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| -Savage- |
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-Savage-
World Chat Champion
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
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 Posted: 18:25 - 05 Oct 2015  Post subject: Rich or lean? |
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Hi folks.
Fuel injected bike (2015 Royal Enfield), had been backfiring a wee bit. Replaced the Bosch spark plug with an NGK and it seemed to cure it.
I put on a new exhaust, much less restrictive, and now the bikes backfiring more and being a bit shitty so I would presume its running too lean.
However the old exhaust, and now the new exhaust are full of soot so I would have thought this was a symptom of being too rich?
Any ideas?
How much should a remap cost?
____________________
My Bikes - - - Royal Enfield 500 with sidecar, VFR800, CBR600FX,
Peugeot Speedfight 100, Kymco Hipster 125, GSXR750K5, Jawa TS 350 |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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Posted: 19:12 - 05 Oct 2015  Post subject: Re: Rich or lean? |
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| -Savage- wrote: | I put on a new exhaust, much less restrictive |
Did you have one of those hilarious stock ones that's more solid than hole?
I honestly don't know, do they have a lambda sensor?
| -Savage- wrote: | and now the bikes backfiring more and being a bit shitty so I would presume its running too lean. |
Plug tip oot for the lads.
| -Savage- wrote: | However the old exhaust, and now the new exhaust are full of soot so I would have thought this was a symptom of being too rich? |
Might just not be burning it off from an enriched startup. Short runs?
| -Savage- wrote: | How much should a remap cost? |
I'll be impressed if you find anyone who can do one.
Hitchocks say "No adjustment, pay beaucoup dollah for ... uh... 'power' commander"
https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-electrics-ignition
Conceivably you could just bin it and fit a carb, although I don't know how much of the electronomics you'd have to throw away with it. Amal for choice, or you're very welcome to my stock AVL carb (jetted for the stock exhaust  ) for postage monies if you want to give it a try.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Northern Monkey |
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Northern Monkey
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Joined: 17 Nov 2013
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| MCN |
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MCN
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| Posted: 22:32 - 05 Oct 2015 Post subject: |
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No Idea wot FI is fitted but it sounds like over-fueling if carborising.
Lean will run hot and Blue the pipes.
Possibly a air sensor pipe off.
Sensor wire off.
Airfilter collapsed.
ETC...
Dealer is???
NGK are 'the berries' ain't they. 
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Disclaimer: The comments above may be predicted text and not necessarily the opinion of MCN. |
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| MCN. |
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MCN.
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Posted: 22:33 - 05 Oct 2015  Post subject: |
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| MCN wrote: | No Idea wot FI is fitted but it sounds like over-fueling if carborising.
Lean will run hot and Blue the pipes.
Possibly a air sensor pipe off.
Sensor wire off.
Airfilter collapsed.
ETC...
Dealer is???
NGK are 'the berries' ain't they. |
Stop talking bollocks you odious wanker.
Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is a condition that affects social interaction, communication, interests and behaviour. It includes Asperger syndrome and childhood autism.
Some people also use the term autism spectrum condition or ‘neurodiverse’ (as opposed to people without autism being ‘neurotypical’).
The main features of ASD typically start to develop in childhood, although the impact of these may not be apparent until there is a significant change in the person’s life, such as a change of school.
In the UK, it's estimated that about one in every 100 people has ASD.
There is no 'cure' for ASD, but a wide range of treatments – including education and behaviour support – can help people with the condition |
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| Ariel Badger |
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Ariel Badger
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| Posted: 22:38 - 05 Oct 2015 Post subject: |
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This seems to have escalated rapidly 
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Bikers make great organ donors, get 115 on your licence today. |
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| -Savage- |
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-Savage-
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| Matt B |
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Matt B
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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Posted: 12:06 - 06 Oct 2015  Post subject: |
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| -Savage- wrote: | so the ECU can adapt to it. |
"Yeah, yeah, mate, they all do that at first, give it some time." <puffs on faaaaag, looks  >
The only way it can "adapt" is by sampling the throttle position, air flow and oxygen sensors, which it should be doing in real time. I very much doubt that there's any significant hysteresis in there beyond a few engine revolutions. A wide throttle openings it's likely to be open-loop anyway and running from a fixed map.
Carb's available if you want it although I'd guess that you'd need a CDI as well, and to rip off the FI, sensors, ECU and perhaps the fuel pump.
Bike looks spiffing. 
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| chris-red |
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chris-red
Have you considered a TDM?
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| stevo as b4 |
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stevo as b4
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| MCN |
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MCN
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| mentalboy |
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mentalboy
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 08:14 - 07 Oct 2015 Post subject: |
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| stevo as b4 wrote: | some ECU's that supposedly learn things like driving style etc |
Are you suggesting that there are ECUs out there that will ignore the instant inputs from the TPS, flow and oxygen sensors and deliberately mis-fuel?
Because that sounds, with respect and apology for the hyperbole, like Teflonian levels of bullshit in the context of the OP's vehicle.
I can just see a plausible argument that an auto-box might change its shift pattern. Barely conceivably, a drive-by-wire system could exaggerate the throttle inputs if it's learned that you've got a lead foot.
But altering the fuel-air mixture away from ideal? How, why, and to what possible end?
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| chris-red |
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chris-red
Have you considered a TDM?
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 10:39 - 07 Oct 2015 Post subject: |
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If you force me to believe that any rational engineer would design an ECU to deliberately ignore the inputs from its sensors because.... uh... I guess... reasons.... then I shall have no option but to put on a petted lip and have a bit of a hellkat-stylee sulk.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| mentalboy |
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mentalboy
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| -Savage- |
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-Savage-
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| MCN |
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MCN
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| stevo as b4 |
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stevo as b4
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Posted: 18:45 - 07 Oct 2015  Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: |
Are you suggesting that there are ECUs out there that will ignore the instant inputs from the TPS, flow and oxygen sensors and deliberately mis-fuel?
Because that sounds, with respect and apology for the hyperbole, like Teflonian levels of bullshit in the context of the OP's vehicle.
I can just see a plausible argument that an auto-box might change its shift pattern. Barely conceivably, a drive-by-wire system could exaggerate the throttle inputs if it's learned that you've got a lead foot.
But altering the fuel-air mixture away from ideal? How, why, and to what possible end? |
Whoah! steady on the stable door Rog, your Horse nearly bolted there! 
No I am not suggesting that any ECU with closed loop mapping, will ignore the sensor inputs, especially from the Lambda/02 sensor.
But ECU's do not change or adapt instantly to different fueling or ignition requirements from changing either fuel type or the inlet or exhaust system breathing from factory spec.
None of us know the type and level of sophistication built into the Enfield engine management system. But it is my understanding that on some car and bikes, if you disconnect the battery this removes any learnt changes from the ECU's memory, and thus it has to re-learn the new fuel/ignition mapping requirements to suit what it is working with.
The two things to bear in mind is that any engine management system will normally only allow a +/- % value in terms of fuel trims and ignition timing based on data it receives from sensors. If say an ECU's programmed strategy was to allow +/- 10% fueling, then for a simplistic example a slip on exhaust silencer should be compensated for in this way.
But radical inlet or exhaust system changes could need a massive fueling adjustment to give the best performance, as would other engine work like big cams, changed compression ratio's or serious cylinder head work.
And the second thing is that on many bikes and car's, closed loop fuel and ignition control is only used for certain conditions. Full throttle, full load and high rpm is in many instances referred to pre-programed maps developed by the manufacturer for these conditions.
There's many reasons why, but if a sensor failed or gave incorrect readings at full load full throttle conditions for more than a brief period then an engine could easily suffer detonation or massive overheating or even over fuelling and be destroyed in seconds.
We don't know what Enfields ECU does and how it is configured and programed, so unless BCF can find the engine development engineering team and obtain such info, who knows.
Lastly, even if an ECU can adapt to a different exhaust and induction system, there will always be gains to be had by aftermarket re-mapping to give greater performance. If you can not have to worry about emissions/mpg, fuel grade tolerance, poor servicing/maintainence, and ham fistedness of owners etc, along with less need for long term durability, then a re-map orientated to maximum performance over all other factors can produce very good gains in things like throttle response, mid range torque, and maximum power. |
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| stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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| Posted: 20:36 - 07 Oct 2015 Post subject: |
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When my enfield was popping and banging on the overrun, I ignored it for about a year.
When I finally investigated, it turned out the exhaust valve seat had come out of the head and was rattling about on top of the valve. It also had a broken oil control ring.
Didn't make it appreciably slower.
Don't forget the other cause of a sooty exhaust is burning oil. Something enfields excell at for a variety of reasons.
You can carb convert the FI models but you have to replace the whole ignition system (includig the rotor so it can be set up with a standard CDI). So you're looking at £4-500.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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| Iain. |
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Iain.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 10 years, 84 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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