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Best engine displacement for city riding?

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wupwup
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PostPosted: 21:54 - 30 May 2015    Post subject: Best engine displacement for city riding? Reply with quote
I am throwing around some ideas for a cafe racer build - probably with an 80s model bike. Its going to be a city ride, so as much as I would love to get a big, litre bike I think the weight would make it trouble around town.

Right now I am thinking that a 400cc should be about right, but also considering it will be a light weight, stripped back build I might even be able to get away with as low as 250cc. Like I said, I want light, nimble and nippy for city riding - it doesn't need to go super fast because I will never ride it fast. As long as it has a little umph off the line to keep things exciting that is fine.

More importantly, a 250 would be better because I don't have a full licence, and I guess smaller bikes are easier to build? It's a first build, so I want to keep it simple. That said, I don't want to go to all that trouble and then have a bike so small that I get bored. Of course, 80s 250s are much slower than today's I guess, so would it get boring very quick?
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Musketeer
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PostPosted: 22:30 - 30 May 2015    Post subject: Re: Best engine displacement for city riding? Reply with quote
wupwup wrote:

More importantly, a 250 would be better because I don't have a full licence


Without full licence you cannot ride anything bigger than 125cc, sorry.

But.. 125cc is perfectly fine for city riding.
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wupwup
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 30 May 2015    Post subject: Re: Best engine displacement for city riding? Reply with quote
mJZ wrote:
wupwup wrote:

More importantly, a 250 would be better because I don't have a full licence


Without full licence you cannot ride anything bigger than 125cc, sorry.

But.. 125cc is perfectly fine for city riding.


Ah, yes, but I could do my A2 test and that would allow me to ride a bigger bike, dependent on engine size and also weight to power ration. I would not be able to do my full test until I was 24 is what I meant.

Although this does bring up another question - just how useable are 125s in the long run? It might be better and cheaper to do up a 125 as a first bike. The downside is that customising would destroy the resale value, and I'm not sure I would want to sell something I put that much time and effort into, but I also wouldn't want to be stuck with an under powered bike that is no good. Are 125s any 'fun'? I know they arent fast.

Also, does anyone know the legality of an engine swap? Would I, say, be able to get an old 250cc bike, and put in a 125 engine until I pass my final test? I presume it would be a nightmare to insure, even if I could do it without ruining the frame so much I couldn't out the original engine back in later.

Then again, what makes a bike what? If I get a Honda CL125 and put all of the parts into a CL250 frame, is that then a 125 or a 250? Would I be able to insure that as a 125 with the correct plates? Presumably noone would notice either unless they decided to check the frame plates.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:05 - 30 May 2015    Post subject: Re: Best engine displacement for city riding? Reply with quote
wupwup wrote:
I don't have a full licence

Do you have any license? I ask since you've been talking about doing this since you were looking at Bandit 600s in 2010, which is as far back as I can bear to read. If you say "CBT" then God help your soul.

wupwup wrote:
Of course, 80s 250s are much slower than today's I guess

Depends on the 250.

https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/kawasaki/kawasaki_gpx250r%2086.htm = 45hp, 142kg

https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/kawasaki/kawasaki_ninja_250%2012.htm = 30hp, 170kg

Boring is as boring does. I enjoy using full throttle on the Enfield more than constantly rolling, rolling, rolling off on the GS. I'm currently looking out for another bike that's as 'bad' as the Enfield, in fact.
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wupwup
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PostPosted: 23:47 - 30 May 2015    Post subject: Re: Best engine displacement for city riding? Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
wupwup wrote:
I don't have a full licence

Do you have any license? I ask since you've been talking about doing this since you were looking at Bandit 600s in 2010, which is as far back as I can bear to read. If you say "CBT" then God help your soul.

wupwup wrote:
Of course, 80s 250s are much slower than today's I guess

Depends on the 250.

https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/kawasaki/kawasaki_gpx250r%2086.htm = 45hp, 142kg

https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/kawasaki/kawasaki_ninja_250%2012.htm = 30hp, 170kg

Boring is as boring does. I enjoy using full throttle on the Enfield more than constantly rolling, rolling, rolling off on the GS. I'm currently looking out for another bike that's as 'bad' as the Enfield, in fact.


Just my car licence now. As you can see, I have wanted a bike for a long, long time, but I decided that I needed a car more than a bike and didn't have the money for both. Now I can make it work financially, and I just have to decide what to do. Whichever 250 I go for it will customized, and will end up much lighter as a result, which might be a problem...
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rideslikean00...
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PostPosted: 23:56 - 30 May 2015    Post subject: Re: Best engine displacement for city riding? Reply with quote
mJZ wrote:
But.. 125cc is perfectly fine for city riding.


In fact probably better for low speed stuff because smaller turning circle, less distance between bars and lighter therefore easier to manoeuvre. There's a reason many crowded town centres have loads of ped riders, precisely because of those advantages.

Depends on where the bike's torque is. In crowded city traffic I find you'll be using the gears more to engine brake and looking ahead anticipating the actions of dozens of cars because it's much easier on both you and the bike to use the engine to slow down rather than hammering on the brakes all the time. Trying to swerve to avoid something while using lots of front brake is dangerous. Another advantage of the bike, block shifting gears down from say forth (where on an IL4 there generally isn't much torque at low speeds because it's low in the rev range therefore the response of throttle is slower and more predictable) to first can really help you with sudden changes of speed where you want to slow down in a hurry and not have the front end dive forward sacrificing your low speed control.

I'm no expert but to me it's obvious there is no ideal engine displacement because there's more than one factor at play, and that's a single one among many. How you work with what you've got, your riding style, can make almost any bike manageable for city riding.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 00:10 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Re: Best engine displacement for city riding? Reply with quote
wupwup wrote:
Just my car licence now. As you can see, I have wanted a bike for a long, long time

Hang on, have you ridden any bikes? Eh?

I'm actually minded to agree with you that a 250 - 400 is good for city commuting, I just wouldn't cafe it because that's a riding position designed for high speed straight line runs up motorways.

https://www.extremecreations.com.au/themes/Standard/images/gallery/honda/CB350%20Cafe%20Racer%202.jpg

In any case, to get your A2 you'll be doing your training and tests on something like a CB500F, at 35kW/46hp and 175kg dry. After getting used to that, you might still want to go back down to a smaller bike, but I wouldn't make any plans around it.

License first, dream bike when you're in a position to ride it.
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wupwup
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PostPosted: 00:33 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not on roads. Not properly.

As for customising, I was going to brat style it, rather than cafe racer it (my bad), for a more upright riding position that would be better for real riding. I would love a cafe racer, but not for a first bike.

Right now I want something cheap and rideable to learn on, but that doesn't mean I can't make it look damn cool too, with some very simple changes.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 00:44 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
wupwup wrote:
Right now I want something cheap and rideable to learn on

Right now, you can't ride anything on the road.

CBT Arrow motorcycle theory Arrow A2 tests Arrow bike.

or

CBT Arrow 125cc while you wait for training and test slots to become available.

Got your CBT booked?
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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wupwup
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PostPosted: 01:04 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
wupwup wrote:
Right now I want something cheap and rideable to learn on

Right now, you can't ride anything on the road.

CBT Arrow motorcycle theory Arrow A2 tests Arrow bike.

or

CBT Arrow 125cc while you wait for training and test slots to become available.

Got your CBT booked?


Not yet - I will be 22 in a few months and will take it then, for the simple reason that it only lasts two years and I would be annoyed to have to pay to do it a second time to do my full test when I hit 24. But yes, right not I can't ride anything, but I don't fear my ability to pass a CBT (hell they even come with free re-takes these days).

More to the point, I need to build the damn bike before I ride it, so I need to decide what bike to choose (hence this thread). If I get a 250 I should be able to ride that on an A2 licence, dependent on the specific bike and weight, but to get a 400 would probably require me to wait until I have a full licence to meet the power:weight limits with a stripped back bike.

So, it depends whether 250s have enough umph to make them worth having long term, or whether I would get really bored of it really quick, and would be better waiting and getting a 400 when i turn 24. In which case I would have to be content with a 125 for now.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 01:27 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
wupwup wrote:
[CBT] only lasts two years and I would be annoyed to have to pay to do it a second time to do my full test when I hit 24.

??? CBT Arrow A2. No need to re-do the CBT when you do A at 24 (or 2 years after you pass A2).


wupwup wrote:
I don't fear my ability to pass a CBT (hell they even come with free re-takes these days).

Depends who you go with. Some outfits do charge for extra days or half days.



wupwup wrote:
but to get a 400 would probably require me to wait until I have a full licence to meet the power:weight limits with a stripped back bike.

If you ever find anyone who cares about the 0.2kW/kg limit. I very much doubt it, there was still demonstrably common ignorance of the previous licensing regime after two decades.

AFAICT, all of the Japanese IL4 400s made (or claimed) in excess of 35kW as stock, so if you're bothered by the letter of the law you'd need to get them restricted or "restricted" for A2 anyway.

I won't evangelise too hard, but I'll just note that Enfields are natively A2 compliant, have decent torque off the line, are narrow and have a good turning circle. They're not actually light, but you don't feel the weight. 80mpg, cheap insurance and consumables, parts are easily available, including for customisation. I genuinely rate mine as a commuter.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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wupwup
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PostPosted: 01:48 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

??? CBT Arrow A2. No need to re-do the CBT when you do A at 24 (or 2 years after you pass A2).


True, although i would then have to pay to do both the A2 and the A test. It might be the best option, but it does seem redundant to do a test twice, and pay for it twice too.

Rogerborg wrote:


If you ever find anyone who cares about the 0.2kW/kg limit. I very much doubt it, there was still demonstrably common ignorance of the previous licensing regime after two decades.

AFAICT, all of the Japanese IL4 400s made (or claimed) in excess of 35kW as stock, so if you're bothered by the letter of the law you'd need to get them restricted or "restricted" for A2 anyway.

I won't evangelise too hard, but I'll just note that Enfields are natively A2 compliant, have decent torque off the line, are narrow and have a good turning circle. They're not actually light, but you don't feel the weight. 80mpg, cheap insurance and consumables, parts are easily available, including for customisation. I genuinely rate mine as a commuter.


Very true. I would prefer to keep it legal though - hell, I guess i could just restrict a 400 though. I presumed that most restricter kits were for bigger bikes than that, but apparently not. If I am re-building the bike I might as well restrict it myself while i am at it - can't be that hard Wink

Enfields don't really do it for me - sorry Wink
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Slacker24seve...
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PostPosted: 07:43 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
The fail is strong in this one.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 08:18 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Re: Best engine displacement for city riding? Reply with quote
wupwup wrote:
...a cafe racer build - probably with an 80s model bike. Its going to be a city ride...


Long tank, low handlebars, the foot pegs right below your arse. Well, it's not about the engine, is it? That'll be hell in city traffic, no matter what engine you get. Thumbs Up
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iooi
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PostPosted: 09:35 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
wupwup wrote:

More to the point, I need to build the damn bike before I ride it, so I need to decide what bike to choose


More to the point.
Pass the CBT. Just get a cg 125. LEARN TO RIDE Thumbs Up

Once you are happy and PASSED your tests. THEN look at building the bike you want. Rolling Eyes

NOT the other way round which will see you wasting £££ and years of your life to get exactly no where.
Well, other than a mass of pointless posts and a heap of scrap metal in the back yard.... Laughing
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 09:43 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
wupwup wrote:
Not on roads. Not properly.

As for customising, I was going to brat style it, rather than cafe racer it (my bad), for a more upright riding position that would be better for real riding. I would love a cafe racer, but not for a first bike.

Right now I want something cheap and rideable to learn on, but that doesn't mean I can't make it look damn cool too, with some very simple changes.


If you're going to modify your first learner bike you better get some insurance quotes before you start.
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ajag
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PostPosted: 09:49 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
So you have not ridden any bike, yet the main thing going through your mind is that you want to customise it and make it lighter...

why? why do you need to make a bike you have no idea how it rides lighter?

Not that there is anything wrong with wanting to customise a bike, but it is something that only comes to mind after you have ridden bikes (or more importantly the bike you want to customise) for a while. What makes you think that a stock bike will not be good for you?

You are going at this completely the wrong way.

- first, get your license
- second, test ride some bikes (or at least sit on them)
- third, get and ride the selected bike for a while
- fourth, then decide what aspects of the bike you want to change and go about it slowly. Change to much at once and it is very likely you are going to mess it up, especially when you have absolutely no clue as to what you are doing.
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Wednesday Biker
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PostPosted: 10:26 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just buy a Sinnis Trackstar or a Skyteam ace 125. Ok for city riding and maybe the look you are after and then once you have some biking experience take your full test in two years.
Then you'll be more knowledge and know more what it is you want to build.
Otherwise you may never actually end up with a bike Smile

Last edited by Wednesday Biker on 10:29 - 31 May 2015; edited 1 time in total
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 10:28 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
ajag wrote:
why? why do you need to make a bike you have no idea how it rides lighter?


Because of Tv shows and youtube channels full of cafe racer custom builders. Razz Laughing

Wednesday Biker wrote:
Just buy a Sinnis Trackstar or a Skyteam ace 125.


Why would one do that? I'd rather have 10+ years old Japanese bike, rather than a brand new well, sort of a motorcycle. If you look at the perspective, the brand new Sinnis or Skyteam will cost more to keep alive, than a 10 years old Japanese motorcycle, for which there are tons of parts available + we all know how reliable made in Japan motorcycles are.

On the other hand, we've seen many Chinese motorcycles made 5 years ago, or even more recently, running their 2nd or even 3rd engine. Thinking

TL; DR: look at the prices of those Chinese death traps, and take the money and buy yourself a used Japanese motorcycle. Thumbs Up
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Last edited by RhynoCZ on 10:32 - 31 May 2015; edited 1 time in total
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:28 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
wupwup wrote:
i would then have to pay to do both the A2 and the A test. It might be the best option, but it does seem redundant to do a test twice, and pay for it twice too.

The alternative is riding a 125 for 2 years which severely limits the awesomeness of the experience. Nothing looks Ace with L plates on it.

Look at this this way. You can do A2 now and get on the best bikes possible as soon as possible. After 2 years (or at 24) you can buy yourself a 600cc+ 40kw-70kW bike and (de facto) ride it to the test centre and use it to sit your A tests with the appropriate 'restricting' / 'derestricting' sleight of hand. Or just stay on A2 if it's appropriate for the bikes that you want.


Rogerborg wrote:
I guess i could just restrict a 400 though. I presumed that most restricter kits were for bigger bikes than that, but apparently not. If I am re-building the bike I might as well restrict it myself while i am at it - can't be that hard Wink

Have a look at Kickstart Engineering on eBay and see what's available.

https://stores.ebay.co.uk/kickstart-engineering/Restrictor-Kit-/_i.html?_fsub=4248452017&_sid=1021114207&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

However, one poster here reckoned his mate's bike dynod at nearer 25kW than 35kW after fitting, which could mean he got sent a new-old-stock 25kW kit or that the seller isn't making any real attempt to get the restriction right.

In most cases, what's going to matter is showing a 'certificate', which is a fictional document that various people may or may not accept as evidence that your bike is restricted.


Rogerborg wrote:
Enfields don't really do it for me - sorry Wink

https://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/models/img/kits/cafe-racer.jpg


NKVD fan wrote:
Inb4 G starts eschewing the virtues of 190 bhp for commuting.

It's about the gearing. Folded arms

Actually, if Mike wants to say "Stop SPERGING, start RIDING" I may have to unenemy him to agree.


Slacker24seven wrote:
The fail is strong in this one.

I strongly suspect that we'll be reading the same thing in 2 years time, only with 600s.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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wupwup
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PostPosted: 10:55 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
wupwup wrote:
i would then have to pay to do both the A2 and the A test. It might be the best option, but it does seem redundant to do a test twice, and pay for it twice too.

The alternative is riding a 125 for 2 years which severely limits the awesomeness of the experience. Nothing looks Ace with L plates on it.

Look at this this way. You can do A2 now and get on the best bikes possible as soon as possible. After 2 years (or at 24) you can buy yourself a 600cc+ 40kw-70kW bike and (de facto) ride it to the test centre and use it to sit your A tests with the appropriate 'restricting' / 'derestricting' sleight of hand. Or just stay on A2 if it's appropriate for the bikes that you want.


Rogerborg wrote:
I guess i could just restrict a 400 though. I presumed that most restricter kits were for bigger bikes than that, but apparently not. If I am re-building the bike I might as well restrict it myself while i am at it - can't be that hard Wink

Have a look at Kickstart Engineering on eBay and see what's available.

https://stores.ebay.co.uk/kickstart-engineering/Restrictor-Kit-/_i.html?_fsub=4248452017&_sid=1021114207&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

However, one poster here reckoned his mate's bike dynod at nearer 25kW than 35kW after fitting, which could mean he got sent a new-old-stock 25kW kit or that the seller isn't making any real attempt to get the restriction right.

In most cases, what's going to matter is showing a 'certificate', which is a fictional document that various people may or may not accept as evidence that your bike is restricted.


Rogerborg wrote:
Enfields don't really do it for me - sorry Wink

https://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/models/img/kits/cafe-racer.jpg


NKVD fan wrote:
Inb4 G starts eschewing the virtues of 190 bhp for commuting.

It's about the gearing. Folded arms

Actually, if Mike wants to say "Stop SPERGING, start RIDING" I may have to unenemy him to agree.


Slacker24seven wrote:
The fail is strong in this one.

I strongly suspect that we'll be reading the same thing in 2 years time, only with 600s.



The A2 test doesn't expire, right? I can stay on that indefinitely? I guess it doesn't automatically upgrade to a full licence after two years though?

As for why I am customising it, its because I want the project as much as I want something cool to ride. it is about the process of making something as much as the end result.

Something like this
https://thebikeshed.cc/2014/11/22/86-motorcycles-cj360-bratrat/

Looks awesome, but also looks ok to ride. And you would hope too beat up looking to get stolen.[/url]
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Wednesday Biker
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suzuki-RV-125-L0-VAN-VAN-/221767083675

I get the building thing but I would honestly buy a 125 first and then do the build during the next two years while you are waiting to do the full test.
125's are great for city riding and you will be able to enjoy biking now.
You could do the A2 and stay on that if you were happy not getting a more powerful bike.But no the licence doesn't upgrade automatically, you have to take a second test to be unrestricted.
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Dalemac
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PostPosted: 11:08 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why bother asking a question, to which people spend their time thinking about, and formulating an answer, only to completely disregard the advice given and then do what you want to do anyway?
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 11:10 - 31 May 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wednesday Biker wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suzuki-RV-125-L0-VAN-VAN-/221767083675

I get the building thing but I would honestly buy a 125 first and then do the build during the next two years while you are waiting to do the full test.
125's are great for city riding and you will be able to enjoy biking now.


£2,495.00? Are you out of your mind?! Shocked

I paid 2.5x less for the ZXR I've got and the odds are, when I'm gonna decide to sell it, I'm getting my money back. No one will ever buy a used VanVan for £2.5k from you. Laughing

Plus, OP probably doesn't even have a helmet and gloves = which is the least minimum of what you should have, no matter what.

There you go: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/cg125-/261901463527?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cfa8b2fe7 and you can have some fun making it nice again. Thumbs Up

Or even this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CG-125-BR-K-Cafe-Racer-Style-/291477579044?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43dd6ae524 Thumbs Up
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