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| Bluing |
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Bluing
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 Posted: 18:51 - 17 Aug 2015  Post subject: Consequences of ignoring fork seal problem |
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I have a used CG125 I bought recently for learning (learning to ride, not to be a bike mechanic). As a whole, it's roadworthy enough.
I have, however, noticed a problem on one of the forks. At some point one fork has lost a lot of oil through its seal. It must have happened some time ago, as the leaked oil deposit is just thick black grime around the inside leg of the fork, and there's a lot of it. There is no wet oil around the shiny bit. I believe this is probably because there is no oil left in that fork. I doubt whether anyone has ever paid attention to the forks, and I don't want to be the first.
I really don't want to do any serious work, especially dismantling and filling that fork up with new oil. As far as I'm concerned, the mechanics bit is the worst part of motorcycle ownership. I don't want to waste any money on the bike either, other than what's absolutely necessary to keep it legal and roadworthy. After all, I don't know how much time I will need on the bike or how many tries I will need before I pass my tests.
My question is, is there an easy bodge to keep it more or less OK? As mentioned, visually it seems a lot of oil seeped out some time ago, and there's no reason to believe there's any oil remaining in one fork, but the other seems fine. Functionally, at the moment it doesn't seem to suffer any problem that I can notice, as a result of the problem fork. If not, can I just continue as before, and ignore the problem? |
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| Nobby the Bastard |
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Nobby the Bastard
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Ste
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Posted: 19:38 - 17 Aug 2015  Post subject: |
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If it's run out of oil to leak then the problem done fixed itself. 
My concern would be regarding fork oil contaminating the brake pads.
Fixing a leaking fork isn't a waste of money. |
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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Posted: 19:44 - 17 Aug 2015  Post subject: Re: Consequences of ignoring fork seal problem |
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| Bluing wrote: |
My question is, is there an easy bodge to keep it more or less OK? As mentioned, visually it seems a lot of oil seeped out some time ago, and there's no reason to believe there's any oil remaining in one fork, but the other seems fine. Functionally, at the moment it doesn't seem to suffer any problem that I can notice, as a result of the problem fork. If not, can I just continue as before, and ignore the problem? |
Yes there is. It's called putting in some kitchen towels on the stanchions under the dust seals. Then cable tying a plastic bag also full of kitchen towels to the fork leg.
Before anybody gets sanctimonious. I did this on my NTV650, my XJ600 AND my steel frame CBR. Craig did it on his CB450DX with rolled up kitchen roll under the dust seals. He passed his MOT.
HOWEVER it is NOT risk free. As one day when I was training Froggy how to corner with him on his hornet and me on my NTV the front fork seal burst and sprayed oil all over the front brake disc (which is why I suggest bagging it bagging it will attract VOSA and police eyes though). This couldn't have happened at a worse time. As I was having a knife fight with a bloke on an R6 on Snake pass going towards Glossop and had no front brake. That got hairy.
My personal advice? Change the fork seals (and bushes). On a CG125 which has very basic sliding non adjustable forks it is a fairly messy but 2 hour job.
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
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| Islander |
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Islander
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| Posted: 19:51 - 17 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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It's not a hard job to fit new seals (bushes are a good idea too) really and it's not expensive either.
It'll only fail an MOT if the tester notices that the fork is leaking/empty. If the other one is still damping then he probably won't.
So you could clean off the oil residues and ignore it or you could strip and clean the forks and fix it. I'd fix it if it were me.  |
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| Bluing |
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Bluing
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| Posted: 20:05 - 17 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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Thanks for the input.
Agreed, it's not a difficult job from a mechanical pov, but messy and unpleasant and all I have on my mind is learning to shift gears and move at low speed. Doing servicing on motor vehicles is like cooking. You need all the ingredients ready (tools, spanners, oil, bushes, seals) i.e. search for them first on Ebay or ask in Halfords, something never quite goes to plan (rusted bolt, discovery of more problems, etc) and you always discover you need to pop out again and buy some tool you're missing in the middle of it. Life is too short for that kind of stuff and keeping a well-stocked private garage to keep a CG on the road to learn basic motorcycling maneuvres so that I can eventually get a licence would be overkill.
So, as it wouldn't seem to be dangerous in itself, and it's not having any noticeable effect on handling right now, it seems the main risks are brake pad contamination and MOT failure. The MOT isn't due for a long time, so I guess in the interim it would be OK to just wipe off the residue marks. There wouldn't seem to be any use in stuffing rags or bags down it, as oil definitely isn't coming up any more. I think it's all gone.
Regarding the brakes, it's the drum brake model (drums are fully enclosed and protected from the elements) and the shoes seem to be newish or at least serviced. I think the brakes are about as good as drum brakes could be.
So that's decided then. For now, do nothing. As long as there won't be any sudden unexpected behaviour from the bike on the road, that's fine with me. |
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mudcow007
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Bluing
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| Posted: 20:46 - 17 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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| mentalboy wrote: | | Bluing wrote: | Life is too short...
So, as it wouldn't seem to be dangerous in itself...
For now, do nothing. As long as there won't be any sudden unexpected behaviour from the bike on the road, that's fine with me. |
Ask yourself why they put oil in forks. I'll give you a starter, it's not to keep fast moving parts lubed like engine oil.
Nobody said that there won't be any consequences from running with one fork empty, most of us like to keep suspension, bearings and brakes, etc in reasonable order because we like to concentrate on the other idiots out there rather than wonder if the bike will make it through the next pothole with us in one piece ('Bodyguard' excepted).
Itchy was referring not to dry forks but to leaking forks, which will take an age to lose all their fluid especially if it's being topped up.
Maintaining a bike is probably something worth considering because it's YOUR arse on the seat not ours. |
Let's cut out the exaggeration and rhetoric for a little while. I have a feeling we're both quite good at that. How about saving it for a nice discussion somewhere about the "importance of hi-vis" or something like that.
Can you be more specific about the actual risk involved in having one fork dry? Most of the damping should come from the spring not the oil. If one fork is OK then overall, since the bike won't exceed 60mph, there wouldn't be any massive difference in damping or any serious danger, I would have thought. |
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Nobby the Bastard
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 21:18 - 17 Aug 2015  Post subject: Re: Consequences of ignoring fork seal problem |
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| Bluing wrote: | Consequences of ignoring fork seal problem |
Lack of damping in the suspension, means that your tyres don't grip the road, cos suspension not keeping them pressed against the tarmac;
You brake for a corner / junction / smidsy.. tyre locks rather than slows... YOU CRASH....
Insurance company decide, after paying out however much in 3rd Party Damages, that knowingly using a vehicle in an unroadworthy condition, you are 100% liable for the accident, and in breach of contract, with them, by using vehicle in defective condition, so they persue you through the claims courts for any and all losses; what they have had to pay out to 3rd parties, plus legal costs, plus admin, plus whatever else they can get away with; meanwhile, Plod, persue you for careless driving & knowingly using a vehicle in an unroadworethy condition....
How about that lot.....
Of course.. possibly as likely, the rest of bike, just as neglected and abused, while you try and ignore any faults that might take time, money or effort to fix?... might just conk out one day, and be a bit bouncy when you have to push it up the kerbs to get it home....
It's a fault, it NEEDS sorting, it wouldn't pass an MOT in its current state... so you putting yourself and others at risk.... for what?
Takes about an hour, two at most to fix fork seals; £5's worth of seals, and £10's worth of oil; one 8mm allen key and a 17mm spanner. Its not difficult, its not expensive, so what are you 'saving' yourself for the risks you are taking NOT sorting the fucker out, and MAYBE actually having a bike, that's not only 'safe' but actually rather a lot more comfy and nicer to ride?
Bikes are NOT tolerant vehicles. They stay on the road and dont crash, by a miracle of competing forces being held in balance, and anything that ent doing its job, tyres, steering, suspension, brakes, is making that job harder, if not impossible... and consequences of ignoring shit that gives you the best chance of keeping them competing forces in check is NOT a great idea, cos when the balance tips, you are on the outside, about to get squished by whatever is about to squish you.
The 'Fault' here is not the forks... its your 'attitude' in even THINKING that you can ignore shit like this, just cos lazy tight-wad... sort it, AND the forks.. AND if you have any sense, any other little faults the bike has you hope wont matter! Tyres, steering, suspension, brakes..... maybe the engine oil, spark-plug, air-filter, Chain & Sporockets.. all very easy, not that expensive, not particularly time consuming, and make the bike SAFE, as well as reliable, as well as comfortable, and frequently an awful lot faster too.
To get you started on the forks, see this; HOW2: Overhaul the front forks / Replace fork Seals
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mentalboy
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MarJay
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| Posted: 21:20 - 17 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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| Bluing wrote: | Can you be more specific about the actual risk involved in having one fork dry? Most of the damping should come from the spring not the oil. If one fork is OK then overall, since the bike won't exceed 60mph, there wouldn't be any massive difference in damping or any serious danger, I would have thought. |
Ok chap, don't worry, we've seen this before. You aren't the first to ask a question on here then baww when the answer you get is not what you want.
Forks need damping, otherwise you'll pogo around and find that the bike won't hold a line in corners. You could hit a bump, the tyre could skip and you could end up crashing. Crashing could be into a convenient pile of pillows, it could be into a hedge, it could be into a bus shelter full of nuns, or it could be into the path of an oncoming aggregate lorry. The long and the short of it is the bike was designed to have oil in both legs. By eschewing the mechanical part of motorcycling you're basically trying to ignore what every rider instinctively knows: If you ride an unroadworthy machine then you aren't safe.
That is not to say motorcycling is safe, but most normal right thinking motorcyclists will do their damnedest to reduce those risks as far as possible. That includes keeping their machine in a good condition.
Don't like that answer? Fine, ride like that and see if we care.
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another. |
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Itchy
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Bluing
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Posted: 21:34 - 17 Aug 2015  Post subject: |
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| MarJay wrote: | | Bluing wrote: | Can you be more specific about the actual risk involved in having one fork dry? Most of the damping should come from the spring not the oil. If one fork is OK then overall, since the bike won't exceed 60mph, there wouldn't be any massive difference in damping or any serious danger, I would have thought. |
Ok chap, don't worry, we've seen this before. You aren't the first to ask a question on here then baww when the answer you get is not what you want.
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You seem to be under the misapprehension that being a sneering, condescending and arrogant oaf means you are obviously an expert of some sort. Dare I say I am tempted by your answer to arrive at my own assumptions about you. You live on a council estate, have a sports bike and a well-stocked garage full of tools. Not far wrong, am I?
With a little education and little more respect and humility, you would realise that asking for a more SPECIFIC answer than the absurd biker hyperbole I received in response to my question about the ACTUAL risk has nothing to doing with bawling or "bawwing"[sic]. You probably missed this at school - maybe you should have spent more time there. But hey you got your Gixxer and your licence, most probably. So here's your moment of glory. I have neither.
| Quote: | Forks need damping, otherwise you'll pogo around and find that the bike won't hold a line in corners. You could hit a bump, the tyre could skip and you could end up crashing. |
This thread is clearly beyond your capacity to understand. Nobody here is questioning the fact that "forks need damping", you utter fool.
| Quote: | That is not to say motorcycling is safe, but most normal right thinking motorcyclists will do their damnedest to reduce those risks as far as possible. That includes keeping their machine in a good condition. |
Please, if you don't have a brain don't attempt to answer my simple question about what the actual consequences of missing oil in one fork might be. Do you think I'm on BCF to hear "we keep roadworthy machines because we value our souls" from some random roofing contractor or something? Sod off. |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 21:43 - 17 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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| Bluing wrote: | Can you be more specific about the actual risk involved in having one fork dry? Most of the damping should come from the spring not the oil. If one fork is OK then overall, since the bike won't exceed 60mph, there wouldn't be any massive difference in damping or any serious danger, I would have thought. |
Bump strikes wheel, causing deflection force; the fork reacts to that force with a combined suspension force, from both spring AND damper.
Spring reacts to force with compression... more force, more the spring compresses.
Damper reacts with a force proportional the the bump 'speed'.. more speed, = more force.
Damping is the 'primary' mechanism for reacting bump force; without it, all the bump has to be reacted by the spring, which will compress to whatever travel the applied force makes it...
Without the damping oil, this will always be much more than if the damping oil, 'damps' the amount of force the spring sees BUT, a small fast bump, will apply as much force to the suspension as a big slow one.
so imagine the wheel passing over a small road stone... say 12mm.. being small, wheel will be accelerated up the stone very quickly, so you get a big suspension force, that is likely to compress the forks a LOT more than the height of the stone... result? wheel leaves the ground, like evil Knievil off a jump-ramp....
Lacking damping, to 'absorb' bump energy, whatever force gets put on the spring... gets put back again when the spring rebounds... imagine that just as the tyre is about to 'land' again.... you now have a wheel, bouncing like a rubber ball on and off the tarmac.... the bike pitching about over the top of it, all teh bump energy NOT being turned into heat and dissipated by the damping oil, so instead shaking the shit out of you, your fillings, the headstock bearings and all the nuts and bolts in your bike.....
OK, now lwts apply that to just one fork leg; Each leg can compress independently of the other... so wheel strikes bump, half the force goes to one leg, half goes to the other... leg without oil tries to compress more than leg with oil... resulting in the wheel trying to 'twist' between the forks.... NOW, bikes turn by tilting... tilting the wheel will try and steer the bike, so every bump is tyring to make the bike steer...
Wheels going up and down, 'skipping' along the road, not really keeping a good grip on the tarmac..... but, because one fork legs trying to move more than t'other, its not just bouncing up and down, but side to side... SO... you have a bike not just pitching about over the uncontrolled suspension, but weaving from side to side as well.. all only notionally connected to the tarmac, breifly, between bounces.
60mph? That is as fast as ANY vehicle is allowed to go in this country... except for the elevated limit permitted on duel carriageways... WHY on EARTH would you think that this 'restricted' speed would in ANY WAY make the problem 'less' of a problem?
MOST accidents, occur in 30mph limit zones at less than 30mph, and on a bike thats bouncing and wobbling about from a shagged suspension fork, JUST as likely to cause you hurt on your 125 as if it was on my 750!!!!
Get the fucker sorted!!! This isn't safety nazi shit, this is common fucking SENSE!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Nobby the Bastard
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Bluing
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| Posted: 21:55 - 17 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | OK, now lwts apply that to just one fork leg; Each leg can compress independently of the other... so wheel strikes bump, half the force goes to one leg, half goes to the other... leg without oil tries to compress more than leg with oil... resulting in the wheel trying to 'twist' between the forks.... NOW, bikes turn by tilting... tilting the wheel will try and steer the bike, so every bump is tyring to make the bike steer... |
Thanks for your explanation. I appreciate it.
The way you explained it makes sense and is reasonable. What I'm not sure about is why the bike seems to be 'normal' when I ride it. One fork is probably depressing with each bump more than the other. So it should be twisting the wheel, as you say, and making the bike turn. However, I don't notice this effect at all. Why should this effect, if present, be so negligible? If it handles the way it does right now for the rest of the time I have it, that would be fine. I guess what I'm saying is, I would like to bar the risk, or at least be fairly sure that there won't be unexpected effects (i.e. changes to handling) while moving. Because to date it seems fine despite the problem.
| Quote: |
Get the fucker sorted!!! This isn't safety nazi shit, this is common fucking SENSE! |
That may be the case. I don't know. I have a feeling we are both emotional about the same matter because I dislike maintenance and garage stuff but you like it. But taking 2 steps back, while you like tasks like these and I dislike them, a fact separate from this is that safety matters with regard to motorcycles are grossly exaggerated in this country. The whole PPE and the lifesaver checks nobody seems to do but everyone clamours about. But my dodgy fork is more dangerous than all these twits speeding and wheelying? People including me buy CGs in the hope of minimising maintenance tasks. I don't think they worry about one weak fork in Cambodia. |
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Nobby the Bastard
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Ste
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| Posted: 21:57 - 17 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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J.M.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 10 years, 325 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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