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Sgt Blackman appeal for funds for legal help.

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staffo
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PostPosted: 11:11 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Sgt Blackman appeal for funds for legal help. Reply with quote
https://www.justiceforsgtblackman.co.uk/

Quote:
Sgt Alexander Blackman was ‘Marine A’, a veteran Royal Marines commando who shot a dying Taliban gunman in Afghanistan in 2011, and is believed to be the only British serviceman to have been convicted of murder on the battlefield. He and his family and friends believe he is the victim of a miscarriage of justice, and are launching a fresh appeal against his conviction and life prison sentence. They aim to have his conviction reduced to manslaughter. For anyone who wishes to contribute to the legal fees for Sgt Blackman and his wife Claire, a fighting fund - ‘Justice For Sgt Blackman’ – has been set up, spearheaded by thriller writer Frederick Forsyth.


So many problems with this case, ending with the murder verdict.

Quick round up -

Arrow Jury made up of officers, some remf's (no experience of combat). Not impartial as pressure was applied to return a guilty verdict (and if you want that promotion...)

Arrow Full colonel resigns over the case, after he was not allowed to give mitigating evidence.

Arrow Defence team seems like they wanted the guilty decision, with extremely poor decisions.

Arrow Political pressure for a guilty verdict, with Cameron meeting the Afghan president days after.

Arrow No proof that the ‘victim’ was alive at the time.

Arrow No manslaughter due to mitigating evidence charge offered.


For me, is the Talib was alive, manslaughter maximum. When you understand what its like living in a Check Point, with 8 men, surrounded by Taliban, attacked daily, seeing your buddies die, seeing their bodies mutilated and hanging in trees, you cannot expect that person to react perfectly, and then try them as if they had done it in the UK on the street.

If Talib was dead, then its a non case.




https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11857635/Royal-Marine-Alexander-Blackman-made-scapegoat-over-Afghan-murder-conviction.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3233267/In-powerfully-moving-interview-Sgt-Blackman-s-wife-reveals-imprisonment-murder-devastated-life-too.html

Edit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Helmand_Province_incident

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26965823 Laughing
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 11:17 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Agreed that the case was dead bent, but citing the Telegraph and the Mail for references doesn't really add much to its credence Laughing
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 11:17 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Even if he was alive it's not really manslaughter. They were on a battlefield. The other guy tried to kill him. Eliminate the threat.
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staffo
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PostPosted: 11:20 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
nowhere.elysium wrote:
Agreed that the case was dead bent, but citing the Telegraph and the Mail for references doesn't really add much to its credence Laughing


Haha, yeah fair point. Not really ment as references, just more futher reading if you had managed not to hear about it.
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staffo
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PostPosted: 11:25 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Even if he was alive it's not really manslaughter. They were on a battlefield. The other guy tried to kill him. Eliminate the threat.


Under the rules of enagement it is. If he had a gun in his hand, you can shoot, if not, or if he drops it and runs away you cant. You have to wait for him to have another go at killing you.

We even had trouble calling in mortars for a sniper setting up and aiming at us, as he had not fired yet. In the end all we could get was smoke to scare him off. Amazing.
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staffo
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ah yeah, forgot to mention. This is being debated in the House of Commons tomorrow.

Probably the first and only time I’ll be temped to watch BBC parliament...



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34217252
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 12:10 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Even if he was alive it's not really manslaughter. They were on a battlefield. The other guy tried to kill him. Eliminate the threat.


Except killing of those out of the fight, the wounded/surrendered etc is a war crime.

No quarter has been a war crime since 1953. Namely because if there is no quarter in battle it extends wars and battles. OTOH perfidy pretending to be wounded is also a war crime...

It generally came from the 1942 order from Hitler of commandos to be executed when captured. In that it is not on.

It is also a very well lesson learned from history. If people are given no chance to surrender. These people have absolutely nothing to lose and become incredibly dangerous in a battle. The Total war series even does this. When you completely surround an enemy unit they their banner flashes and it says fighting to the death.
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 12:32 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
I suspect the guy might have been bigging himself up. The Taliban might have already been dead, about to die or saveable. "Check me out, I'm well 'ard, gonna off this guy..."

In reality, a small force cannot afford to take prisoners and leaving a lightly-wounded combatant to his own devices is also not clever. Taking prisoners has always been a luxury.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:10 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Who ratted him out and why?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Go Pro grassed him up!! Shocked
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 13:34 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
In the 'civilised' world..... always need to save a life etc etc. Can't go killing muh woundeds.

In the real world:..... Let's say he survives. He's bleeding out on the floor in pain for a while till getting medevac'd. Goes to hospital, then best case gets transferred to an afghan prison where he rots in terrible conditions for being a militant. Worst case he gets out of custody and doubles down on his militant schemes.

So if you feel optimistic, he suffers a terrible life in jail, If you are pessimistic he resumes endangering the lives of others. Some choice....

Bullet to the brain is optimal solution, removes dangerous person while minimizing said person's human suffering.

Let's say you were there? Would you like a life of gitmo/generic hole in ground or the bullet? Bullet for me every time.
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Nexus Icon
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PostPosted: 13:37 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sounds like he went a bit mental - especially if he thought giving a little speech and shooting a dead guy was a 'sane' thing to do - so it's probably for the best if he's kept entertained for a few years.
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Nexus Icon
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PostPosted: 13:39 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:
In the 'civilised' world..... always need to save a life etc etc. Can't go killing muh woundeds.

In the real world:..... Let's say he survives. He's bleeding out on the floor in pain for a while till getting medevac'd. Goes to hospital, then best case gets transferred to an afghan prison where he rots in terrible conditions for being a militant. Worst case he gets out of custody and doubles down on his militant schemes.

So if you feel optimistic, he suffers a terrible life in jail, If you are pessimistic he resumes endangering the lives of others. Some choice....

Bullet to the brain is optimal solution, removes dangerous person while minimizing said person's human suffering.

Let's say you were there? Would you like a life of gitmo/generic hole in ground or the bullet? Bullet for me every time.


Ahhhhh, if only he hadn't claimed that the guy was already dead and that he was just putting a bullet in a corpse.
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staffo
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PostPosted: 14:23 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Who ratted him out and why?

MP found the video while conducting another investigation, then reported it. Wanker. Why, for that next promotion.

mpd wrote:

One interesting comment was that the fighter could have already been dead. Under the Geneva Convention, shooting an already dead combatant is also breaking it, by desecration of a body or something similar to that.


Yeah, but it doesn’t come with 10 years in prison. A Canadian soldier was prosecuted with a mercy killing, shooting a wounded taliban to kill him. He was just discharged from the military. Falklands and Gulf war 1 this was common practice.

nexus wrote:

Sounds like he went a bit mental - especially if he thought giving a little speech and shooting a dead guy was a 'sane' thing to do - so it's probably for the best if he's kept entertained for a few years.


A bit mental? He was pushed to the edge. Past it, and fucked up. 10 years in prision though?

[/quote]
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:38 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
The only people who should judge him are people who have been through the same things he has.

If he is then found guilty I would have less argument than with people applying peacetime attitudes to a wartime situation.
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staffo
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PostPosted: 14:45 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
The only people who should judge him are people who have been through the same things he has.

If he is then found guilty I would have less argument than with people applying peacetime attitudes to a wartime situation.


Yeah thats it. Thats the main problem I have with the Jury. All were officers, no enlisted Warrent Officers which there could of been. With some being Navy who have never seen combat.

The were also not given the whole story, and one has said there was pressure to deliver the guility verdict...
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 15:45 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tricky one, this. I remember when the story first broke and seeing the video. I don't know if it had been edited, but it appeared to show him shooting dead a wounded man and taking a degree of satisfaction in doing so. If they were non-combatants and the video was a fair representation it would be murder, no argument. To my mind it depends when a soldier stops being a combatant - is it once they are on the plane home or when nobody is in the process of trying to kill them? Context is the key and we don't know what happened immediately beforehand or what was going on around them.

People have been killing prisoners since the first caveman raised a club. You could argue that it is a reasonable and necessary thing to do in wartime, or alternatively that in the 21st century we should have better ways of dealing with injured troops irrespective of theatre.

It does sound like the system decided the verdict prior to testimony, which in the bigger picture is the greater crime....
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 15:55 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
staffy50 wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Even if he was alive it's not really manslaughter. They were on a battlefield. The other guy tried to kill him. Eliminate the threat.


Under the rules of enagement it is. If he had a gun in his hand, you can shoot, if not, or if he drops it and runs away you cant. You have to wait for him to have another go at killing you.

We even had trouble calling in mortars for a sniper setting up and aiming at us, as he had not fired yet. In the end all we could get was smoke to scare him off. Amazing.


Maybe so, but as far as I'm concerned he's justified. I'd feel justified if I was him too. I'm not saying what he did was legal, I'm saying what he did was right. Personally, I'd let him go.

Itchy wrote:
he other guy tried to kill him. Eliminate the threat.


Except killing of those out of the fight, the wounded/surrendered etc is a war crime.

No quarter has been a war crime since 1953. Namely because if there is no quarter in battle it extends wars and battles. OTOH perfidy pretending to be wounded is also a war crime...

It generally came from the 1942 order from Hitler of commandos to be executed when captured. In that it is not on.

It is also a very well lesson learned from history. If people are given no chance to surrender. These people have absolutely nothing to lose and become incredibly dangerous in a battle. The Total war series even does this. When you completely surround an enemy unit they their banner flashes and it says fighting to the death.[/quote]

Oh the Tablibanni was in a military uniform was he? Or dressed as a civilian and engaged in combat? Wink
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Tdibs
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PostPosted: 17:04 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
You just think why incriminate yourself so much though if you are running a helmet cam.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:14 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
He shot someone who was trying (or had tried) to shoot him. Big deal.
Diggs wrote:
it appeared to show him shooting dead a wounded man and taking a degree of satisfaction in doing so.

He'll have seen limbs of deaded British troops hung in trees by talibans. With that in mind I can see what he might not have been greeting that taliban by shaking hands and giving the guy a brief summary of his human rights. Wink
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 17:32 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Oh the Tablibanni was in a military uniform was he? Or dressed as a civilian and engaged in combat? Wink



Well since you want to go this route... he was a terrorist/taliban right coz if we label them all terrorists and Taliban then we can kill anybody and everybody and justify it?

Kind of like the US 2nd drone strike policy where they drone strike somebody. If somebody goes to help they bomb them again, cos anybody who helps has to be a terrorist right?

You know why there is dislike of such behaviour? It is because western powers are supposed to be accountable and hold themselves to a higher standard of behaviour. We are supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard of behaviour to prevent the outrage effect whereby kill one but recruit 50 more who are outraged.

You really want to go back to how the USMC acted in Vietnam. Go look at the winter soldier testimonies, which is why the US lost the Vietnam war.
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Last edited by Itchy on 17:33 - 15 Sep 2015; edited 1 time in total
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 17:32 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
What happens in Theatre should stay in Theatre. If the people around him think it is out of order then a jury of his peers should pass verdict. His peers are those who have served in the Theatre.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Skudd wrote:
What happens in Theatre should stay in Theatre. If the people around him think it is out of order then a jury of his peers should pass verdict. His peers are those who have served in the Theatre.



Quote:
Stephen Craig: "...My testimony covers the maltreatment of prisoners, the suspects actually, and a convoy running down an old woman with no reason at all..."
Rusty Sachs: "...my testimony concerns the leveling of villages for no valid reason, throwing Viet Cong suspects from the aircraft after binding them and gagging them with copper wire..."
Scott Camil: "...My testimony involves burning of villages with civilians in them, the cutting off of ears, cutting off of heads, torturing of prisoners, calling in of artillery on villages for games, corpsmen killing wounded prisoners..."
Kenneth Campbell: "...My testimony will consist of eyewitnessing and participating in the calling in of artillery on undefended villages, mutilation of bodies, killing of civilians, mistreatment of civilians..."
Fred Nienke: "...My testimony includes killing of non-combatants, destruction of Vietnamese property and livestock, use of chemical agents and the use of torture in interpreting prisoners..."



So this is absolutely okey kokey with you then? Cos it's just brown people right?
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 17:44 - 15 Sep 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Skudd wrote:
What happens in Theatre should stay in Theatre. If the people around him think it is out of order then a jury of his peers should pass verdict. His peers are those who have served in the Theatre.




So this is absolutely okey kokey with you then? Cos it's just brown people right?


So where does the racism come into it? I think it says more about you than it does about anyone else.

My family has plenty of brown people in it for it to be classed as multicultural, it even has people who like the same gender too, so your comments are offensive.
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