, but the power to weight ratio must not exceed 0.2kW/kg and it must not be derived from a motorcycle of more than double its power. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A2 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 47bhp.) And may not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg. The machine may be restricted from a model that manufacturers standard specifications claims more than 35Kw, but the standard model may not male more than 2 times the power required for restriction. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, and Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with A2 entitlement, if not already held.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

You must be at least 24 years to ride an unrestricted A category Motorcycle and to take motorcycle tests under the A3 / DAS test scheme. OR you must have held an A2 category licence for a minimum of 2 years. (So, if you pass A2 tests when you are 19-21, you can test again for DAS before you are 24, as long as you have held A2 at least 2 years)

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for that group.

However, you MAY ride any machine on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle over 595cc with a power output of at least 40kw or (53.6bhp). From the end of 2013 the power output will change to at least 50 kW. A minimum weight of 180 kg will also apply. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category A / A3 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity or engine power output. This does not necessarily mean that you have to, or that it is a good idea, to jump on the biggest, fastest piece of machinery you can find! (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, and Category A2 (33Kw or 47bhp 'restricted motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with full A / A3 entitlement, if not already held.

Automatic Transmission Restrictions

Pretty simple; you may test under any of the above test schemes, on a qualifying bike or scooter. Doesn't matter if it has a manual gear-box, or an automatic transmission, provided it meets other test requirements of engine displacement etc.

However IF you choose to use a machine that has an Automatic Transmission, for your tests, then again, you must use an auto for both Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests, AND if you pass both tests, your licence entitlement will be 'endorsed' with a restriction "Automatics Only", and you may NOT ride a geared machine.

Worth noting; The popular Honda C90 'Step-Through' commuter bike, has a three speed 'crunch' gear-box, and an automatic centrifugal clutch like a twist-and-go, and a number of contemporary motorcycles have engines derived from the old C90 motor, and retain the centrifugal clutch. Many now have a four speed gearbox, and have been bored out to a full A2 complient 125cc. The Honda Inova, is basically the successor to the C90 and has the 125cc 4-speed centrifugal clutch engine; but that engine & transmission is also used in many monkey-bikes, and pit-bikes, which are all A2 test compliant, if road-legal. However without a 'manual-clutch', a little digging with the DSA has revealed they are classed as 'Semi-Automatic' and hence testing on one will gain Auto-Only restriction, the same as testing on a twist & go. Bit of a pity that, as they DO have gears, but still.

When I gained my licence back in 1992, there was only one test scheme; you took the test on any 'learner-legal' motorcycle, up to 125cc that wasn't a moped, and you gained, straight away, a full unrestricted, ride what you like licence. They changed that, and until this year, you had to use a bike between 120 & 125cc, and do all three tests; and if you passed you got a restricted licence, that limited you to 33bhp machines for two years. But either way, it WAS possible to take tests on a 'Twist & Go' Automatic scooter, and gain a Full unrestricted ride what you like motorcycle licence with Auto-Only restriction... which was nie on useless; as there are almost NO automatic motorcycles over 125cc!

Actually, I can name, err... four. All built briefly in the 1970's and failing to gain market acceptance, any survivors probably hoarded 'collectors' items living on plinths in museums! The Moto-Guzzi 1000cc 'Convert'; The Honda CB750 'Four' Auto and the Honda CB400 'Auto', and a Hausquavana 500 two stroke Enduro bike!

So if you wanted a motorbike, an Auto-Only licence was significantly useless, and limited you to basically riding twist and go Learner-Legal scooters. And significantly, probably still does.

However, the popularity of the scooter has been rising in the last decade, seeing the genre creep out of the sub 125cc learner-legal bracket, back into the 250 class that some used to occupy back in the 'Mods & Rockers' era, and beyond, with the innovation of the 'Super-Scooter' that can be as big as a large motorcycle and have an engine as big as I believe 800cc these days, but still with a twist and go automatic transmission.

There are a few modern motorcycles with sophisticated 'automated' and usually selectable transmissions. Mostly from Honda. Electronically controlled, the ratio's shifted mechanically by electronic servos controlled by a micro-processor, the gears may be selected entirely by the micro-processor in a 'fully-auto' mode, or manually by the rider, in 'manual' mode, either by switches on a gear lever that mimic a traditional mechanical gear linkage, or by hand operated push-buttons. Strictly, I believe that these are classed as having a 'manual' transmission, and to be able to ride one on a licence with Auto-Only restriction would require any 'manual' mode to be disabled.... but I think that this remains something of a grey area, and an area of uncertainty for all concerned.

More conventionally, the Auto-Only restriction essentially limits riders to twist and go scooters, or whatever capacity licence entitlement provides; though with few 600+cc super scooters; gaining a Full Unrestricted A licence with Auto-Only restriction remains very unlikely. It may be possible to gain an A2 class licence on a 400-500cc super-scooter, and it would seem that manufacturers are designing more recent models to meet this licence requirement, and this may become more popular. But it remains that the Auto-Only restriction will probably remain most common for people riding A2 compliant Learner-Legal scooters.

The new three category licence system, does however raise a couple of questions with regard to auto-only restrictions. Mainly, if you take tests for one category on a geared machine, and another on an auto... what happens?

Well, up until now, if you took your Moped test and gained moped entitlement on a twist & go moped, you would have got the Auto-Only restriction against the entitlement. If you then took your motorcycle tests on a geared 125 or DAS bike, that would provide moped entitlement without automatic only restriction, so it should have been lifted form the licence, passing test at a higher category level superseding the lower entitlement. this 'precedent' I believe remains.

So, if you take, say the A1 test on a 125cc 'Twist & Go' scooter, and wish to take the A2 or A3 tests and do so on a geared bike, then you would gain A2 or A3 entitlement without Auto-Restriction, lifting that restriction from A1 entitlement.

However, what if you took your A1 licence test on a geared 125 and then took the A2 on a twist & go super-scooter?

Well, if you have gained a licence entitlement, then they cant really take it off you again, or impose a restriction on it. So if you had A1 entitlement without Auto-Only restriction, that would remain. BUT the auto-only restriction would be endorsed along side the higher group; so you would still be able to ride a geared 125, but anything bigger, would have to be an Auto to remain within the entitlements of your licence.

It is 'Best' if you can, to test on a geared machine. You can ride an auto on a licence without auto-only restriction, but you cant ride a geared bike on one with!

One amusing anomaly to ponder though; IF you took your A1 test on a twist and go 125 scooter; you would gain full A1 licence entitlement, but with Auto-Only restriction. And could then, obviousely ride a twist and go 125 without displaying L-'s and could carry a pillion and use a motorway. However, you still have Provisional entitlement provided for 'all other groups', SO you could still ride an A1 125 with gears..... but you would have to put the L-Plates back on, not carry pillions or use motorways! Now THAT is one to confuse your insurance company!

Side-Cars, Three-Wheeler's, Trikes & Quads

I feel I REALLY ought to mention these automotive anomalies..... yeah... there you go, I have. That ought to be enough! No? Well Oh-Kay then, fine.

These are automotive anomalies. Less than 5% of UK Road-Vehicle registrations are 'Motorcycles' or 'Mopeds'. Probably less than 5% of THEM have more than two wheels! This should NOT effect an awful lot of people! AND its such a godawful MESS where even the DVLA and DSA often don't know the answers, I'm sure as heck not able to!

So what I DO know! Well....

You may no longer take a motorcycle test on a motorcycle outfit, three wheeler or trike, unless you have a registered disability that prohibits you riding a solo machine, and any licence entitlement gained will be endorsed with restriction to the type of machine on which you took the tests. Ie if tested on a trike under disability dispensation, you couldn't ride a solo after without retesting.

Beyond that, it starts getting murky.

I believe that you MAY still be able to ride a motorcycle and side car 'outfit', unsupervised, on a provisional motorcycle licence, AND that if you do, the 125cc engine displacement restriction does not apply. You DO have to have a valid CBT certificate though, and the out-fit may NOT have a power to weight ratio higher than that permitted for a Learner-Legal 125 (o.1Kw per Kilo). Also you may NOT carry either a pillion passenger, nor a passenger in the side car. L-Plates must still be displayed, and you may not use motorways. You don't have to be disabled, to ride an outfit on L's, though you do if you want to take tests on it!

Then we are into the mire; because the same applies to trikes, BUT there is a rather impertinent set of questions over reverse gears, and vehicle classifications, dependent on weight and length and such. When is a trike Not a trike? When is a Side-Car outfit not a side car outfit? Even VOSA who's job it is to classify vehicles can struggle with this; DIY constructors of such oddities certainly do! (But I think they often find that half the fun!)

And ultimately, if you are interested in such automotive anathma's.... you have come to the wrong place! Best advice I can give, is if you want to ride a trike or outfit; do your conventional motorcycle tests, get the full motorcycle licence. Then go do the conventional car tests and get the full car licence as WELL, and with a bit of shot-gun marksmanship, you ought to cover the appropriate licence entitlement to ride one!


What Will I need to take to my Tests? How long is each valid for?

OK, Lets run through a Check-list of what you will need to ultimately get a Full-Licence.

A current UK 'Photo-Card' Driving Licence, Full for another group of vehicle, or complete provisional.

A Valid CBT Certificate or DL196 Form (To Validate Provisional Motorcycle Entitlement of Licence)

MOTORCYCLE Theory Test Pass Certificate

Module 1 Test Pass Certificate

Module 2 Test Pass Certificate

Those are the official bits of paper.

CBT-Certificate

I'll deal with CBT in much more detail in:- Tell me more about CBT?. Paperwork wise you don't really need anything apart from your Licence, to do your CBT course. You will however need a motorbike. Most people choose to use a 'school' bike to do their CBT on its easier and simpler. You get a lift to the school and just do what you are told all day, then go home. You MAY choose to do the course on your own machine though, but then you will probably have to provide the documents to show that the machine is legal to be used on the road, and you are insured to do so. Again, I'll deal with these later, Tell me more about CBT?

The CBT Certificate is normally valid for two years from the date of completing the course.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception Exam

You don't need a motorbike or anything to do the Theory/Hazard perception exam. This is a class-room exercise, you do on a computer. And you don't HAVE to have completed and obtained your CBT Certificate before you take the Theory Exam. You will however be required to show your Driving Licence.

It is important to note that there are a number of different Theory/Hazard perception tests for different vehicle groups. For a motorcycle (or Moped) you MUST pass the one specifically for motorcycles. A normal or 'car' Theory/hazard pass certificate will NOT be accepted towards the motorcycle qualification.

The Theory / Hazard Perception Pass Certificate, is Normally Valid for Two Years.

Module 1 'Off-Road' Practical Test

To take the Module 1 'off-road' practical motorcycle test; you will need to show your:-

Provisional-Licence

Validating CBT Certificate

Theory/Hazard Test Pass Certificate.

You will also need a motorcycle, meeting requirements for test scheme you have booked test under. See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

Note: The DSA Do NOT provide you with a motorcycle to take your test on. Nor will they 'hire' one to you.

You are responsible for ensuring you have a suitable vehicle to take the test. This may be your own, or hired, possibly via a training school.

You will be required to sign a declaration that the machine you have provided is road-worthy, and legal for you to ride. You MAY be requested to provide proof of this. For example, if you are using your own motorcycle, you may be asked to show the examiner a valid MOT Certificate. If you are using a School machine, you may be required to show a 'Waiver' provided by the school declaring that they have ensured the machine is roadworthy and legal for you to ride.

You will also be required to wear 'suitable' motorcycle attire. The DSA provide guidelines on what they deem and do not deem suitable motorcycle apparel. This means that apart from the legally required safety helmet, they expect you to be wearing 'sensible' protective footwear and gloves, and sensible out-door clothing that covers exposed flesh on arms and legs. They also suggest auxiliary Hi-Vis belt or bib, and take a dim view of trainers and track-suits, and warn that if the examiner is not convinced you are 'suitably' dressed that he may refuse to conduct test, without refund of test-fee.

Module 1 Test Pass Certificate is normally valid until the SAME date as the Theory / Hazard Perception Pass Certificate, that was in force when it was issued. (Ie: if you pass Mod 1 the day after your Theory/Hazard, its valid for almost two years. If you take it a week before your Theory Hazard is due to expire, its only valid for a week!)

Module 2 'On-Road' Practical Test

To take the Module 2 'on-road' practical motorcycle test; you will need to show your:-

Provisional-Licence

Validating CBT Certificate

Theory/Hazard Test Pass Certificate.

Module 1 Test Pass Certificate

NOTE: BOTH Module 1 And Module 2 tests MUST be taken under the SAME test scheme. (See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions.)

Eg: You cant take Mod 1 test on a Moped and the Mod 2 on a 600+cc DAS bike; nor take Mod 1 on a 500cc A2 machine and Mod 2 on an A1 125!

As Mod 1, you will also need a motorcycle, meeting requirements for test scheme you have booked test under. (See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions) And advice with regards documentation pertaining to it. As the test is conducted on public roads, a Certificate of Insurance is likely to be requested.

DSA guidelines and warnings on suitable apparel, again apply, as with the Module 1 Test.

Module 2 Test Pass Certificate is normally valid until your Full Driving Licence is issued, or re-issued showing the new group entitlement.

What Can I ride When I pass Tests?

See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions. What you will be allowed to ride on public roads after passing tests, will depend on which category of licence entitlement you have obtained, and that will depend on the 'test-scheme' you qualified under, basically what sort of bike you did your tests on.

Category AM = Moped

See:- What is a Moped?. The performance limitations imposed by law for a moped are pretty stringent. And loosely, the vehicle cannot have an engine more than 50cc and cant have a top speed more than about 35mph.

Before taking and passing tests you are allowed to ride a Moped on L-Plates, provided you don't carry a pillion passenger.

After Passing tests, you can remove the L-Plates... and that is about ALL.

Mopeds are not allowed on Motorways, whether you have a full moped licence or not. You may, if you have passed moped tests, carry a pillion, but with maybe only three and a half horse-power, at best, you probably wont want to carry one very far or very often!

Worth Noting, that many people seem to think that if you pass moped tests or gain moped entitlement via passing the car test, you can ride a 'De-Restricted' moped. Unfortunately not. The performance limitations set down in law for a moped are exactly that, and if a powered-two-wheeler can achieve more, either by being 'De-Restricted' or conventionally 'tuned'... then it no longer meets legal requirements to be classed as a moped, and cannot be ridden on moped entitlement. See Also:- What's NOT a moped! and De-Restricted Danger.

See Also: - Is it worth taking tests for a moped licence, 125-Only licence, or even A2 'Restricted' licence?

Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

See:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?. The Capacity & Performance limitations defining an A1 category motorcycle are exactly the same as those for a Learner-Legal motorcycle. Briefly, a machine up to 125cc and less than 11Kw or 14.5bhp, and with a power to weight ratio no higher than 0.1Kw per Kg.

Before taking and passing tests you are allowed to ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on L-Plates, provided you don't carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

After Passing tests, you can remove the L-Plates... Carry a pillion passenger, and if you wish, use Motorways. Otherwise you are limited to bikes you might have ridden before you passed test.

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Again, worth looking at De-Restricted Danger. The A1 licence is often referred to as a "125-Only" licence, and its often presumed that that means you an ride any 125 irrespective of the power or power to weight limits applied to learner legals. It's a presumption that is likely to be re-enforced by inaccurate re-counting of the 'old' licensing system that awarded a 'restricted A' group licence for testing on a 125, that permitted a machine up to 25Kw or 33bhp, a limit into which many 'Full-Power' or de-restricted sports 125's conveniently fell.

See Also: - Is it worth taking tests for a moped licence, 125-Only licence, or even A2 'Restricted' licence?

Category A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

This is probably the one you are most interested in.... and are likely to be rather frustrated with complicated and half answers... sorry, that's the way it is! Lets see if I can make it reasonably clear though.

When I was 19 years old, 47bhp was nothing to be sneezed at and a 'respectable' amount of power for an 'every-day' useable sports bike, that had to get you too and from work, do the shopping, pick up the girlfriend and still be a bit of fun on the week-end. Its enough to make a motorcycle genuinely capable of a comfortable 110mph; that may only be as 'fast' as a hum-drum modern every day people-mover; BUT, its also still fast enough to loose your newly acquired licence readily enough! And its performance you can use very easily, in a motorbike which can exploit its power to weight ratio for very-high-performance car beating acceleration, as well as its manoeuvrability to keep up a higher average speed, hustling along a twisty road or through snarled traffic.

Its not amazing, but it is still as much as most of us are ever going to really 'need' from a road vehicle, and its a 'reasonable' performance level for a new rider to build up their experience with. In fact, its actually quite a GOOD set of limitations, steering newer riders towards bike that don't deliver instant thrills, without the skills... but steers you towards bikes that as a new rider will encourage you to progress and progress more easily from new rider to experienced rider, learning how bikes behave and how to get the best out of them, that will stand you in good stead for more interesting machines, both gaining the skill to use them, as well as the experience to appreciate them.

So, talking generalities, of what sort of bikes you could have, well, probably easier to bound that with what you almost certainly cant have! The basic limitations are as follows:-

you may ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 46.5bhp.)

does not not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg.

is not restricted from a 'standard' model developing more than twice the power required for 'restriction'

It's suspected that there may be a few more motorcycles made to meet the A2 licence regulations, 'as standard', and if a bike has a quoted power-output less than 47bhp chances are it is.

At the moment though, if you go through the buyers guides looking for what may or may not be A2 compliant, its a bit depressing. You have ancient 250's from the days when they were Learner-Legal, before 1982, and a rather meagre selection of generally unloved and frequently sore-used 200-400cc 'commuter-bikes' like the Honda CD200 or Honda CB 'Two-Fifty', the Kawasaki GPz305, and some 250 Cruisers, frequently all in the bargain basement of the market; then something of a 'gap' where you would expect to find more inspiring or more tidy machines in the mid-range used market, until you get to brand new, and 'new' used, bikes, up to around five years old, usually commanding rather strong prices for what the bikes are. This includes machines like the Honda CBR250 and the Kawasaki 250 Ninja, and possibly the rare Yamaha YBR250, that were conceived for this licence group when introduced in other euro regions.

Probably the most common A2-Complient as standard bikes is in the area of on-off road machines. Here smaller displacements, fewer cylinders and lower power-outputs are positive benefits to make a light-weight machine for use on unmade surfaces, and I have to say, that if I was 19 again and on a restricted licence, faced with restrictions that seriously discourage a more sporting road-based motorcycle; idea of utilising what performance an A2 licence allows for some off road adventure would be rather more inspiring than the mundanety of a Honda CB Two-Fifty or the frustration of a sports-bike with its interesting bits removed! However, with 'dirt-bikes' while power output is less likely to exceed limits, you do need to pay heed to the weight, as they can easily exceed the power to weight limits, even at quite modest power outputs!

Which brings us to the matter of restriction, and if you don't want or cant find a suitable A2-Complient as standard machine, what could you 'restrict' to BE A2 compliant?

If you like sports-bikes, I'm afraid it doesn't look good!

As a rough reckoner, count the features below.

Engine over 600cc

Engine with more than two cylinders

Engine with water-cooling

Sports-Fairing

Made this Millennium

More than one front brake disc

If you answer 'Yes' to more than three out of the five, the chances are its NOT restrictable!

Working it out is pretty complicated, BUT, basically anything over 93bhp cant possibly be made A2 Compliant, because its over 2x the 47bhp maximum restricted power limit, and you cant restrict a bike by more than half its 'standard' quoted power output.

This then disqualifies almost all modern 'Super-Sports' bikes, from 600cc up. Bikes like the Kawasaki ZX6R 'Ninja' were developing 100bhp as early as 1997, so you are probably going to struggle to find a 600-Sports under the restrict able 93bhp limit, that's been made this century... and even if you did.... you still have to worry about the power to weight limits.... and with bikes like the R6 tipping the scales at a fly-weight 160Kg or so, they would have to be restricted to about 32Kw to be compliant with the 0.2Kw per Kg minimum power to weight limit; ie even less than the 35Kw allowed, and an even bigger proportion of their original standard power out-put.

If a 600-Super-Sports of this millennium wont restrict to A2 compliance, then there is little chance that a litre-Super-Sport will either, so you can take them off the list too.

What about the 400's? Oh yes. NOT a category of machines I am particularly fond of, and few are still in current or even recent manufacturers catalogues. The 'sports 400's are to all extents and purposes 'regulation beating' 600's from the late 80's and early 90's. Japanese domestic licence and taxation regulations was really the only reason they were built, because on their home market, buyers could not have a 600 or bigger machine very easily, and costing as much to manufacture as a full 600, they were often more expensive than their bigger stable mates. A lot were brought in to the UK second hand from Japan in the 1990's to meet demand for second hand middle-weight sports bikes that were in short supply and had strong prices and were sold as a 'Poor-Mans' substitute for the 600's, and consequently often did not get well treated.

Older and smaller in displacement, typical 'standard' power figures for these bikes is in the 50-60bhp range. This is within that which might reasonably be restricted, though they may have to be restricted beneath maximum permissible 47bhp to meet the power to weight limits.

IF 'Modern' Sports-Bikes are your 'bag'; then you are likely to have to accept one of the more 'sporty style' commuters, such as a Honda CBR250, or the Kawasaki 250 Ninja. These machines have been designed expressly it seems for this licence category, and while they probably wont set the world on fire with their statistics, they are a pretty good choice for a new-rider. They have the sporty styling, and as much power as the licence category allows, which can be more than three times that allowed on a 125-Only licence or L-Plates... its certainly enough to be useful and entertaining. It may be a little disappointing that they don't have the 'awesome' performance statistics of the real-deal four-cylinder sports-bikes... but they also don't tend to have the running costs, or compromises to JUST be fast round a race track.

So we have taken most four-cylinder sports bikes out of the frame, and significantly 600+cc sports. If you go back to Kawasaki's 1984 GPz900R, that made over 110bhp, its twice the restriction limit, its a non starter. The 1984 GPz600R that launched the class, that quotes 75bhp & 217Kg... hard to imagine now that we considered this 'light' and 'powerful' when it was new! But anyway. Those numbers make the bike just about restrictable. 75bhp is about 53Kw. You'd have to clip 18Kw off the top or restrict by about 30% of quoted power to get it inside limits, but you wouldn't have to over-restrict it to meet the power-to-weight limit, that starts to effect machines if over 175Kg. Yamaha's FZ750 of 1985? Nope.209Kg, it would be OK on power-to-weight, but at 105bhp, over 2x original power rule. So going back into the 'Modern classics'; Some very early 600 Sports might restrict. But 750's are probably not going to, and litre class bikes almost certainly not.

Go back a bit further, we get back to the old 'Muscle-Bikes' of the late 70's and early 80's... 'real' classics... which may appeal, but, with even the 1980 Honda CB900 making 95bhp, Kawasaki's big Zeds even more... they aren't going to be on the cards either.

So, going forwards again, we start looking at 'standard' bikes, street-bikes, 'retro' bikes or 'naked' class machines. Looking for one to bench-mark from, Yamaha's long running XJ900, leaps out, and again, a 95bhp power output suggests that even that is probably going to be on the limit of what might be restricted.

Tourers? Again, Honda ST1100 Pan-European was designed to be 100bhp Euro compliant, when some countries has a 100bhp maximum power limit. Its NOT looking good for big displacement bikes, or four cylinder machines in general.

Four cylinder bikes that could be restricted, like the popular Suzuki 600 Bandit, or Yamaha XJ600 Diversion, that develop around 70bhp or so, are probably restrict able, but going back again into the classics, even a 1977 Honda CB550, developed 50bhp and would need 'some' restriction. More modern 'Naked' 600's like the Honda CB600 'Hornet' develop over 100bhp, so like sports 600's not on the menu.

This leaves the most likely machines to be single or twin cylinder machines; motorcycles like the long-running Kawasaki GPz500s, its 'naked' stable mate the ER5, Suzukis' popular sporty-twin SV650 and more utilitarian GS500 stable-mate, and the Honda CB500, that have all been 'popular' choices for restriction to the 'old' 25Kw / 33bhp licence limits, and would be even 'better' restricted less to meet A2 licence limitations.

The Kawasaki GPz500s is one of the longest running in this company, launched in 1987 to popular acclaim, with a quoted power output of 60bhp. The less sophisticated Suzuki GS500 has usually been the least powerful of the selection, though quoted power has varied over the model years, around the 50bhp mark, so most probably needing a bit of restriction to meet A2 limits.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

Its an unrestricted Ride What you like licence. That means, you can PRETTY MUCH 'Ride what you like'! Almost any bike is game. Pick as much as your balls or bank-balance can stand!

DOESN'T mean that picking the most awesome Sports-Bike you can afford, however is a GOOD IDEA!

It increases your choices; BUT, take the hint. The A2 licence category was introduced expressly to discourage people from leaping straight onto high-performance motorcycles with little experience or appreciation of them, and getting 'all the thrills, without the skills, until it kills'. Biggest death-rate on the roads, is amongst sub 3 year DAS obtained full licence holders. Who think that because the DSA say they 'can' ride what they like, take that to mean that they CAN ride what they like! As though the qualification, means they must have the 'skill'!

And 'trouble' with a lot of modern machinery is that it is SO easy to ride. And sports-bikes in particular. Often suggested that a New Rider on something like an R6 'Will Kill Himself'. The unfortunate thing about these bikes though is they often don't! Very focused on doing one thing, they do that one thing incredibly well, and that one thing is "FAST". Its about all that kind of bike do. They aren't wonderfully comfy, sticking a pillion on the back ruins the balance, and they are cramped enough without trying to strap luggage to them. Its ALL they do. FAST. And they make it EASY. The new rider doesn't have to be a good rider, and doesn't have to work to do 'fast', and the bikes are so incredibly capable they will tolerate an awful lot of clumsiness and lack of precision and deliver a LOT of fast. And its the only sensation of reward you get from riding one.... going blindingly fast, so to get more of it, riders ride faster, and faster and faster, and get to BELIEVE that they are some sort of riding godd, because they are seeing super-stupid speeds on the dial from the bike, and are still alive to tell the tale, ergo the bike that every-one said would kill them, HASN'T..... and that must mean that they are some sort of virtuoso, who has the natural talent and ability to have "mastered the beast"..... accidents happen when confidence out-balances competence.

If they are lucky, the typical DAS qualifying rider, will be a fair-weather leisure rider, and riding few miles on a few sunny days a year, will limit their exposure to risk long enough that they survive to get some better experience, or their new found enthusiasm will fade, fairly fast and within a season or three, they have found other things to thrill them, and move on to something else.

BUT there are FAR too many 'unlucky ones' who often truly believe that they are good and sensible riders, have 'all the gear' and use it 'all the time' and that what they are doing is merely a 'little spirited' riding, not being an utter loonatic.

So if you have some sense, while you MAY be allowed to ride anything you like, as a new rider, respect the fact that you are still an early-learner until you have between three and five years good experience behind you, and more 'boring' bikes, can be a lot more rewarding to ride. Look at what you might ride on an A2 licence, and think hard about what you can really live with. Plenty of bikes that could be restricted to A2 are good friendly useful every-day machines, and as said, sort of bikes IF we were honest that offer 'as much' performance as we ever really 'need'. And on a full A or A3 licence, you merely have the luxury of not having to jump through hoops with insurance companies or any-one trying to get the bike restricted or proving its restricted, and MAY have that 'bit' extra available.

And 'less' can be more. I find modern super-sports bikes incredibly unrewarding to ride. All they do is 'fast', and they don't demand any effort from me as a rider to deliver it. Less capable, more all-round versatile machines, do more. I can stick a passenger on the back, and go places.... in some comfort! I can load it up with luggage and camping kit to do a week-end rally, without having to be a contortionist, or worrying about squeezing stuff into tiny bags or having to wear a ruck-sack. I can ride round town without getting a crick in my neck; AND I can indulge in a little spirited riding down a nice country road..... and experience 'fast'... at less licence threatening velocities, get a lot more riding 'sensation' from a less capable bike being pushed closer to the ragged edge, and a lot more reward and satisfaction having to work for it. All up, it delivers a HECK of a lot more all-round 'Fun'... and for a new rider, you get all that extra 'fun' and the fun of learning.

so while you might be allowed 'Any-Bike'... still good reason to choose something that's more newby-freindly. Learning don't stop when you loose the L-Plates! I've been at it thirty odd years, and I'm STILL learning stuff.

Is Formal Training REALLY worth the money?

YES!

Cost is immaterial. Passing tests a secondary consideration.

How much are you spending on a bike? Jacket? Hat? Any other biking related paraphernalia?

How long do you expect them to last? How much 'Value' do you expect to get from them?

Is £140 for the aural sensation of an after market exhaust pipe that de-values your motorcycle, and increases insurance premiums 'good-value' in your scheme of things?
Is a Dyno-Jet or Power-Commander kit that finds you an extra 4bhp, a worth while investment?
Crash helmet, maybe £100-£400's worth is good for ONE crash.
Set of leathers? £500's worth? Maybe two crashes worth of protection.

Race Can & power commander? 4bhp, maybe an extra 10mph more top end speed and a bit more acceleration if you are lucky.... few seconds of typical journey times. ONLY works as long as you have THAT one bike its fitted to.

TRAINING....

Well, it makes you a BETTER rider, doesn't it.

Old adage at the track. Want this bike to go faster? Fit a better rider. Better rider goes faster, crashes less.

TRAINING makes you a better rider; all well and good having the first lesson of CBT and a bike, but without any more lessons to TEACH you anything more than the VERY basics covered in NOT a lot of depth in CBT, you can 'practice' to your hearts content, and all you will do is practice the basics or learn by making painful and costly mistakes.

Lessons; Well, you cant touch taste, smell or show off lessons, can you? Don't have anything physical to show for your money... and it seems a lot of dosh for not a lot of 'err, well what do you get? Words? & Talks cheap innit?

WRONG; you get WISDOM

Wisdom that tells you what to do RIGHT, right at the beginning, so you DON'T have to learn by falling off....

Wisdom that gives you stuff to practice and get right, early on.

Wisdom that will make you a BETTER RIDER....

A Rider that not ONLY can pass a riding test, but who will ride SAFER.... and NOT crash and NEED that fancy hat.... that's value you CANNOT put a price on!

A Rider who being safer and more highly skilled can manage their bike and get more speed out of it, WITHOUT bolt on extras.....

And THAT value goes onto every bike you will EVER ride

Gets better with experience, never looses value, never takes value off your bike, never puts your insurance prices up.....

Now, go away and look at all the fancy biking 'Stuff' you COULD buy with the money you might hope to save, by NOT having any lessons, and ask yourself IS this really 'good' value for money?

TRAINING IS FOR LIFE

What Training do I need before I take the tests?

NEED? Well, legally you don't 'NEED' any! (beyond CBT) But see above! Its damned useful stuff, and ideally passing tests should be a by-product of training to become a safe competent rider, NOT the goal!

the 'Ideal' way to train, in my opinion, is on your own (learner-Legal) bike. You do your CBT, then as SOON as you are ready to start out on the road on your own, you book some weekly lessons. Schools vary in what they will offer, but two hours a week, is about right.

Starting RIGHT at the start, you learn how to do it RIGHT. Saves learning by your own mistakes, which can be expensive and painful, why its called 'The School of Hard-Knocks!'. and saves you getting into bad-habits.

You do your CBT, ride for a week, have a lesson. Instructor checks your riding, picks up on any mistakes & corrects them, then gives you something 'new' to learn, gives you a chance to get the idea, then sends you home, and you have a whole week, where you can practice this to your hearts content and get it 'nailed'. Following week, you go back, instructor checks your riding, picks up on any mistakes & corrects them, sends you home with something ELSE to practice.

You learn in stages, with plenty of time to master what you are taught. You can learn at your own rate, and it ought to be pretty efficient, because you aren't letting bad habits or problems perpetuate, they are being picked up as you go along and corrected.

On such a course, a 'typical' newbie, could quite easily get to test standard in perhaps, six or eight weeks. Month and a half, two months, and be trained not just to test standard, but with experience gained while being 'mentored', be pretty well 'prepared' for post test riding.

I always say; every HOURS training, in the first month of riding is worth a DAY after a years riding. Many new riders do leave it THAT long by the time they get round to doing any post CBT training, and its often realisation that their CBT cert is about to expire that prompts them to 'cram'; and its often difficult, because they have got used to doing stuff their own way, and it can be three times as hard to get them to ride to the book, when they have never learned the 'right stuff' and their unsupervised L-Plate experience as often has NOT been good, and they have a LOT of bad habits, and often fears of doing stuff, learned from falling off or nearly falling off, when they have had no guidance.

But ultimately, it's a piece of string question, and as mentioned above in comment on What's CBT and below in 'is it any easier'; we ALL learn at different rates, and we start off with some pre-dispositions that might make it easier, others that can make it harder. So I cant say.

BUT, get some training booked, and your instructor should be able to judge to SOME degree how much work you need and where, to give better ideas.

From a standing start though, 16-20 hours of tuition is a good reckoner. , following my ideal model of weekly lessons, that's USUALLY enough to cover a lot of ground and lay down a pretty good foundation skill-set. People doing Intensive DAS courses, can often go from a standing start to getting a licence in that amount of training, though see below, I don't recommend 'Crash-Courses', and candidates will rarely get as MUCH preparation, for their money.

BUT, training to test standard is ONLY the beginning. Once you have that solid foundation skill-s
____________________
21:41:40 petalbriefs: look phil, I dont preach to you about bowling pins or whatever, so you stick to that and I'll stick to cars
21:38:18 Northern Monkey: chav lives in the garage with an almax on it
21:34:54 rhys99: My train got stuck in heavy traffic

[lihp]

It is NOT a riding qualification; it doesn't mean you have 'earned' your 'learner-licence', it doesn't mean you are a competent rider, and it does NOT teach you 'everything' you may need to know to be able to pass the actual licence tests!

At the end of it, IF you have reached a 'satisfactory' (very low!) standard of competence throughout the course, you are awarded your DL196, or CBT (Completion) Certificate, that validates the provisional entitlement of your licence, that lets you START riding on the roads, unsupervised, on a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle, for up to two years.

I go into a lot more about CBT & what you do, and how it is organised, in Tell me more about CBT?, so keeping it brief, here. The Course is designed so that an average student ought to be able to complete the course in a day, and be able to start riding, RELATIVELY safely. (Though depending on how much you have to learn, and how long it takes to master the exercises, SOME students may have to come back for 'further' training. They do NOT 'fail' CBT, they merely do not 'complete' the course to satisfactory standard)

IT'S YOUR FIRST LESSON

As such, before you invest ANY money in a bike, or gear, or 'anything', its a very good way to have a go, and see if you actually LIKE riding a bike. It ISN'T something for every-one, and some people struggle, and decide after that biking really isn't for them. Though, MOST I have to say, usually leave their CBT fired with enthusiasm and even more eager than when they started.

IT'S NOT A TEST

So, you DO NOT have to practice for it; you do NOT have to do ANYTHING much before hand; just turn up and do, and if you have any questions; ASK THEM! That is what the course is for. It is your introduction to biking.

Its a Day-Out, doing a new thing. When you book, you ought to be given some advice on what you'll need. Some schools will provide pretty much everything; bike, helmet, gloves, water-proofs. Some even offer lunch! However, 'School' rider-wear is often not that err... 'nice'... and most people prefer to buy and bring their own 'kit' before hand. Again, I offer advice on this in Tell me more about CBT?, but potted version is talk to the school, ASK what you should bring. Probably, "Crash-Helmet, Gloves, Lunch, Common sense, and wear 'sensible' out-door clothing, and check the weather forecast before you dress!

CBT is to help you get a bit clued up, and we TRY and make it fun. So DON'T worry about it. Its just a day out, playing with motorbikes. Your first lesson; You don't NEED to know anything about them before you begin, and it WONT make you an expert in a day, but it will give you a good start.

DO I Have to Do CBT?

YES!

OK, actually, there are a few exceptions. BUT WHAT THE HECK! If you have to ask, then YES YOU DO!

Generally ANY new rider will have to complete a CBT course to gain their DL196 form, to validate the entitlement of their provisional licence to ride on the road.

If you check the Directgov website; there are some confusing exceptions and exemptions; some drivers have exemptions under what are known as 'Granddad-Rights' because they gained provisional entitlement before CBT was 'invented' (circa 1990 ISTR). There is a raft of convolutions around moped licences for car licence holders that get quite confusing too.

BUT, ultimately, if you want to ride a powered-two-wheeler.. that's instructor speak for a moped, motorbike or scooter, by the way, on the roads... JUST do the ruddy course!

If you DON'T by dint of one of these wonderful 'exemptions' ACTUALLY need the Certificate? Well, what the heck. Damn site better to have the form and NOT need it, than have to argue about it with some half clued up beurocrat that expects to see it!

Meanwhile JUST for the sake of; the course IS a good start, and it WILL teach you something, and that 'something' could just be the one thing that saves your life, OR points on your licence, OR a painful and or expensive accident!

I used to teach CBT courses, I ought to 'Know it all' you would hope! Well, I sat in on my Girlfreind's CBT course last year, and it wasn't SUCH a vital detail, but I picked up some hints and tips on motorcycle maintenance, an easier way to do something, and some suggestions about looking after my crash-helmet and avoiding 'glare' on the visor. We can ALL learn something new!

Its a VERY worth-While course, for ANY-ONE starting out riding a motorbike, or coming back to riding one after some years break.

So JUST 'do-It'!

I don't see the point in getting a licence; why should I bother?

The Provisional Licence Validated by CBT is NOT a 'Licence-to-Ride' its a 'learner's permit', a chance to get some practice so you can take the tests and get the 'Proper' Licence.

Every OTHER motorised road-user HAS to pass their tests BEFORE they are allowed on the road, unsupervised. Fact that motorcycles are the exception is actually rather bizarre, given that motorcycles are the mort dangerous form of motorised transport, and unsupervised L-Platers the MOST likely to crash!

The FULL Motorcycle Licence is your PASSPORT to ALL biking has to offer & ONCE you have it, you have it for LIFE!

Well, with the qualification, that during the first two years, under the new drivers act, you don't get it revoked, or after that, suspended by being an arse! Other than that; once you have the entitlement its ON your licence as long as you hold it. JOB DONE. And....

it is a FULL Licence, NOT a 'Big-Bike' Licence!

No-One is going to take it off you, if you don't go out and buy a bike over 200cc within six months of getting it or anything! You can ride a 'Small' bike on a Full-Licence same as you can a big one!

And, OK, you may have a hundred and one reasons NOT to think it's IMPORTANT enough to do as LONG as you can get out and ride a 125 on L-Plates without it, WHY bother? Just keep repeating CBT every two years.

I have heard EVERY single excuse for 'perpetual L-Plating' from perpetual L-Platers they can think of, and there is NO real valid reason for it. End of the day, boils down to Laziness, and ignorance. Or possibly JUST laziness, not being bothered to go find out the facts!

BUT, Lets hear a few of them out?

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?
I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?
I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for the miles I do!
I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'
Yeah! an ALL to common attitude, amongst scooter riders. You buy a scooter because its CHEAP, so why spend money you DON'T have to! Tests cost money, and if you can get to work without them, why buy'em? Same with riding as a stop-gap until affording a car, and the more bizarre notion of a 'cheap' week-end 'Toy' bike. Almost all of them MONEY is a big part of the argument.

Well, IF you can afford to ride a bike, ANY bike, you can bludy well afford to take the sodding tests, mate!

The tests cost a mere £121.50 (as 2012) over and above CBT to let you wobble about an UNQUALIFIED hazard on the roads. Elsewhere I go into the costs of getting on the road, and if you can get a Learner-Legal Motorcycle, taxed, tested and road-worthy, afford to buy a helmet, insurance, and stick petrol in the ruddy thing, you will be doing damn well, to do so for under £1000. More realistically you will be looking at having to spend, £1500 - £2500 'all in'. £121.50 in THAT greater scheme of stuff is PEANUTS. And if you cant budget THAT right at the start, DON'T BOTHER even trying!

If you don't pass the bike tests within the first two years provided by your first CBT certificate? Well, you will have to repeat the CBT to extend your licence entitlement to carry on riding. THAT can be as expensive as simply doing the tests!

But WHY would you NOT take the tests? Either you are too lazy OR you don't think you are good enough to pass.

If you don't think you are good-enough to pass, WHAT THE FRIGG are you doing on the road?!?!?!?

Tests are there to set a basic level of competence, if you haven't got that, then you shouldn't be there. You are a DANGER to yourself and others!

Many DO seem to think that the tests are 'Very-Hard', but really, what they are asking you to show them is that you can ride around a few cones without falling over, and can ride on the road, in real traffic for forty minutes, not break any laws, or hurt any-one! If you are riding to and from work or college every day, you are PROBABLY already doing 90% of what they expect!

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?

See: I Only want a 'little' bike, It's not THAT dangerous, is it? Its NOT like I'm jumping straight on a loonie-big-bike!. You are not 'protected' in anyway, pretending to be a learner, riding a lightweight. Its JUST as dangerous, AND your economic argument's DO NOT hold water.

Repeating CBT every two years, is as expensive as doing the tests.

The Idea that a 'Learner-Legal' HAS to be 'Cheap' is also a fallacy. Yes they CAN return very good mpg, BUT; the actual bike is a LOT more expensive than it needs be JUST because it's learner legal. With a FULL licence you have access to the whole panoply of motorcycles, and where you will struggle to find a 'good' Learner-Legal for under £1000, you can get any number of VERY good bigger bikes for the same money.

BUT, for the super-tight economy-commuter, there is a very big 'bargain basement' of machines in the 'forgotten' capacity class from 150cc to 400cc; machines that often have hardly any more performance than a Learner-Legal, but only Full-Licence holders, most of whom having qualification to have a much more interesting machine, simply DON'T WANT!

These bikes, are often half the price or LESS than a similar 'Learner-Legal' machine, AND frequently an AWFUL lot less to insure. They cost no more to run, and frequently return as good mpg, sometimes even better.

So, idea that staying on L-Plates is saving you money is a fallacy. IF you wanted super-cheap wheels, the FULL-LICENCE, Is the pass-port NOT just to bigger, more powerful and more exiting motorcycles, but to ones that can save you EVEN more money.

I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?

So TAKE the ruddy tests and EARN your road-space like any-one else then! As the Scooter-Commuter; you aren't saving any money wobbling about on L-Plates. Use some of that 'saving' you are making to get the ruddy tests! Its just LAZINESS not bothering, and laziness on a bike is NOT a good way to survive.

I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

So? Why do you THINK that because you're re over 21 you HAVE do 'Do-DAS'? MORE why do you think that to 'Do-DAS' you HAVE to spend some ridiculous amount of money on an 'Intensive DAS' Course?

This is shear ignorance. You DO NOT have to do a DAS course just because you are over 21. Go read the sections: What is 'DAS'? & Intensive DAS Courses' What's the score?

I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for miles I do!

If you have a 'Full-Power' sports 125, you DON'T have a licence to ride the frigging thing to start with!

The Provisional Licence allows you to ride a bike up to 125cc and 14.5bhp. A Full-Power 'Sports' 125 probably makes something like 25bhp (though undoubtedly you will be convinced it HAS to make 33), and riding one, without a Full-Licence is NO DIFFERENT to riding a 250, or 400, 600 or 1000, you equally DON'T have the entitlement to ride!

It is NOT some bit of criminal 'genius'; it's not what 'every-one' does. Its not 'all part of biking', its certainly not 'expected'.

IT IS ILLEGAL

Got insurance on it? Well, implying that it is learner legal when it isn't, is insurance fraud. You are breaking MORE laws riding a 'cheat' 125 as you would be riding an R6 or whatever you really want, also without Licence or Insurance.....

If you are happy to break these laws, for the sake of the few pennies you probably aren't saving, given that Sports 125's often cost MORE to run than 600's or 750's..... Well, MORE fools logic. You may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, WHY bother, for the sake of maybe 10-15mph more illegal speed! These bikes may be impressive compared to a 65mph commuter 125, but compared to a 160mph 600? They are STILL not 'quick' or impressive machines to ANY-ONe who knows what they are looking at!

GET THE LICENCE and you can ride that 125 LEGALLY, you could ride the bike you REALLY WANT, LEGALLY, and it will probably be 'Cheaper'! If not, certainly be other bikes that will be!

THE EXCUSES KEEP COMING - But the answer always remains the same. If you want to ride a motorbike, then GET A LICENCE!

All of the excuses get blown away eventually, and it boils down to laziness and ignorance. Its not saving you anything, and the 'Learner-Restrictions' are ENTIRELY self imposed.

If you are OLD ENOUGH to ride a motorbike, if you can AFFORD to ride a motorbike; you are old enough and rich enough to take the tests and have ANY bike you want and can afford, NOT merely a Learner-Legal!

ALL for the sake of taking the tests and getting the PROPER licence.

The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

To gain a FULL moped or motorcycle licence, there are three tests.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception

Module 1 'Off-Road' practical test

Module 2 'On-Road' practical test.

These tests are conducted by the Driving Standards Agency, not the school you did CBT with. But the School may offer training to help you pass them.

As from January 19th 2013, there are three 'test schemes'; one for each category of motorcycle licence entitlement, to be applied to the two practical tests, Mod 1 & Mod 2. Plus one for moped entitlement. (Both Practical Tests Mods1 & Mod 2 must be taken on the same class of motorcycle.)

Category AM = Moped

You must be at least 16 years to ride a moped, and to take the full moped licence tests.

You may, upon completion of CBT ride a moped on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the legal specifications of a 'Moped' (see:- What is a Moped?), briefly a 50cc motorcycle, that says 'Moped' on the Registration document! It may be any style of powered two wheeler, like a scooter or a sports-bike, it may be twist & go automatic or have gears; but it must be less than 50cc and not be capable of more than about 35mph.

Both tests must be taken, as for the motorcycle test, and The tests are identical to the motorcycle tests, though allowances are made for the lower performance of the vehicle; eg during the Mod 1 exercises, that normally require a serve and e-stop manoeuvre above proscribed speeds that a moped would not be expected to achieve.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category P licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a moped, which must still conform to moped power, speed and weight restrictions. But without L-Plates and you may carry pillion passengers. Note:- Mopeds may NOT use motorways, irrespective of whether the rider has a full licence of any category. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)



Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

You must be at least 17 years to ride an A1 category 'Light Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A1 test scheme.

You may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle ( see:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?), Briefly a machine up to 125cc, with no more than 11Kw/14.5bhp power, but with minimum performance requirements for test; the machine must be over 120cc capacity and capable of 62mph. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A1 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of the same performance specification as is 'Learner-Legal' essentially still an 11Kw/14.5bhp 125cc machine, but without L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Catagory A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

You must be at least 19 years to ride an A2 category 'Middleweight Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A2 test scheme.

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for higher groups (A2 or A3/Full A)

However, you MAY ride a machine compliant with A2 restrictions, on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle. of at least 395cc with a power output between 25 and 35 kW (33bhp and 46.6 bhp). No upper engine size limit, but the power to weight ratio must not exceed 0.2kW/kg and it must not be derived from a motorcycle of more than double its power. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A2 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 47bhp.) And may not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg. The machine may be restricted from a model that manufacturers standard specifications claims more than 35Kw, but the standard model may not male more than 2 times the power required for restriction. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, and Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with A2 entitlement, if not already held.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

You must be at least 24 years to ride an unrestricted A category Motorcycle and to take motorcycle tests under the A3 / DAS test scheme. OR you must have held an A2 category licence for a minimum of 2 years. (So, if you pass A2 tests when you are 19-21, you can test again for DAS before you are 24, as long as you have held A2 at least 2 years)

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for that group.

However, you MAY ride any machine on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle over 595cc with a power output of at least 40kw or (53.6bhp). From the end of 2013 the power output will change to at least 50 kW. A minimum weight of 180 kg will also apply. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category A / A3 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity or engine power output. This does not necessarily mean that you have to, or that it is a good idea, to jump on the biggest, fastest piece of machinery you can find! (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, and Category A2 (33Kw or 47bhp 'restricted motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with full A / A3 entitlement, if not already held.

Automatic Transmission Restrictions

Pretty simple; you may test under any of the above test schemes, on a qualifying bike or scooter. Doesn't matter if it has a manual gear-box, or an automatic transmission, provided it meets other test requirements of engine displacement etc.

However IF you choose to use a machine that has an Automatic Transmission, for your tests, then again, you must use an auto for both Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests, AND if you pass both tests, your licence entitlement will be 'endorsed' with a restriction "Automatics Only", and you may NOT ride a geared machine.

Worth noting; The popular Honda C90 'Step-Through' commuter bike, has a three speed 'crunch' gear-box, and an automatic centrifugal clutch like a twist-and-go, and a number of contemporary motorcycles have engines derived from the old C90 motor, and retain the centrifugal clutch. Many now have a four speed gearbox, and have been bored out to a full A2 complient 125cc. The Honda Inova, is basically the successor to the C90 and has the 125cc 4-speed centrifugal clutch engine; but that engine & transmission is also used in many monkey-bikes, and pit-bikes, which are all A2 test compliant, if road-legal. However without a 'manual-clutch', a little digging with the DSA has revealed they are classed as 'Semi-Automatic' and hence testing on one will gain Auto-Only restriction, the same as testing on a twist & go. Bit of a pity that, as they DO have gears, but still.

When I gained my licence back in 1992, there was only one test scheme; you took the test on any 'learner-legal' motorcycle, up to 125cc that wasn't a moped, and you gained, straight away, a full unrestricted, ride what you like licence. They changed that, and until this year, you had to use a bike between 120 & 125cc, and do all three tests; and if you passed you got a restricted licence, that limited you to 33bhp machines for two years. But either way, it WAS possible to take tests on a 'Twist & Go' Automatic scooter, and gain a Full unrestricted ride what you like motorcycle licence with Auto-Only restriction... which was nie on useless; as there are almost NO automatic motorcycles over 125cc!

Actually, I can name, err... four. All built briefly in the 1970's and failing to gain market acceptance, any survivors probably hoarded 'collectors' items living on plinths in museums! The Moto-Guzzi 1000cc 'Convert'; The Honda CB750 'Four' Auto and the Honda CB400 'Auto', and a Hausquavana 500 two stroke Enduro bike!

So if you wanted a motorbike, an Auto-Only licence was significantly useless, and limited you to basically riding twist and go Learner-Legal scooters. And significantly, probably still does.

However, the popularity of the scooter has been rising in the last decade, seeing the genre creep out of the sub 125cc learner-legal bracket, back into the 250 class that some used to occupy back in the 'Mods & Rockers' era, and beyond, with the innovation of the 'Super-Scooter' that can be as big as a large motorcycle and have an engine as big as I believe 800cc these days, but still with a twist and go automatic transmission.

There are a few modern motorcycles with sophisticated 'automated' and usually selectable transmissions. Mostly from Honda. Electronically controlled, the ratio's shifted mechanically by electronic servos controlled by a micro-processor, the gears may be selected entirely by the micro-processor in a 'fully-auto' mode, or manually by the rider, in 'manual' mode, either by switches on a gear lever that mimic a traditional mechanical gear linkage, or by hand operated push-buttons. Strictly, I believe that these are classed as having a 'manual' transmission, and to be able to ride one on a licence with Auto-Only restriction would require any 'manual' mode to be disabled.... but I think that this remains something of a grey area, and an area of uncertainty for all concerned.

More conventionally, the Auto-Only restriction essentially limits riders to twist and go scooters, or whatever capacity licence entitlement provides; though with few 600+cc super scooters; gaining a Full Unrestricted A licence with Auto-Only restriction remains very unlikely. It may be possible to gain an A2 class licence on a 400-500cc super-scooter, and it would seem that manufacturers are designing more recent models to meet this licence requirement, and this may become more popular. But it remains that the Auto-Only restriction will probably remain most common for people riding A2 compliant Learner-Legal scooters.

The new three category licence system, does however raise a couple of questions with regard to auto-only restrictions. Mainly, if you take tests for one category on a geared machine, and another on an auto... what happens?

Well, up until now, if you took your Moped test and gained moped entitlement on a twist & go moped, you would have got the Auto-Only restriction against the entitlement. If you then took your motorcycle tests on a geared 125 or DAS bike, that would provide moped entitlement without automatic only restriction, so it should have been lifted form the licence, passing test at a higher category level superseding the lower entitlement. this 'precedent' I believe remains.

So, if you take, say the A1 test on a 125cc 'Twist & Go' scooter, and wish to take the A2 or A3 tests and do so on a geared bike, then you would gain A2 or A3 entitlement without Auto-Restriction, lifting that restriction from A1 entitlement.

However, what if you took your A1 licence test on a geared 125 and then took the A2 on a twist & go super-scooter?

Well, if you have gained a licence entitlement, then they cant really take it off you again, or impose a restriction on it. So if you had A1 entitlement without Auto-Only restriction, that would remain. BUT the auto-only restriction would be endorsed along side the higher group; so you would still be able to ride a geared 125, but anything bigger, would have to be an Auto to remain within the entitlements of your licence.

It is 'Best' if you can, to test on a geared machine. You can ride an auto on a licence without auto-only restriction, but you cant ride a geared bike on one with!

One amusing anomaly to ponder though; IF you took your A1 test on a twist and go 125 scooter; you would gain full A1 licence entitlement, but with Auto-Only restriction. And could then, obviousely ride a twist and go 125 without displaying L-'s and could carry a pillion and use a motorway. However, you still have Provisional entitlement provided for 'all other groups', SO you could still ride an A1 125 with gears..... but you would have to put the L-Plates back on, not carry pillions or use motorways! Now THAT is one to confuse your insurance company!

Side-Cars, Three-Wheeler's, Trikes & Quads

I feel I REALLY ought to mention these automotive anomalies..... yeah... there you go, I have. That ought to be enough! No? Well Oh-Kay then, fine.

These are automotive anomalies. Less than 5% of UK Road-Vehicle registrations are 'Motorcycles' or 'Mopeds'. Probably less than 5% of THEM have more than two wheels! This should NOT effect an awful lot of people! AND its such a godawful MESS where even the DVLA and DSA often don't know the answers, I'm sure as heck not able to!

So what I DO know! Well....

You may no longer take a motorcycle test on a motorcycle outfit, three wheeler or trike, unless you have a registered disability that prohibits you riding a solo machine, and any licence entitlement gained will be endorsed with restriction to the type of machine on which you took the tests. Ie if tested on a trike under disability dispensation, you couldn't ride a solo after without retesting.

Beyond that, it starts getting murky.

I believe that you MAY still be able to ride a motorcycle and side car 'outfit', unsupervised, on a provisional motorcycle licence, AND that if you do, the 125cc engine displacement restriction does not apply. You DO have to have a valid CBT certificate though, and the out-fit may NOT have a power to weight ratio higher than that permitted for a Learner-Legal 125 (o.1Kw per Kilo). Also you may NOT carry either a pillion passenger, nor a passenger in the side car. L-Plates must still be displayed, and you may not use motorways. You don't have to be disabled, to ride an outfit on L's, though you do if you want to take tests on it!

Then we are into the mire; because the same applies to trikes, BUT there is a rather impertinent set of questions over reverse gears, and vehicle classifications, dependent on weight and length and such. When is a trike Not a trike? When is a Side-Car outfit not a side car outfit? Even VOSA who's job it is to classify vehicles can struggle with this; DIY constructors of such oddities certainly do! (But I think they often find that half the fun!)

And ultimately, if you are interested in such automotive anathma's.... you have come to the wrong place! Best advice I can give, is if you want to ride a trike or outfit; do your conventional motorcycle tests, get the full motorcycle licence. Then go do the conventional car tests and get the full car licence as WELL, and with a bit of shot-gun marksmanship, you ought to cover the appropriate licence entitlement to ride one!


What Will I need to take to my Tests? How long is each valid for?

OK, Lets run through a Check-list of what you will need to ultimately get a Full-Licence.

A current UK 'Photo-Card' Driving Licence, Full for another group of vehicle, or complete provisional.

A Valid CBT Certificate or DL196 Form (To Validate Provisional Motorcycle Entitlement of Licence)

MOTORCYCLE Theory Test Pass Certificate

Module 1 Test Pass Certificate

Module 2 Test Pass Certificate

Those are the official bits of paper.

CBT-Certificate

I'll deal with CBT in much more detail in:- Tell me more about CBT?. Paperwork wise you don't really need anything apart from your Licence, to do your CBT course. You will however need a motorbike. Most people choose to use a 'school' bike to do their CBT on its easier and simpler. You get a lift to the school and just do what you are told all day, then go home. You MAY choose to do the course on your own machine though, but then you will probably have to provide the documents to show that the machine is legal to be used on the road, and you are insured to do so. Again, I'll deal with these later, Tell me more about CBT?

The CBT Certificate is normally valid for two years from the date of completing the course.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception Exam

You don't need a motorbike or anything to do the Theory/Hazard perception exam. This is a class-room exercise, you do on a computer. And you don't HAVE to have completed and obtained your CBT Certificate before you take the Theory Exam. You will however be required to show your Driving Licence.

It is important to note that there are a number of different Theory/Hazard perception tests for different vehicle groups. For a motorcycle (or Moped) you MUST pass the one specifically for motorcycles. A normal or 'car' Theory/hazard pass certificate will NOT be accepted towards the motorcycle qualification.

The Theory / Hazard Perception Pass Certificate, is Normally Valid for Two Years.

Module 1 'Off-Road' Practical Test

To take the Module 1 'off-road' practical motorcycle test; you will need to show your:-

Provisional-Licence

Validating CBT Certificate

Theory/Hazard Test Pass Certificate.

You will also need a motorcycle, meeting requirements for test scheme you have booked test under. See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

Note: The DSA Do NOT provide you with a motorcycle to take your test on. Nor will they 'hire' one to you.

You are responsible for ensuring you have a suitable vehicle to take the test. This may be your own, or hired, possibly via a training school.

You will be required to sign a declaration that the machine you have provided is road-worthy, and legal for you to ride. You MAY be requested to provide proof of this. For example, if you are using your own motorcycle, you may be asked to show the examiner a valid MOT Certificate. If you are using a School machine, you may be required to show a 'Waiver' provided by the school declaring that they have ensured the machine is roadworthy and legal for you to ride.

You will also be required to wear 'suitable' motorcycle attire. The DSA provide guidelines on what they deem and do not deem suitable motorcycle apparel. This means that apart from the legally required safety helmet, they expect you to be wearing 'sensible' protective footwear and gloves, and sensible out-door clothing that covers exposed flesh on arms and legs. They also suggest auxiliary Hi-Vis belt or bib, and take a dim view of trainers and track-suits, and warn that if the examiner is not convinced you are 'suitably' dressed that he may refuse to conduct test, without refund of test-fee.

Module 1 Test Pass Certificate is normally valid until the SAME date as the Theory / Hazard Perception Pass Certificate, that was in force when it was issued. (Ie: if you pass Mod 1 the day after your Theory/Hazard, its valid for almost two years. If you take it a week before your Theory Hazard is due to expire, its only valid for a week!)

Module 2 'On-Road' Practical Test

To take the Module 2 'on-road' practical motorcycle test; you will need to show your:-

Provisional-Licence

Validating CBT Certificate

Theory/Hazard Test Pass Certificate.

Module 1 Test Pass Certificate

NOTE: BOTH Module 1 And Module 2 tests MUST be taken under the SAME test scheme. (See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions.)

Eg: You cant take Mod 1 test on a Moped and the Mod 2 on a 600+cc DAS bike; nor take Mod 1 on a 500cc A2 machine and Mod 2 on an A1 125!

As Mod 1, you will also need a motorcycle, meeting requirements for test scheme you have booked test under. (See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions) And advice with regards documentation pertaining to it. As the test is conducted on public roads, a Certificate of Insurance is likely to be requested.

DSA guidelines and warnings on suitable apparel, again apply, as with the Module 1 Test.

Module 2 Test Pass Certificate is normally valid until your Full Driving Licence is issued, or re-issued showing the new group entitlement.

What Can I ride When I pass Tests?

See:- The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions. What you will be allowed to ride on public roads after passing tests, will depend on which category of licence entitlement you have obtained, and that will depend on the 'test-scheme' you qualified under, basically what sort of bike you did your tests on.

Category AM = Moped

See:- What is a Moped?. The performance limitations imposed by law for a moped are pretty stringent. And loosely, the vehicle cannot have an engine more than 50cc and cant have a top speed more than about 35mph.

Before taking and passing tests you are allowed to ride a Moped on L-Plates, provided you don't carry a pillion passenger.

After Passing tests, you can remove the L-Plates... and that is about ALL.

Mopeds are not allowed on Motorways, whether you have a full moped licence or not. You may, if you have passed moped tests, carry a pillion, but with maybe only three and a half horse-power, at best, you probably wont want to carry one very far or very often!

Worth Noting, that many people seem to think that if you pass moped tests or gain moped entitlement via passing the car test, you can ride a 'De-Restricted' moped. Unfortunately not. The performance limitations set down in law for a moped are exactly that, and if a powered-two-wheeler can achieve more, either by being 'De-Restricted' or conventionally 'tuned'... then it no longer meets legal requirements to be classed as a moped, and cannot be ridden on moped entitlement. See Also:- What's NOT a moped! and De-Restricted Danger.

See Also: - Is it worth taking tests for a moped licence, 125-Only licence, or even A2 'Restricted' licence?

Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

See:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?. The Capacity & Performance limitations defining an A1 category motorcycle are exactly the same as those for a Learner-Legal motorcycle. Briefly, a machine up to 125cc and less than 11Kw or 14.5bhp, and with a power to weight ratio no higher than 0.1Kw per Kg.

Before taking and passing tests you are allowed to ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on L-Plates, provided you don't carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

After Passing tests, you can remove the L-Plates... Carry a pillion passenger, and if you wish, use Motorways. Otherwise you are limited to bikes you might have ridden before you passed test.

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Again, worth looking at De-Restricted Danger. The A1 licence is often referred to as a "125-Only" licence, and its often presumed that that means you an ride any 125 irrespective of the power or power to weight limits applied to learner legals. It's a presumption that is likely to be re-enforced by inaccurate re-counting of the 'old' licensing system that awarded a 'restricted A' group licence for testing on a 125, that permitted a machine up to 25Kw or 33bhp, a limit into which many 'Full-Power' or de-restricted sports 125's conveniently fell.

See Also: - Is it worth taking tests for a moped licence, 125-Only licence, or even A2 'Restricted' licence?

Category A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

This is probably the one you are most interested in.... and are likely to be rather frustrated with complicated and half answers... sorry, that's the way it is! Lets see if I can make it reasonably clear though.

When I was 19 years old, 47bhp was nothing to be sneezed at and a 'respectable' amount of power for an 'every-day' useable sports bike, that had to get you too and from work, do the shopping, pick up the girlfriend and still be a bit of fun on the week-end. Its enough to make a motorcycle genuinely capable of a comfortable 110mph; that may only be as 'fast' as a hum-drum modern every day people-mover; BUT, its also still fast enough to loose your newly acquired licence readily enough! And its performance you can use very easily, in a motorbike which can exploit its power to weight ratio for very-high-performance car beating acceleration, as well as its manoeuvrability to keep up a higher average speed, hustling along a twisty road or through snarled traffic.

Its not amazing, but it is still as much as most of us are ever going to really 'need' from a road vehicle, and its a 'reasonable' performance level for a new rider to build up their experience with. In fact, its actually quite a GOOD set of limitations, steering newer riders towards bike that don't deliver instant thrills, without the skills... but steers you towards bikes that as a new rider will encourage you to progress and progress more easily from new rider to experienced rider, learning how bikes behave and how to get the best out of them, that will stand you in good stead for more interesting machines, both gaining the skill to use them, as well as the experience to appreciate them.

So, talking generalities, of what sort of bikes you could have, well, probably easier to bound that with what you almost certainly cant have! The basic limitations are as follows:-

you may ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 46.5bhp.)

does not not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg.

is not restricted from a 'standard' model developing more than twice the power required for 'restriction'

It's suspected that there may be a few more motorcycles made to meet the A2 licence regulations, 'as standard', and if a bike has a quoted power-output less than 47bhp chances are it is.

At the moment though, if you go through the buyers guides looking for what may or may not be A2 compliant, its a bit depressing. You have ancient 250's from the days when they were Learner-Legal, before 1982, and a rather meagre selection of generally unloved and frequently sore-used 200-400cc 'commuter-bikes' like the Honda CD200 or Honda CB 'Two-Fifty', the Kawasaki GPz305, and some 250 Cruisers, frequently all in the bargain basement of the market; then something of a 'gap' where you would expect to find more inspiring or more tidy machines in the mid-range used market, until you get to brand new, and 'new' used, bikes, up to around five years old, usually commanding rather strong prices for what the bikes are. This includes machines like the Honda CBR250 and the Kawasaki 250 Ninja, and possibly the rare Yamaha YBR250, that were conceived for this licence group when introduced in other euro regions.

Probably the most common A2-Complient as standard bikes is in the area of on-off road machines. Here smaller displacements, fewer cylinders and lower power-outputs are positive benefits to make a light-weight machine for use on unmade surfaces, and I have to say, that if I was 19 again and on a restricted licence, faced with restrictions that seriously discourage a more sporting road-based motorcycle; idea of utilising what performance an A2 licence allows for some off road adventure would be rather more inspiring than the mundanety of a Honda CB Two-Fifty or the frustration of a sports-bike with its interesting bits removed! However, with 'dirt-bikes' while power output is less likely to exceed limits, you do need to pay heed to the weight, as they can easily exceed the power to weight limits, even at quite modest power outputs!

Which brings us to the matter of restriction, and if you don't want or cant find a suitable A2-Complient as standard machine, what could you 'restrict' to BE A2 compliant?

If you like sports-bikes, I'm afraid it doesn't look good!

As a rough reckoner, count the features below.

Engine over 600cc

Engine with more than two cylinders

Engine with water-cooling

Sports-Fairing

Made this Millennium

More than one front brake disc

If you answer 'Yes' to more than three out of the five, the chances are its NOT restrictable!

Working it out is pretty complicated, BUT, basically anything over 93bhp cant possibly be made A2 Compliant, because its over 2x the 47bhp maximum restricted power limit, and you cant restrict a bike by more than half its 'standard' quoted power output.

This then disqualifies almost all modern 'Super-Sports' bikes, from 600cc up. Bikes like the Kawasaki ZX6R 'Ninja' were developing 100bhp as early as 1997, so you are probably going to struggle to find a 600-Sports under the restrict able 93bhp limit, that's been made this century... and even if you did.... you still have to worry about the power to weight limits.... and with bikes like the R6 tipping the scales at a fly-weight 160Kg or so, they would have to be restricted to about 32Kw to be compliant with the 0.2Kw per Kg minimum power to weight limit; ie even less than the 35Kw allowed, and an even bigger proportion of their original standard power out-put.

If a 600-Super-Sports of this millennium wont restrict to A2 compliance, then there is little chance that a litre-Super-Sport will either, so you can take them off the list too.

What about the 400's? Oh yes. NOT a category of machines I am particularly fond of, and few are still in current or even recent manufacturers catalogues. The 'sports 400's are to all extents and purposes 'regulation beating' 600's from the late 80's and early 90's. Japanese domestic licence and taxation regulations was really the only reason they were built, because on their home market, buyers could not have a 600 or bigger machine very easily, and costing as much to manufacture as a full 600, they were often more expensive than their bigger stable mates. A lot were brought in to the UK second hand from Japan in the 1990's to meet demand for second hand middle-weight sports bikes that were in short supply and had strong prices and were sold as a 'Poor-Mans' substitute for the 600's, and consequently often did not get well treated.

Older and smaller in displacement, typical 'standard' power figures for these bikes is in the 50-60bhp range. This is within that which might reasonably be restricted, though they may have to be restricted beneath maximum permissible 47bhp to meet the power to weight limits.

IF 'Modern' Sports-Bikes are your 'bag'; then you are likely to have to accept one of the more 'sporty style' commuters, such as a Honda CBR250, or the Kawasaki 250 Ninja. These machines have been designed expressly it seems for this licence category, and while they probably wont set the world on fire with their statistics, they are a pretty good choice for a new-rider. They have the sporty styling, and as much power as the licence category allows, which can be more than three times that allowed on a 125-Only licence or L-Plates... its certainly enough to be useful and entertaining. It may be a little disappointing that they don't have the 'awesome' performance statistics of the real-deal four-cylinder sports-bikes... but they also don't tend to have the running costs, or compromises to JUST be fast round a race track.

So we have taken most four-cylinder sports bikes out of the frame, and significantly 600+cc sports. If you go back to Kawasaki's 1984 GPz900R, that made over 110bhp, its twice the restriction limit, its a non starter. The 1984 GPz600R that launched the class, that quotes 75bhp & 217Kg... hard to imagine now that we considered this 'light' and 'powerful' when it was new! But anyway. Those numbers make the bike just about restrictable. 75bhp is about 53Kw. You'd have to clip 18Kw off the top or restrict by about 30% of quoted power to get it inside limits, but you wouldn't have to over-restrict it to meet the power-to-weight limit, that starts to effect machines if over 175Kg. Yamaha's FZ750 of 1985? Nope.209Kg, it would be OK on power-to-weight, but at 105bhp, over 2x original power rule. So going back into the 'Modern classics'; Some very early 600 Sports might restrict. But 750's are probably not going to, and litre class bikes almost certainly not.

Go back a bit further, we get back to the old 'Muscle-Bikes' of the late 70's and early 80's... 'real' classics... which may appeal, but, with even the 1980 Honda CB900 making 95bhp, Kawasaki's big Zeds even more... they aren't going to be on the cards either.

So, going forwards again, we start looking at 'standard' bikes, street-bikes, 'retro' bikes or 'naked' class machines. Looking for one to bench-mark from, Yamaha's long running XJ900, leaps out, and again, a 95bhp power output suggests that even that is probably going to be on the limit of what might be restricted.

Tourers? Again, Honda ST1100 Pan-European was designed to be 100bhp Euro compliant, when some countries has a 100bhp maximum power limit. Its NOT looking good for big displacement bikes, or four cylinder machines in general.

Four cylinder bikes that could be restricted, like the popular Suzuki 600 Bandit, or Yamaha XJ600 Diversion, that develop around 70bhp or so, are probably restrict able, but going back again into the classics, even a 1977 Honda CB550, developed 50bhp and would need 'some' restriction. More modern 'Naked' 600's like the Honda CB600 'Hornet' develop over 100bhp, so like sports 600's not on the menu.

This leaves the most likely machines to be single or twin cylinder machines; motorcycles like the long-running Kawasaki GPz500s, its 'naked' stable mate the ER5, Suzukis' popular sporty-twin SV650 and more utilitarian GS500 stable-mate, and the Honda CB500, that have all been 'popular' choices for restriction to the 'old' 25Kw / 33bhp licence limits, and would be even 'better' restricted less to meet A2 licence limitations.

The Kawasaki GPz500s is one of the longest running in this company, launched in 1987 to popular acclaim, with a quoted power output of 60bhp. The less sophisticated Suzuki GS500 has usually been the least powerful of the selection, though quoted power has varied over the model years, around the 50bhp mark, so most probably needing a bit of restriction to meet A2 limits.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

Its an unrestricted Ride What you like licence. That means, you can PRETTY MUCH 'Ride what you like'! Almost any bike is game. Pick as much as your balls or bank-balance can stand!

DOESN'T mean that picking the most awesome Sports-Bike you can afford, however is a GOOD IDEA!

It increases your choices; BUT, take the hint. The A2 licence category was introduced expressly to discourage people from leaping straight onto high-performance motorcycles with little experience or appreciation of them, and getting 'all the thrills, without the skills, until it kills'. Biggest death-rate on the roads, is amongst sub 3 year DAS obtained full licence holders. Who think that because the DSA say they 'can' ride what they like, take that to mean that they CAN ride what they like! As though the qualification, means they must have the 'skill'!

And 'trouble' with a lot of modern machinery is that it is SO easy to ride. And sports-bikes in particular. Often suggested that a New Rider on something like an R6 'Will Kill Himself'. The unfortunate thing about these bikes though is they often don't! Very focused on doing one thing, they do that one thing incredibly well, and that one thing is "FAST". Its about all that kind of bike do. They aren't wonderfully comfy, sticking a pillion on the back ruins the balance, and they are cramped enough without trying to strap luggage to them. Its ALL they do. FAST. And they make it EASY. The new rider doesn't have to be a good rider, and doesn't have to work to do 'fast', and the bikes are so incredibly capable they will tolerate an awful lot of clumsiness and lack of precision and deliver a LOT of fast. And its the only sensation of reward you get from riding one.... going blindingly fast, so to get more of it, riders ride faster, and faster and faster, and get to BELIEVE that they are some sort of riding godd, because they are seeing super-stupid speeds on the dial from the bike, and are still alive to tell the tale, ergo the bike that every-one said would kill them, HASN'T..... and that must mean that they are some sort of virtuoso, who has the natural talent and ability to have "mastered the beast"..... accidents happen when confidence out-balances competence.

If they are lucky, the typical DAS qualifying rider, will be a fair-weather leisure rider, and riding few miles on a few sunny days a year, will limit their exposure to risk long enough that they survive to get some better experience, or their new found enthusiasm will fade, fairly fast and within a season or three, they have found other things to thrill them, and move on to something else.

BUT there are FAR too many 'unlucky ones' who often truly believe that they are good and sensible riders, have 'all the gear' and use it 'all the time' and that what they are doing is merely a 'little spirited' riding, not being an utter loonatic.

So if you have some sense, while you MAY be allowed to ride anything you like, as a new rider, respect the fact that you are still an early-learner until you have between three and five years good experience behind you, and more 'boring' bikes, can be a lot more rewarding to ride. Look at what you might ride on an A2 licence, and think hard about what you can really live with. Plenty of bikes that could be restricted to A2 are good friendly useful every-day machines, and as said, sort of bikes IF we were honest that offer 'as much' performance as we ever really 'need'. And on a full A or A3 licence, you merely have the luxury of not having to jump through hoops with insurance companies or any-one trying to get the bike restricted or proving its restricted, and MAY have that 'bit' extra available.

And 'less' can be more. I find modern super-sports bikes incredibly unrewarding to ride. All they do is 'fast', and they don't demand any effort from me as a rider to deliver it. Less capable, more all-round versatile machines, do more. I can stick a passenger on the back, and go places.... in some comfort! I can load it up with luggage and camping kit to do a week-end rally, without having to be a contortionist, or worrying about squeezing stuff into tiny bags or having to wear a ruck-sack. I can ride round town without getting a crick in my neck; AND I can indulge in a little spirited riding down a nice country road..... and experience 'fast'... at less licence threatening velocities, get a lot more riding 'sensation' from a less capable bike being pushed closer to the ragged edge, and a lot more reward and satisfaction having to work for it. All up, it delivers a HECK of a lot more all-round 'Fun'... and for a new rider, you get all that extra 'fun' and the fun of learning.

so while you might be allowed 'Any-Bike'... still good reason to choose something that's more newby-freindly. Learning don't stop when you loose the L-Plates! I've been at it thirty odd years, and I'm STILL learning stuff.

Is Formal Training REALLY worth the money?

YES!

Cost is immaterial. Passing tests a secondary consideration.

How much are you spending on a bike? Jacket? Hat? Any other biking related paraphernalia?

How long do you expect them to last? How much 'Value' do you expect to get from them?

Is £140 for the aural sensation of an after market exhaust pipe that de-values your motorcycle, and increases insurance premiums 'good-value' in your scheme of things?
Is a Dyno-Jet or Power-Commander kit that finds you an extra 4bhp, a worth while investment?
Crash helmet, maybe £100-£400's worth is good for ONE crash.
Set of leathers? £500's worth? Maybe two crashes worth of protection.
Race Can & power commander? 4bhp, maybe an extra 10mph more top end speed and a bit more acceleration if you are lucky.... few seconds of typical journey times. ONLY works as long as you have THAT one bike its fitted to.

TRAINING....

Well, it makes you a BETTER rider, doesn't it.

Old adage at the track. Want this bike to go faster? Fit a better rider. Better rider goes faster, crashes less.

TRAINING makes you a better rider; all well and good having the first lesson of CBT and a bike, but without any more lessons to TEACH you anything more than the VERY basics covered in NOT a lot of depth in CBT, you can 'practice' to your hearts content, and all you will do is practice the basics or learn by making painful and costly mistakes.

Lessons; Well, you cant touch taste, smell or show off lessons, can you? Don't have anything physical to show for your money... and it seems a lot of dosh for not a lot of 'err, well what do you get? Words? & Talks cheap innit?

WRONG; you get WISDOM

Wisdom that tells you what to do RIGHT, right at the beginning, so you DON'T have to learn by falling off....

Wisdom that gives you stuff to practice and get right, early on.

Wisdom that will make you a BETTER RIDER....

A Rider that not ONLY can pass a riding test, but who will ride SAFER.... and NOT crash and NEED that fancy hat.... that's value you CANNOT put a price on!

A Rider who being safer and more highly skilled can manage their bike and get more speed out of it, WITHOUT bolt on extras.....

And THAT value goes onto every bike you will EVER ride

Gets better with experience, never looses value, never takes value off your bike, never puts your insurance prices up.....

Now, go away and look at all the fancy biking 'Stuff' you COULD buy with the money you might hope to save, by NOT having any lessons, and ask yourself IS this really 'good' value for money?

TRAINING IS FOR LIFE

What Training do I need before I take the tests?

NEED? Well, legally you don't 'NEED' any! (beyond CBT) But see above! Its damned useful stuff, and ideally passing tests should be a by-product of training to become a safe competent rider, NOT the goal!

the 'Ideal' way to train, in my opinion, is on your own (learner-Legal) bike. You do your CBT, then as SOON as you are ready to start out on the road on your own, you book some weekly lessons. Schools vary in what they will offer, but two hours a week, is about right.

Starting RIGHT at the start, you learn how to do it RIGHT. Saves learning by your own mistakes, which can be expensive and painful, why its called 'The School of Hard-Knocks!'. and saves you getting into bad-habits.

You do your CBT, ride for a week, have a lesson. Instructor checks your riding, picks up on any mistakes & corrects them, then gives you something 'new' to learn, gives you a chance to get the idea, then sends you home, and you have a whole week, where you can practice this to your hearts content and get it 'nailed'. Following week, you go back, instructor checks your riding, picks up on any mistakes & corrects them, sends you home with something ELSE to practice.

You learn in stages, with plenty of time to master what you are taught. You can learn at your own rate, and it ought to be pretty efficient, because you aren't letting bad habits or problems perpetuate, they are being picked up as you go along and corrected.

On such a course, a 'typical' newbie, could quite easily get to test standard in perhaps, six or eight weeks. Month and a half, two months, and be trained not just to test standard, but with experience gained while being 'mentored', be pretty well 'prepared' for post test riding.

I always say; every HOURS training, in the first month of riding is worth a DAY after a years riding. Many new riders do leave it THAT long by the time they get round to doing any post CBT training, and its often realisation that their CBT cert is about to expire that prompts them to 'cram'; and its often difficult, because they have got used to doing stuff their own way, and it can be three times as hard to get them to ride to the book, when they have never learned the 'right stuff' and their unsupervised L-Plate experience as often has NOT been good, and they have a LOT of bad habits, and often fears of doing stuff, learned from falling off or nearly falling off, when they have had no guidance.

But ultimately, it's a piece of string question, and as mentioned above in comment on What's CBT and below in 'is it any easier'; we ALL learn at different rates, and we start off with some pre-dispositions that might make it easier, others that can make it harder. So I cant say.

BUT, get some training booked, and your instructor should be able to judge to SOME degree how much work you need and where, to give better ideas.

From a standing start though, 16-20 hours of tuition is a good reckoner. , following my ideal model of weekly lessons, that's USUALLY enough to cover a lot of ground and lay down a pretty good foundation skill-set. People doing Intensive DAS courses, can often go from a standing start to getting a licence in that amount of training, though see below, I don't recommend 'Crash-Courses', and candidates will rarely get as MUCH preparation, for their money.

BUT, training to test standard is ONLY the beginning. Once you have that solid foundation skill-set; you are STILL going to be a learner for maybe three years of riding; and as you gain experience, there is a lot you might want to ask about or get advice or instruction on.

So REALLY the answer is, how much do you WANT?

I'm a car driver, so should be easy, just getting used to different controls, right?

NO!

It is true there are SOME 'transferable' skills from car driving to riding a motorbike. Yes, you know many of the road conventions, you have some idea of what a clutch does and 'stuff'. But sorry, a LOT of stuff you do in a car can be UNHELPFUL.

Teaching car drivers to ride motorbikes, I have been beleaguered with the same 'problems' over and over again. And the very FIRST one, is that the car driving student really DO think that they know it all already, and its GOING to be 'Easy'. Unresponsive to learning, they ignore advice, question advice, and in the worse cases it can deteriorate into a battle, where they convince themselves that the instructor is an 'idiot' and that not ONLY do they know it all already, they know BETTER than the instructor.

If you approach Motorcycle training with ANY such pre-conceptions, it WILL make learning harder for you, NOT easier. Thinking you know stuff, you will not pay attention when you think you are being told stuff you already know and WILL 'miss' the vital differences, and you will not 'engage' and will miss opportunities to ask questions, and learn more.

But even with the right attitude, some of the engrained 'habits' of driving a car will take a LOT of breaking.

Humorously, on the CBT play-ground, car driving students can go great guns. Knowing what a clutch is, having some empathy for the throttle, they will seem to pick things up pretty quickly. Then come the after-noon, we go out for the on-road element, and ride OFF the artificial environment of the play-ground, and at the very first junction, on real roads.... they fall over. JUST literally STOP and fall over!

Reason is, that while they are on the simulated and 'unusual' environment of the play-ground its all 'new' and they are learning, and they do as they are told, because they have nothing else suggesting what they should do.

But as SOON as they are on a real road, with houses, white lines, road-signs, parked cars, and the usual furniture of the 'road' they are used to, the ingrained 'instinct' of driving a car 'kicks in; and at that first junction, they STOP, and sit there, just like they would in a car.... I even had ONE student once reach down to put the hand-brake on before he toppled!

Because they have forgotten to put their foot down!

Most remember.... eventually... a few before bits of bike touch tarmac, but not all, and its something we can laugh about.

BUT, That is how ENGRAINED these 'reflexes' can be.

The complete newbie, has no such engrained reflexes, and learning 'fresh' has a much easier time, getting to grips with what they have to do, and doing it, consistently.

Here, on road training, the fresh newbie who is likely to have struggled on the play-ground CAN start to shine, while the Car-Driver REALLY starts to struggle.

For the instructor its often very frustrating, because the faults are repetitive. Common ones are remembering to cancel indicators. Bikes don't have self cancelling switches, rider HAS to positively switch them off after a manoeuvre. And we are constantly having to remind Car-Driving students.

Observations are another. In a car, surrounded by metal, drivers use mirrors, they rarely have to move their head and look to the side or behind them. On a bike we HAVE to make a lot MORE observations, and more of them NOT in the mirrors.

Teaching car drivers to ride; "Indicators!" and "Observations!" are reminders constantly worn out over the radio reminding the student to do stuff they have been thought and reminded a hundred times, while they BREAK those car-driving habits.

Other one is braking, engine braking and using the engine revs. Cars don't often have engines that rev as highly as motorbike engines. Particularly diesel cars and small motorbikes. The also don't make the same noises.

A lot of work is done in modern car design to make car cabin's 'quiet', and some I actually have to look at the rev-counter to know the engine is even running! Not so on a bike. They are often noisier to begin with because they are air-cooled and don't have a sound damping water-jacket around them, but then they don't have the metal box a
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covent.gardens: lihp is my most favourite member ever

[Fisty]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I'm out.
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Quietly and consistently taking the piss.
TL1000R | Hayabusa | ZXR400 | TL1000S | Bandit 400 V
Fatter and faster than Fret