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| Polarbear |
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Polarbear
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 Posted: 18:26 - 26 Aug 2015  Post subject: Isn't it time we had ID cards. |
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I know there are many arguments for and against but from my anarchistic days many years ago I am slowly coming round to the idea of compulsory ID cards.
First let me say not all singing and all dancing cards with your whole life history on them but a smart card with enough information on them to be able to ensure the carrier is the person in question.
My reasoning why -
I carry driving license, credit & debit cards. My Boat safety examiners ID card. Numerous loyalty cards. Mobile phone and quite often passport. Why shouldn't I carry an ID card.
We have to carry our passport while abroad to prove our ID, I don't see anyone moaning about that.
Kids have to show ID to prove they are old enough to enter pubs/nightclubs. Buy fags.
This was put in one of the other threads about migrants -
They know full well what life for an illegal immigrant will be like in the UK. None of this living in a tent crap that happens in France. Even the French blame us for making it too easy to get benefits and/or work illegally in the black market. They blame out decision to avoid ID cards too.
If everyone had to have an ID card surely it would be possible to start to get on top of the illegal immigrant status of so many workers in UK.
If you didn't carry your card and were stopped, a compulsory fine.
Have it linked with driving license, passport and you can get away with less.
Maybe I'm getting old and reactionary but if you've nothing to hide, whats the problem.
Tin hat is well and truly on 
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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Posted: 19:31 - 26 Aug 2015  Post subject: Re: Isn't it time we had ID cards. |
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| Polarbear wrote: | If everyone had to have an ID card surely it would be possible to start to get on top of the illegal immigrant status of so many workers in UK. |
What effect do you imagine that would have in practice?
So, you round up a bunch of Elbonian-sounding randoms that you suspect are illegals. They shrug and jabber away for a while until you get bored or their free legal representatives and translators rock up and advise them to zip it.
What do?
Today: begin the long and involved process of determining their real identity, showing that they have no right to remain, and proving where they came from to the extent required to convince immigration to actually send them back there, through all the layers of appeals, repeating as necessary every time they sneak back in with a new identity.
With mandatory ID: wag your finger because they don't have a card. Then begin the long and involved process of determining their real identity, showing that they have no right to remain, and proving where they came from to the extent required to convince immigration to actually send them back there, through all the layers of appeals, repeating as necessary every time they sneak back in with a new identity.
I can't think of anything that mandatory ID cards would do to address the substantial problem, which is that we seem to throw more resources at keeping illegals here than on turfing them out...
| Polarbear wrote: | If you didn't carry your card and were stopped, a compulsory fine. |
... but I can imagine that the main effect of compulsory ID will be to hand Dibble a stick with which to beat law abiding UK peons when he doesn't like the cut of our jib.
I'd be very careful what you wish for.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Im-a-Ridah |
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Im-a-Ridah
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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Posted: 19:50 - 26 Aug 2015  Post subject: |
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My current GF works with a lot of illegals. They are supposed to carry their ID cards with them at all times. Barely any of them carry them and it can take months to register them because they refuse to carry them. The law states that the HAVE TO CARRY THEM AT ALL TIMES.
They don't.
Secondly.
The British Colonial government introduced ID cards to the HK colony in 1951 after the CCP won the civil war in 1949.
Before the 1978 ICAC purge it caused a whole load of problems. Racial profiling was normal, dark skin? stopped and strip searched there and then. A very nasty trick the police did was to take a persons ID card burn it in front of their face then arrest them for not having an ID card. This doesn't happen so often now.
But today it essentially gives the police the power to stop you at any time and essentially S44 powers to stop, question and detain you. Don't like the look of you, then you get arrested. Funny enough in HK white people are being harassed for ID after the mainland Chinese crackdown of illegal teachers. They don't like it.
I don't like it. But why do I tolerate it? I tolerate it because the HK government gives me a fair amount of money every year just for being me. There is also oversight within the HK police force with a 97% trust rate after the 1978 purge. Think of it this way. A HK cop was investigated because he was given too much change by a shop keeper. Couple years ago a HK cop pulled a gun on a civilian after the civilian made rude remarks about his mother. The cop lost his job, his pension fund (not the general public fund) was emptied to pay for compensation.
I am also part of the 8 clans. Not a gangster group but an association of villagers which have disproportionate political power (the richest man in Asia is part of us). Remember Occupy HK they want to end our power. I rank somewhere in the middle top along with looking like the locals I never get stopped.
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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Posted: 19:55 - 26 Aug 2015  Post subject: |
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BTW employers are supposed to check for the right to work in the UK. They will scan your passport and NIC number.
A dodgy employer will simply pay cash and not keep any records. Hell they did any investigation on CH4 news about it. They secretly filmed when approached later they denied it completely.
The problem is do you really want to get rid of cash? A cashless society is checkmate for the bankers and allows the government to watch everything that you do.
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
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| Ste |
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Ste
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Posted: 20:07 - 26 Aug 2015  Post subject: |
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| ScaredyCat |
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ScaredyCat
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| RhynoCZ |
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RhynoCZ
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| Posted: 21:57 - 26 Aug 2015 Post subject: Re: Isn't it time we had ID cards. |
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| Polarbear wrote: | If everyone had to have an ID card surely it would be possible to start to get on top of the illegal immigrant status of so many workers in UK.
If you didn't carry your card and were stopped, a compulsory fine. |
This is exactly what most of the European countries have got at the moment. Does it really work? No it does not.
Even before 2004 (crap loads of countries joining the EU and the Schengen zone getting larger), people were smuggled into the country or they just did not leave the country once their visa expired. The employers, especially on construction sites, illegally were and still are hiring those people, because if you've got a illegal alien working for you, he doesn't really care if you pay the medical insurance and other expenses for him. Also, you don't really have to care about his health and safety, what's he gonna do, go tell on the employer? So the worker is cheap, very cheap, yet he's happy because he earns way more he could ever do in his home country, Ukraine and Vietnam mostly. Used to be more countries but since the Schengen zone got larger, most of the foreigners working here are here completely legally.
Now, In CZE for instance, every citizen 15+ has got to have his/her own ID card. It is not compulsory to carry it around, but if police asks you about your details, and you don't have the ID or there's not a single witness that could prove you are telling your true name etc. They can and with most of the foreigners they do, take you to the police station, where they run you through their database. If there's no record of you legally entering the country, then you go in front of the judge, that basically decides about your deportation.
The ID card has got your picture on it and states your name, surname, sex, date of birth, personal number (given to you at birth), nationality, date of expiry, document number (of the ID), the holder's signature, even place of birth, your domicile (address of where you live), your birth surname (in case you got married and took the surname of the spouse) and it even says if you are married or not (which was made not compulsory, not that long ago).
An ID for a foreigner would also mean his/her passport and/or the driver's licence, mostly in case of the EU citizens.
I do admit, my country is not as attractive as yours though. But UK is an island so it shouldn't be that hard to keep it ''clean''.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor |
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| Nytol |
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Nytol
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 08:18 - 27 Aug 2015 Post subject: Re: Isn't it time we had ID cards. |
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| RhynoCZ wrote: | If there's no record of you legally entering the country, then you go in front of the judge, that basically decides about your deportation. |
Deportation to where though?
If you don't say where you're from, and there's no evidence trail, do they just pick a random country based on what the illegal looks and sounds like?
This is an actual issue in the UK where smart illegals will just say nothing except to claim that they're all hulking hairy 15 year olds and thus get even more advocacy in their favour.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| DrSnoosnoo |
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DrSnoosnoo
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| RhynoCZ |
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RhynoCZ
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| Posted: 09:04 - 27 Aug 2015 Post subject: Re: Isn't it time we had ID cards. |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | | RhynoCZ wrote: | If there's no record of you legally entering the country, then you go in front of the judge, that basically decides about your deportation. |
Deportation to where though?
If you don't say where you're from, and there's no evidence trail, do they just pick a random country based on what the illegal looks and sounds like?
This is an actual issue in the UK where smart illegals will just say nothing except to claim that they're all hulking hairy 15 year olds and thus get even more advocacy in their favour. |
The whole deportation process is a bit more complicated than that. Of course, that if there's no country to deport someone to, then he can't be deported. But that's just a negligible percentage of them.
It's not like the police can bother you whenever they feel bored. There's always a reasonable cause. If, for instance, there was commited a crime in the area, if you look like a person that's wanted, when you commit a offense etc. Oddly enough, ID is not required when you drive a car, you've got your driver's licence there to prove who you are.
A typical scenario would be police doing a raid on illegals. There are places, parts of towns where there's a higher density of foreigners.
EDIT: Back in the day, before 1989 it was compulsory to carry around your ID, the ID back then also stated whether you were a student or employed somewhere and the address of the place. If you were caught skipping school or work, you had a problem. That's where the myth of carrying the ID around today comes from, I guess.
____________________
'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor |
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| mentalboy |
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mentalboy
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| Posted: 09:55 - 27 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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Most of us already carry an ID card.
For those that have not noticed, or are too young, your driving licence now sports a fantastically flattering photo of yourself and your date of birth is now obvious (meaning you don't have to decipher your driver's number to find it). It is adorned with a whole raft anti-counterfeit goodies which make it appealing as proof of your identity for places like banks and night clubs, etc.
You'll have noted by now that the counterpart is redundant and that although it isn't a requirement to carry the card, most people seem to. You must show it if you are stopped in/on your vehicle when asked to do so by a police officer or go through the ballache of a seven day producer.
How long do the naysayers think it'll be before it becomes a requirement to carry your licence at all times (or some other card for non-driver's issued by the Department of Verifying Legal Anybody's  ), a few more sneaky moves and we'll be there before you know it?
The US is another country where the introduction of ID cards is highly resisted - what they don't seem to realise is that their driving licences are now ID cards. If you drive then it is a requirement that you carry your licence (and insurance), nearly everybody outside of the largest cities has to drive by the very nature of the way the society is set up and the driving agencies in each state are also responsible for issuing cards to non-drivers. Many (if not all, nowadays) states use the 'RealID' system whereby licences are of standards verified by the Department of Homeland Security meaning you now need a card if you have any kind of dealings with Federal bodies and many establishments will make life awkward if you can't show a driving licence as proof. BUT NO, they don't have ID cards either 
As an aside, there has been a right stink recently in Florida because the police have been using mobile phone tracking equipment (mostly because the set-up drains a phone's battery much quicker than normal, as the phone is busy sending GPS signals to the tracker  ). They may not know exactly who you are but they where to find your 'smart' phone, if you have one! |
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| angryjonny |
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angryjonny
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| RhynoCZ |
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RhynoCZ
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| Posted: 10:32 - 27 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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| mentalboy wrote: | How long do the naysayers think it'll be before it becomes a requirement to carry your licence at all times (or some other card for non-driver's issued by the Department of Verifying Legal Anybody's ), a few more sneaky moves and we'll be there before you know it? |
I can already see a union of non-drivers screaming, that it is discrimination and against the basic human rights. Let's just put a yellow star on every non-driver and a pink star on every foreigner. 
The system you are talking about would not work. The other way around, as it is in most of the EU countries, as I was saying before, it would. When you are 15 you are just forced to obtain the ID card, then it's up to you whether you obtain a driver's license, a gun licence or any other piece of paper sealed up in plastic, or a plastic card that states your details and is a recognized proof of your identity, by law.
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'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 11:16 - 27 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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| mentalboy wrote: | although it isn't a requirement to carry the card, most people seem to. |
[citation needed]
It's likely gone up a bit now that the counterpart's been shredded, but on a straw poll of Chateaux Borg drivers, it's 50/50, and that only because I've been test riding bikes. Oh, and that's not my "real" copy, it's a "lost" one. Must have been in my wallet all the time, eh.
| mentalboy wrote: | go through the ballache of a seven day producer. |
Which is a vital protection for us citizens.
We have more than enough pointless paperwork prove-your-innocence absolute offences as it is. Please let's not slip any further down that slope.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| smegballs |
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smegballs
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Posted: 11:57 - 27 Aug 2015  Post subject: |
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Here we have it folks, just another one of the pleasant stations visited by the diversity train!! (and another reason why, right or left governments, the train won't be stopping for some time yet).
Similar to the 'war on terror', the 'immigration crisis' is a good way of bringing in restrictive and authoritarian legislation as a means of controlling 'the problem'. Of course it's also a very effective means of controlling the general populace too, which [rustles tin foil] is of course it's primary purpose.
You also, like the WoT, get to call out critics as enemies of this green and pleasant land: "Don't wan't to be forced to carry ID? It's almost like you want the immigrants to win!!"
It's a case of allowing/helping problem to occur, then using that to leverage legislation based on the need to treat the problem. A good example is the "fast and furious operation" in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal |
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| ScaredyCat |
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ScaredyCat
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| mentalboy |
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mentalboy
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| Posted: 10:13 - 28 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | | mentalboy wrote: | although it isn't a requirement to carry the card, most people seem to. |
[citation needed]
It's likely gone up a bit now that the counterpart's been shredded, but on a straw poll of Chateaux Borg drivers, it's 50/50, and that only because I've been test riding bikes. Oh, and that's not my "real" copy, it's a "lost" one. Must have been in my wallet all the time, eh.
| mentalboy wrote: | go through the ballache of a seven day producer. |
Which is a vital protection for us citizens.
We have more than enough pointless paperwork prove-your-innocence absolute offences as it is. Please let's not slip any further down that slope. |
Whilst some might resist popping their driving licence in their wallets where do you suppose most people keep credit card sized pieces of plastic with that kind of info on it nowadays, especially the younger generations (but also increasingly older folks too) who now find shops asking for ID to sell them alcohol. I don't carry much plastic in my wallet if I can help it but my licence has lived in my wallet purely by default, if I put it someplace 'safe' I'd probably lose it in amongst the reams of paperwork old scroats seem to acquire.
Prior to the introduction of credit card type licence mine would live in the reams of paperwork and journey out only when I knew it was needed.
I don't agree with compulsory ID card carrying, my post was trying to point out that we seem to be losing the fight against it and most people seem to be oblivious to it. |
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Rogerborg
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Im-a-Ridah
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Harold_Shand
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mentalboy
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RhynoCZ
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Im-a-Ridah
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| Posted: 00:18 - 30 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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| Harold_Shand wrote: | Some people may find it inconvinient to carry a card, perhaps it would be better if we asked for chips to be planted, perhaps on the back of our hands. |
The problem is that these often use the crappiest cryptography going. For some bizarre reason they try to implement their own algorithms, which then fall fast to cryptanalysis. The "crptyo1" cipher in MiFare classic is a good example. It's a strange thing to do considering there are really brilliant algorithms in the public domain, developed by people who really do know what they are doing, and still haven't been cracked.
Crypto1
Crypto1 is a proprietary encryption algorithm created by NXP Semiconductors specifically for Mifare RFID tags, including Oyster card, CharlieCard and OV-chipkaart. Recent cryptographic research[1][2][3][4][5] has shown that, "the security of this cipher is ... close to zero".
And now for public domain crypto...
Rijndael (AES)
The first key-recovery attacks on full AES were due to Andrey Bogdanov, Dmitry Khovratovich, and Christian Rechberger, and were published in 2011.[27]... It requires 2126.1 operations to recover an AES-128 key... This is a very small gain, as a 126-bit key (instead of 128-bits) would still take billions of years. Also, the authors calculate the best attack using their technique on AES with a 128 bit key requires storing 288 bits of data. That works out to about 38 trillion terabytes of data, which is more than all the data stored on all the computers on the planet.
Serpent
Serpent took a conservative approach to security, opting for a large security margin: the designers deemed 16 rounds to be sufficient against known types of attack, but specified 32 rounds as insurance against future discoveries in cryptanalysis. The official NIST report on AES competition classified Serpent as having a high security margin along with MARS and Twofish, in contrast to the adequate security margin of RC6 and Rijndael (currently AES)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Encryption_Standard#Security
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_%28cipher%29 |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 11 years, 25 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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