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Issue of the day: the great diesel emissions scam

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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 09:49 - 12 Apr 2015    Post subject: Issue of the day: the great diesel emissions scam Reply with quote
Yet another real world study finds diesel NOx emissions seven times higher than allowed by Euro 6 standards.

Given that manufacturers know fine well that they're deliberately and cynically programming vehicles specifically to scam lab emissions tests, and that NOx really kills real people in the real world, and that testers know this, and politicians know this: shouldn't folk be going to jail over this? Real jail, not lab jail.

One very interesting point that I wasn't aware of though is that from 2017, EU emissions testing should be actual emissions testing, on the road. No more dial-it-down dyno testing, and about bloody time too.

Bike related angle is that bikes get slated for having high NOx emissions, but perhaps they're just being honest. With realistic, fair emissions testing, perhaps the issue of bike VED might be raised again.
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 14:45 - 12 Apr 2015; edited 1 time in total
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 13:03 - 12 Apr 2015    Post subject: Re: Issue of the day: the great diesel emissions scam Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
perhaps the issue of bike VED might be raised again.

any scheme would be at best cost neutral or more likely revenue positive..
larger cc bikes fewer in number levied ..
to pay for the reduction in numerous smaller cc bikes..
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:50 - 12 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Depends on the bike. CO2 emissions are essentially a factor of fuel efficiency. My bikes return 65mpg and over 80mpg (real world). That would put them in the nil to £30 brackets for cars. Bring it on.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 12 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Issue of the day? Laughing

There are far more important tings happening on BCF. Such as, are the police gonna get called about Smiler being fraped and sent anal beads in the post. Shocked
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 15:20 - 12 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Hardly surprising. Make a system with punitive penalties (ie, no sales to go out of business) for not meeting some easily fudged figures and it is bound to result in people doing the fudges.

Not sure real world testing will help either. Too many external variables that are difficult to control (ie, if actual road testing then temperature, pressure, moisture, wind direction, even how healthy and close to the track the trees are, will greatly effect the results).

Rogerborg wrote:
My bikes return 65mpg and over 80mpg (real world)


Which are not equivalent to tested figures. Unless a large part of your real world figures are based on short journies from a cold start and lots of stopping and starting.

Plenty of vehicles are optimised for the current tests. Minor change in gearing or mapping of a drive by wire throttle could easily reduce fuel consumption with a resulting massive reduction in tax figures for no real world change in consumption. Most obvious illustration is with automatic cars where despite a less efficient transmission they can control the gear change points for testing and so get a lower official figure for fuel consumption.

All the best

K
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:17 - 12 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
My bikes return 65mpg and over 80mpg (real world)

Which are not equivalent to tested figures.

Which it is my point, ain't it? If all vehicles, bikes and cars, were actually tested on emissions and economy on real roads, with traffic and hills and all sorts, then we might see some interesting results.

Bikes already have a bad rep for NOx - see the Paris ban on pre-2007 models - so the situation can really only get better for us.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 12 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

Which it is my point, ain't it? If all vehicles, bikes and cars, were actually tested on emissions and economy on real roads, with traffic and hills and all sorts, then we might see some interesting results.


Aye, but my point was that in the tests your bike probably wouldn't do anything like as well.

Any real road test is going to need to be so strictly controlled as to be as meaningless as the current test.

Given that the main point of it is to tax the fuel consumption, which is also taxed directly by fuel duty the obvious alternative is to just give up on the testing, or at least only do it to post in the comedy section of the owners handbook.

As an aside the MX5 I have has a 6 speed gearbox. The equivalent with a 5 speed box (same engine, maybe a few kg less weight) is about 5% better on the official CO2 figures, making a significant difference to the road tax (VED for pedants). Reality is that the 6 speed ones seem to really be as good on fuel. Suspect what actually happens is in the test cycle the 6 speed lands up with an extra gear change in each bit of acceleration when for real use the few hundred rpm difference is utterly irrelevant to the driver.

All the best

K
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weasley
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PostPosted: 21:57 - 12 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
As an aside the MX5 I have has a 6 speed gearbox. The equivalent with a 5 speed box (same engine, maybe a few kg less weight) is about 5% better on the official CO2 figures, making a significant difference to the road tax (VED for pedants). Reality is that the 6 speed ones seem to really be as good on fuel. Suspect what actually happens is in the test cycle the 6 speed lands up with an extra gear change in each bit of acceleration when for real use the few hundred rpm difference is utterly irrelevant to the driver.


For manual transmissions the NEDC prescribes the gear shift points... up to 3rd in the urban section and 5th in the highway bit. There can be no extra gear shifts.

On fuel economy/CO2, whilst bikes have apparently good numbers, on an emissions per kg or emissions per seat basis they don't stack up well.
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lukamon
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PostPosted: 23:27 - 12 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

Which it is my point, ain't it? If all vehicles, bikes and cars, were actually tested on emissions and economy on real roads, with traffic and hills and all sorts, then we might see some interesting results.


Aye, but my point was that in the tests your bike probably wouldn't do anything like as well.

Any real road test is going to need to be so strictly controlled as to be as meaningless as the current test.

Given that the main point of it is to tax the fuel consumption, which is also taxed directly by fuel duty the obvious alternative is to just give up on the testing, or at least only do it to post in the comedy section of the owners handbook.

As an aside the MX5 I have has a 6 speed gearbox. The equivalent with a 5 speed box (same engine, maybe a few kg less weight) is about 5% better on the official CO2 figures, making a significant difference to the road tax (VED for pedants). Reality is that the 6 speed ones seem to really be as good on fuel. Suspect what actually happens is in the test cycle the 6 speed lands up with an extra gear change in each bit of acceleration when for real use the few hundred rpm difference is utterly irrelevant to the driver.

All the best

K


not quite. in fact your mx5 in 6th gear revs higher than my 5 speed version does in 5th for the same road speed

same model, same engine otherwise Neutral
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 07:07 - 13 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
lukamon wrote:

not quite. in fact your mx5 in 6th gear revs higher than my 5 speed version does in 5th for the same road speed

same model, same engine otherwise Neutral


True, but then I can be sitting in 6th instead and revving lower (and I quite often skip straight from 3rd to 6th if bimbling), and the same in other gears.

All the best

K
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:11 - 13 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Aye, but my point was that in the tests your bike probably wouldn't do anything like as well.

Can't see why it wouldn't do relatively well on the same realistic test compared to other vehicles.

Kickstart wrote:
Any real road test is going to need to be so strictly controlled as to be as meaningless as the current test.

Aye, there's the rub. Imagine the bawwwing and legal whinging if vehicles aren't run over exactly the same test course. At least there's a level playing field at the moment - all manufacturers are free to scam the exact same emissions test.


Kickstart wrote:
Given that the main point of it is to tax the fuel consumption, which is also taxed directly by fuel duty the obvious alternative is to just give up on the testing

So say we all. VED - at least ongoing VED - is comically pointless and irrelevant. In the UK it's really just a way of keeping Swansea oxygen thieves off the dole.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 14:49 - 13 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
lukamon wrote:
not quite. in fact your mx5 in 6th gear revs higher than my 5 speed version does in 5th for the same road speed

same model, same engine otherwise Neutral


For a stock mx5 the 5 revs higher than the 6...

https://www.miata.net/garage/KnowYourCar/S8_Gears.html
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lukamon
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PostPosted: 16:19 - 13 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
lukamon wrote:
not quite. in fact your mx5 in 6th gear revs higher than my 5 speed version does in 5th for the same road speed

same model, same engine otherwise Neutral


For a stock mx5 the 5 revs higher than the 6...

https://www.miata.net/garage/KnowYourCar/S8_Gears.html


Nope, that's for previous gen. (nb)
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 22:11 - 13 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
lukamon wrote:

Nope, that's for previous gen. (nb)


Figures I can find show for a European NC the 6 speed has a lower 6th gear ratio than the 5 speeds 5th gear (0.832 vs 0.814) which would make it higher revving, it also has quite a substantially higher ratio diff (3.727 vs 4.1) that more than makes up for this.

Down side is that as the gears to use are specified (as Weasley says), the 6 speed is using lower gearing for the tests other than a bit of the extra urban test.

All the best

K
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lukamon
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PostPosted: 01:31 - 14 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:


Figures I can find show for a European NC the 6 speed has a lower 6th gear ratio than the 5 speeds 5th gear (0.832 vs 0.814) which would make it higher revving, it also has quite a substantially higher ratio diff (3.727 vs 4.1) that more than makes up for this

K


Huh, so it seems. Always thought that was a bit odd since reading it somewhere, guess I assumed the diffs were all the same (Torsen?)
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 18:02 - 14 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Think the 1.8 has a basic open diff, but 2L has an LSD. But the diff ratio can be easily changed (think US market NC models have a lower ratio diff - same ratio as on the 5 speed version).

All the best

K
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 18:08 - 14 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

Can't see why it wouldn't do relatively well on the same realistic test compared to other vehicles.


A very small difference can make a big difference to VED ratings. But a fairly rich low down fueling up (so it wasn't a pig to ride when moving off) might make negligible difference to real word fuel consumption but make a big difference on a short series of stops and starts.

All the best

K
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dransy
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 14 Apr 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Where does my pajero stand that gets run on 70% cooking oil 30% diesel
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